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Posted: 6/5/2004 6:29:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2004 6:34:11 AM EST by GOAREP]
Excellent info Troy! Can you do likewise for .308?

www.gunowners.org. (type in "Larry Pratt's letter to the NRA") in the search engine.
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Posted: 8/4/2004 11:47:05 PM EST
Great information Troy!
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Posted: 8/5/2004 4:18:44 AM EST
Ammo FAQ: www.ammo-oracle.com
(Old) Mag FAQ: magfaq.tripod.com
Barrel? Go CHROME or go home.
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Posted: 8/17/2004 11:33:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 2:39:21 PM EST by SSR-99]
IMO, Troy's initial research was very good in making his AR comparison chart. I myself am a Bushmaster AR fan, and believe they have the best AR manufacturer website on the internet. They seem to give more specific product info and more insight than any other AR manufacturer publicly offers. (Though they too can improve it by updating it with even more insight on their products and firm)

Colt was once the definite civilian AR king, not only in sales, but also in product quality. As time went by, other AR manufacturers joined in as serious competitors. Some of these AR firms grew quickly in their production abilities, their product quality, and in their popularity. So much so that Bushmaster gained the status of being Colts main civilian AR rival. Not settling for just rivaling, Bushmaster even surpassed the Colt company in certain areas (with them becoming the number one selling civilian AR in the country). For a while there it seemed that Colt's biggest civilian AR competitor would continue being the Bushmaster firm, with Armalite holding a distant third place.


With that said, Troy's chart is one that probably needs constant updating...... Why?........... because things can change real fast in the civilian AR market. While Troy's Chart still correctly places Colt and Bushmaster as the top selling dogs (and shows some of the reasons why), other AR firms are making great strides to get larger shares of the civilian AR market. Armalite & RRA are just a couple of these firms making these big strides. Bushmaster does not have anywhere near the amount of domestic and foreign Government sales references that Colt has, but in turn, companies like Armalite & RRA do not have the amount of domestic and foreign Government sales references that Bushmaster has. These types of sales are feathers in the manufacturers caps. Not only does Colt still produce a quality AR product, but they also have all of those feathers in their caps, and these feathers are a powerful thing. As an example, RRA was chugging along pretty well with their quality AR components and rifles, but once they got that DEA feather in their cap, civilian popularity almost automatically boosted for them. People just love seeing that the firm that builds their civilian AR, is also making something similar for some well known Government agency.

In the past, Colt has had the bulk of the US M-16 military contracts, though Fabrique National hooked a big one when being awarded with their M16-A2 contract. Colt used its influences and some good business sense, and used a new updated M-16 carbine design (the M-4) as a way to get back in the game. Their military M-4 contract ended up being another big feather in the cap of the Colt firm. I believe the only other firm that was able to supply the military with some early M-4's under a US contract, was Bushmaster. Of course Colt put a quick stop to any more orders for the Bushmaster made M-4's, since Colt had/has the rights to the upgraded M-4 design.
Then there is the Bushmaster firm itself, which gained U.S. military contractor status by meeting the Governments requirements, which at the time (and maybe still required) included them to be set up for manufacturing the M-203 grenade launcher. Bushmaster has made small batches of US Government contract weapons for such agencies as the DOD, DOE, and has manufactured weapons for police agencies all over the country, (as well as also having supplied weapons to fill foreign government contracts). With RRA getting the latest small, but significant contract with the DEA, it really gave them a boost in the civilian desirability department. I'm sure other AR manufacturers have supplied the Government and/or large police agencies with AR/M16 type weapons.

First and foremost, a gun has to be of good quality (no feather will totally overide that), and most of the guns coming from firms like Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, RRA, and many others AR firms, are just that....... good quality.
But, newly placed feathers in a company's cap, as well as adding more features to their product lines, can make for big changes to that chart put up by our friend Troy.

What may have been the best in features, best in overall quality, or had the most feathers in their caps, may not be advantages held by the same company today.

What I'm saying is this, while I do like Troy's AR comparison chart, it does not mean that the chart will still reflect the current situation, since the AR landscape seems to change so constantly.

Nothing a little bit of updating here and there can't resolve


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Posted: 8/17/2004 11:35:19 AM EST
tag
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:14:53 AM EST
I understand the often poor public opinion of Colt. In their defense, maybe we should examine the larger picture. There are unseen cost in manufacturing their products that some other companies simply do not have, YET. Colt has been in business for 168 years! We all want, and think we deserve, a healthy retirement after putting our time in with the "company", right? Take a minute to think about the thousands of people Colt has been paying retirement benefits to. Now compare that to workforce of their, Colt's, competitors. How many people do you think have retired from RRA and DPMS combined? I'll bet Colt has more cafeteria employees than Randy Luth has retirees. A similar example can be seen in the automotive manufacturing industry. When Honda entered the automotive marketplace in the early 70's they were economy cars. They are now paying salaries to thousands of people who no longer produce goods or services for the company, and they don't sell cars cheap anymore. Another aspect of Colt's corporate structure that is often overlooked, Colt produces more than one product line. Every room in the house can't be perfect, but it is still a damn nice house.
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Posted: 8/18/2004 7:18:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 7:42:11 AM EST by SSR-99]
Rick,

I don't know what it was that made you feel that a post defending Colt was needed. It may have been because of previous posts made by other members on this thread.

Since my post was the last one before you posted, I just wanted to say that the statements I made in my post were not negative about Colt or any other AR manufacturer. The statements in my post were made to explain how an AR company's status can change pretty quickly. Such things as overall quality, the materials a company uses, them having domestic or foreign Government contracts, them having domestic or foreign large police agency contracts, them offering many different features, them having good informational websites and catalogs, them offering good customer service, their warranty, them offering many accessories, offering quality spare components, their direct public interaction (which may include offering product information via forum boards and other methods), are just some of the ways that an AR firm may gain ground in this type of a market. There are a lot of variables, and Colt actually excells with many of those variables (but not in all of them). This is probably why they still hold solid ground in the civilian AR-15 market. Again, I don't know what drove you to add a post defending the Colt firm right after I put my post up, but it should not have been because of my statements, since I feel my post was not in any way unfair to the AR firms that I mentioned (including Colt).
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Posted: 9/15/2004 5:32:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 5:45:19 PM EST by mototard]
Nice list.
Here is an email from DPMS:
Allen
Our M4 barrels are machined to the MIL-Spec's with the exception of the 1-1/2"
extra length to make them civalian legal length. The pre ban thread barrel is
standard 1/2x28 threads and the Miculek comp will fit.They are called heavy but
they are contoured lighter under the handgaurd per spec.We do offer these
barrels with and without chrome lining[chrome adds $20.00 to catalog price.]
These barrels are compatable with any Mil Spec upper receiver.
Thanx
Dave
DPMS Tech Sales
So you can get chrome lined barrels for a little extra.

Thing to rember to is RRA has a higher self on the rear take down pin. No accu-wedge, which isnt a big deal.
Also RRAs fiinish isnt real hard, chips easily.
I have 2 RRA they seem to be well built.
Also have a Bushie only problem was charging handle broke after about 400 rnds(they shipped me another no charge)
Also have a DPMS, best fit and finish of them all. No problems at all
Rember some DPMS have match chambers and you will have fail to extract if you use cheap ammo that isnt sized proper. Shoot good ammo and no problems since the ammo change. About 3500rnds.

Warning about cheap ammo from BM's site:

If you shoot enough cheap ammo, it'll happen to you. The rifle is just ticking along, then BAM! The bolt is stuck forward and the magazine blows down out of the rifle. Looking up into the mag. well, you see a crack in the bottom of the bolt carrier. You've just had a case head separation. If you are shooting reloads or surplus ammo, you're out of luck. If you have factory ammo, and the box the shells came in, you can write a letter or call the factory, and they will tell you what to do. We have seen case head failures from overloaded ammo, and from bad brass. There is almost no difference in the result, though. When the case head fails in an AR, the gases flow back into the action. They usually bend or break the extractor, flow along the extractor slot, and crack or break the bottom pad of the bolt carrier. The gases vent out mostly through the mag well, usually wrecking the magazine on the way out. Sometimes the bolt cracks, sometimes it doesn't. In extreme cases, it can crack or break the barrel extension. Many times the bolt catch will break off and the upper receiver will crack by the ejection port. Usually the lower will survive, but sometimes they crack somewhere at the top of the mag well, usually in the front. The front half of the case will remain stuck in the chamber. This is a sure sign of an ammunition failure. If the rifle had failed, the bolt lugs would all be sheared off, the stock would be blown off, the gun would probably be blown in half. We've never seen it happen, and we hope we never do.

I have a list somewhere from DPMS & Bushie of what brand ammo not to use.(basically just use factory U.S. made ammo) If I can find it I'll post it.
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Posted: 11/16/2004 10:43:28 AM EST
I am looking to purchase an AR-15 for USPSA competition. There is a lot of information out there for the various producers of the AR-15. Rock River seems to be an up and comming rifle in this area. What are some features to look for when purchasing an AR-15.
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Posted: 11/30/2004 11:42:36 AM EST
Troy,

I really liked how you put the chart together, but... Isn't there always a but? Okay here's the question...

Why wasn't Fulton Armory listed? Don't they produce fine shooting AR's or FAR's as it were?

The reason I am asking is because I am in the market for a new shooting tool, and with so many options out there, I would hate to throw down a grand or better only to find out I should have made a better choice. This would be my first AR and I want to make the right choice. I realize there are an abundent amount of opinions out there, but I am more interested in factual information to help form my purchase desicion.

I am looking at purchasing a shooting tool that can be used in competition and one that looks angryhould
So with that said, how do you make an educated decision as to who's products to buy?
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Posted: 1/31/2005 3:20:59 PM EST
E.R. Shaw make barrels for Colt. Are these barrels finished before going to colt or after?
I curious because the chart says colt makes it's barrels in-house.

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Posted: 2/1/2005 5:20:44 AM EST
looks like rock river arms doesn't look as crappy as I initially thought.. i was looking at one of their m4's the other day.
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Posted: 2/9/2005 12:40:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2005 12:44:20 PM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By Troy:
I'm working on building this quick-reference chart. It covers the BASIC configurations available from all of the major manufacturers (those who primarily build complete rifles), and generally only includes cataloged items in order to make a readable chart. I've got a thread in AR Discussion for Additions/Corrections:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=146534

And now, here's the chart:

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=3425

-Troy



Looks very good, but why so few brands? there so many other quality brands out there that sell complete, branded rifles like Fulton Armory, Wilson Combat, and DSArms, for example.
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Posted: 2/18/2005 9:59:10 PM EST
Seems like I have owned around 9 or 10 Colt Prebans. I can remember 5 at one time. Sold them all when prices were really up there a while back. Will I buy another one? When I look at RRA or Bushmaster and the quality they are putting into their rifles for the price, I just have to addmit they are a good buy. Yea, I would give Colt a thought if they would go back to spec and not use off size parts and blah blah blah. You know I hate to say it but as long as they have a military contract they could care less about the what the public wants.
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Posted: 4/12/2005 4:58:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By Troy:
I'm working on building this quick-reference chart. It covers the BASIC configurations available from all of the major manufacturers (those who primarily build complete rifles), and generally only includes cataloged items in order to make a readable chart. I've got a thread in AR Discussion for Additions/Corrections:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=146534

And now, here's the chart:

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=3425

-Troy



Looks very good, but why so few brands? there so many other quality brands out there that sell complete, branded rifles like Fulton Armory, Wilson Combat, and DSArms, for example.



The chart link isn't working.
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Posted: 4/12/2005 9:51:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Darkhellmutt:
The chart link isn't working.



see the tack at the top of GD, Goatboy should have the photoserver back up soonish.
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MORE EXPLOSIONS!
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Posted: 5/5/2005 10:36:13 PM EST
Ammo FAQ: www.ammo-oracle.com
(Old) Mag FAQ: magfaq.tripod.com
Barrel? Go CHROME or go home.
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Posted: 5/21/2005 10:17:11 PM EST
Troy, you might want to think about adding Doublestar when you get a chance...

I'm not exactly sure what their production numbers are, but they should be getting up there now.

Forrest

By the way, thanks for the table...

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Posted: 6/17/2005 10:31:58 PM EST
who the heck is this wilson company that makes barrels? every time I'm at a gun show and a barrel is unmarked they say its a wilson. Are wilson barrels always unmarked? Why the heck would any company not mark the twist rate on a barrel or put a letter.
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Posted: 7/11/2005 10:36:20 PM EST
I was at the range and a new AR owner was showing me his newly-aquired preban Olympic and he asked me how the brand was. I was like "It should work well." I then saw him negotiate the purchase of a used Sigma pistol from another guy.
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Posted: 7/19/2005 5:04:12 PM EST
What is DCM/CMP?
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Posted: 7/19/2005 9:43:49 PM EST
Ammo FAQ: www.ammo-oracle.com
(Old) Mag FAQ: magfaq.tripod.com
Barrel? Go CHROME or go home.
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Posted: 7/22/2005 5:57:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
I'm working on building this quick-reference chart. It covers the BASIC configurations available from all of the major manufacturers (those who primarily build complete rifles), and generally only includes cataloged items in order to make a readable chart. I've got a thread in AR Discussion for Additions/Corrections:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=146534

And now, here's the chart:

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=3425

-Troy



Outstanding, Troy! Thank you for producing this chart.
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Posted: 7/23/2005 11:59:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By _DR:
Looks very good, but why so few brands? there so many other quality brands out there that sell complete, branded rifles like Fulton Armory, Wilson Combat, and DSArms, for example.



I didn't add them because they are custom/boutique brands that only sell a couple hundred rifles per year, max, and few of these are a common configuration that could be compared to a "factory" setup from the larger companies. Thus, the folks that buy them either hyper-research them and know the answers, or they impulse-buy based on the brand name and don't care.

When they reach 1,000 factory-complete ARs per year, I'll add them to the list.

-Troy




LMT?
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Posted: 10/2/2005 3:36:43 PM EST
Ya forgot the loose fitting cheap crap colum for dpms.....
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Posted: 11/4/2005 3:42:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Taskism:
What is DCM/CMP?


Director of Civilian Marksmanship/Civilian Marksmanship Program
I cannot guarantee the authenticity of what is posted above.
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Posted: 11/14/2005 9:43:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Buddyman:
Ha! Hesse Arms doesn't even have a website!

How hard is it these days to get web hosting? They must be in some kind of trouble, or run by a bunch of fat rednecks that smell like cigarette smoke and have a filthy workplace.

You know what I'm talking about.



I haven't met a fat redneck that smelled like smoke in a filthy old truck yet that wouldnt stop in the rain to help you change a tire or get pulled out of the mud. Try using white trash instead.
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Posted: 1/1/2006 10:50:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 10:56:10 PM EST by rickbones]
If you shoot enough cheap ammo, it'll happen to you. The rifle is just ticking along, then BAM! The bolt is stuck forward and the magazine blows down out of the rifle. Looking up into the mag. well, you see a crack in the bottom of the bolt carrier. You've just had a case head separation. If you are shooting reloads or surplus ammo, you're out of luck. If you have factory ammo, and the box the shells came in, you can write a letter or call the factory, and they will tell you what to do. We have seen case head failures from overloaded ammo, and from bad brass. There is almost no difference in the result, though. When the case head fails in an AR, the gases flow back into the action. They usually bend or break the extractor, flow along the extractor slot, and crack or break the bottom pad of the bolt carrier. The gases vent out mostly through the mag well, usually wrecking the magazine on the way out. Sometimes the bolt cracks, sometimes it doesn't. In


extreme cases, it can crack or break the barrel extension. Many times the bolt catch will break off and the upper receiver will crack by the ejection port. Usually the lower will survive, but sometimes they crack somewhere at the top of the mag well, usually in the front. The front half of the case will remain stuck in the chamber. This is a sure sign of an ammunition failure. If the rifle had failed, the bolt lugs would all be sheared off, the stock would be blown off, the gun would probably be blown in half. We've never seen it happen, and we hope we never do.

I have a list somewhere from DPMS & Bushie of what brand ammo not to use.(basically just use factory U.S. made ammo) If I can find it I'll post it.


damn!! that sounds worse than a round failure. I was in the Corps and we put a lot of rounds down range but I never heard or seen a rifle do that. if a cartrage failed the ugly part usualy follows the path of least resistance and goes out the barrel then your left with a stove pipe where a new round gets forced into whats left of the old one. then you have problems.[
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Posted: 1/20/2006 3:03:51 PM EST
This would be nice to have it updated with current stats as its 3 years old and shows RRA as only 1% of the market anyone have current stats to update this chart on first page?
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Posted: 1/24/2006 3:03:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By blake711:
This would be nice to have it updated with current stats as its 3 years old and shows RRA as only 1% of the market anyone have current stats to update this chart on first page?



I'd second that motion.

These are outdated and in some cases wrong.
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Posted: 1/24/2006 4:42:56 PM EST
Ammo FAQ: www.ammo-oracle.com
(Old) Mag FAQ: magfaq.tripod.com
Barrel? Go CHROME or go home.
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:11:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
Sure, no problem. All you gotta do is call ATF and tell them to release their reports earlier...



-Troy



You'd do that for us? (He said, looking for the tongue-in-cheek icon).



Seriously, this list is a good resource, and I appreciate your making it available to us.

I'm sure that the next updates will show considerably increased marketshare for RRA (although, much of RRA's stuff is sold as separate uppers and lowers, which are treated differently from complete firearms).

I'm also guessing the Doublestar will, at least, be on the chart...

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Posted: 2/9/2006 12:07:07 PM EST
I've had excellent quality from both Oly and Armalite--receivers machined like glass and well-finished. Bushy, eh, not so great, but their reputation generally is excellent.

Got a PWA receiver with pin holes that are a bit loose.

Colt, I've always found to be good but overpriced. Guys come round the shows selling them, wanting $1300 and saying, "But it's a Colt!"

Yeah, and? The name doesn't justify an extra $400 used over the new price of something else. Sorry.

RRA are exceptional. However, I've put a few together and found they're marginally different spec than the rest--detent holes can be deeper, and buffer tube is not quite the same. I recommend buying a COMPLETE rifle from RRA. You won't be sorry. I don't think you'll be sorry with just a receiver, either, but you'll have to fit stuff to it at times.

Nice chart.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:10:08 PM EST
I bet with DEA and Homeland Security giving their contracts to RRA, RRA has more than <1% of the market now. They are a company truely on the rise. Putting out a terrific product. That's why they can do the lifetime warranty.
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Posted: 2/13/2006 9:46:50 AM EST
I have yet to see this occur on a Colt rifle, but I have seen it on a B/M gun and someones frankenstein gun (built from gun show parts).
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Posted: 2/14/2006 2:25:31 PM EST
for those that are not old enough...........
colt has larger pins and a block...and a few other mismatches to the rest of the world
BECAUSE
colt TRIED TO SELL YOUR INDIVIDUAL GUN RIGHTS DOWN THE TOLIET TO KEEP THEMSELVES IN BIZ!!!

if you have an ounce of support for the bill of rights you should avoid colt products like the plague !!

its not a case of quality or types of produces, its a case of a manufacture working with the anti gun world in an effort to keep thenselves in $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

dont spend your money on anti gun companies !

dont tell me how great your colt is, because all you are doing is supporting the anti gun movement.

yes they sell guns to public today, but what makes you think that for a buck they would not turn face and kiss the butts of politicians and the anti's to stay in biz ?? they have already done it once!!

support companies that support shooting!!!
Only accurate rifles are interesting

(3 shots 100yds, 0.116" custom ar10)
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Posted: 2/15/2006 1:07:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By ar10ar15man:
for those that are not old enough...........
colt has larger pins and a block...and a few other mismatches to the rest of the world
BECAUSE
colt TRIED TO SELL YOUR INDIVIDUAL GUN RIGHTS DOWN THE TOLIET TO KEEP THEMSELVES IN BIZ!!!

if you have an ounce of support for the bill of rights you should avoid colt products like the plague !!

its not a case of quality or types of produces, its a case of a manufacture working with the anti gun world in an effort to keep thenselves in $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

dont spend your money on anti gun companies !

dont tell me how great your colt is, because all you are doing is supporting the anti gun movement.

yes they sell guns to public today, but what makes you think that for a buck they would not turn face and kiss the butts of politicians and the anti's to stay in biz ?? they have already done it once!!

support companies that support shooting!!!



Yup...

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Posted: 2/15/2006 7:53:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar10ar15man:
for those that are not old enough...........
..........blah blah blah
!!!



That is a most uninformed, believe-anything-you-hear, crock of s**t .

I do not doubt that some Colt Bashers believe it

But is simply is not true. Common sense would recognize the difference between and "anti-gun" company- and one that has fought tooth and nail for 170 years to put firearms in the hands of US citizens.

What minor changes Colt made to its AR15's, was done as a compromise to stave off company suicide in the face of crippling law-suits by those who blame the gun maker for the crime and not the criminal

It has been our court system that has been more than willing to kill off big gun companies, if thats what it took.

Did the lack of a bayonet lug, different sized fire control pins, or a brake instead of a flash hider - or even calling it a Sporter instead of an AR15 do a damn thing toward keeping us from enjoying the AR?

Hardly.


Don't want, don't 'like' or cannot afford a Colt? Thats fine, there are plenty of other very good options. But don't play the anti-gun card.

Stop spreading that drivel.
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Posted: 2/16/2006 10:50:14 PM EST
excellent chart. I happen to know that ASA offers a lifetime warranty to the original buyer of the weapon. The reason I know this. I own one.
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Posted: 2/17/2006 1:19:58 AM EST
Ammo FAQ: www.ammo-oracle.com
(Old) Mag FAQ: magfaq.tripod.com
Barrel? Go CHROME or go home.
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Posted: 3/6/2006 11:37:08 PM EST
1st Thanks Troy for the effort!

ar10ar15man said "for those that are not old enough............"

Well I am.

redfisher said "crock of s**t.

redfisher you are wrong!!! I have been paying attention for the last 35 years. Colt did not give us big pins and blocks to stave off law suits. Those changes came before the law suit frenzie had even started. They did it to cater to the anti crowd in the hope that if you give up a little you can save yourself and the Govt. contracts. The antis don't want a little, they want it all, a little at a time !!!!!!!! Colt bought the good gun bad gun BS. Colt is in trouble because for years they have not cared enough about the civilian market and they are close to a history lesson because of it. Sure Colt quality is good. It better be for what you pay! Some people only want Colt and that is fine. Colt buys from good suppliers, but then slips you plastic when you should be getting alloy or steel and gets away with it!

I like my AR to be mil-spec, so I put them together myself.he
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Posted: 3/23/2006 12:59:00 AM EST
very nice chart,thank you
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Posted: 3/23/2006 5:41:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By bushytale:
1st Thanks Troy for the effort!

ar10ar15man said "for those that are not old enough............"

Well I am.

redfisher said "crock of s**t.

redfisher you are wrong!!! I have been paying attention for the last 35 years. Colt did not give us big pins and blocks to stave off law suits. Those changes came before the law suit frenzie had even started. They did it to cater to the anti crowd in the hope that if you give up a little you can save yourself and the Govt. contracts. The antis don't want a little, they want it all, a little at a time !!!!!!!! Colt bought the good gun bad gun BS. Colt is in trouble because for years they have not cared enough about the civilian market and they are close to a history lesson because of it. Sure Colt quality is good. It better be for what you pay! Some people only want Colt and that is fine. Colt buys from good suppliers, but then slips you plastic when you should be getting alloy or steel and gets away with it!

I like my AR to be mil-spec, so I put them together myself.

Just trying to set the record straight!!!!!!!

Billy



what is it you feel was wrong, Bushytail?

The motivation behind sear blocks bayo-lugs, pin sizes?

Law suit influence on civilian designs?

Colt being institutionally anti-gun?

when I made/make references to Colt's policies or whether civilians can buy them or not , it does tend to address all of the broad-brush perspectives that many on this board use to describe Colt the company.

If that isnt your view, i'd like to hear your counter-point on it.

We can agree to respectfully disagree.

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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:27:00 AM EST
ar10ar15man said about Colt "support companies that support shooting!!!"

Absolutely....... Colt is not owned or run by the same people that did not support our sport in
the '80s so we should not hold that against them now.

redfisher to better answer your questions;

the motivation behind Colts sear block, pin size change and removing the bayonet lug came
from Colt wanting to stay in good graces with the political crowd that gave us the 1987 import
ban on military weapon features and the '94 assault weapon ban. Colt was the only company
to change their production before they had to in '94.

the lawsuits that came up much later had no effect on Colt production.

Colt's new ownership and management has not shown any anti-gun tendencies that I know of.
They have also produced AR-15s with the GI pin sizes and no sear blocks.

Of course they would want civilians to buy their products. Those times when there are no
govt. contracts would be disaster without the civilian market.

We can agree and disagree.

Billy

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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:41:44 AM EST
What is a name brand anyway? This stuff is all mil-spec, it's the barrel that counts, not the lower. DMPS, by far, makes the most accurate uppers of all the stoner clone companies. They 'de-stress' the barrel and I've never seen a DMPS that was not copper fouled that didn't shoot well, and I mean REALLY well.

I don’t see much point in shooting reloads in my AR’s, but I’ve chunked thousands of rounds of wolf, even the old lacquered stuff, down ranges all over Louisiana, Texas, and Ohio and never had a problem, not one. Why? Because I had people that knew what they were doing building my AR's and showing me how to set them up and maintain them.

In regards to failures with the rifle, it's like the old flying adage where 'pilot error' is usually what causes it.

I'll bet anyone in here that I could be an inexpensive essential arms forged lower, put hand-me down lower parts and bolt carrier in it, and by a $400 DPMS upper assy and shoot as good as, if not better, than anything on the market, including Wilson, JP, Bear, etc.

I'll put money on it.
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Posted: 4/5/2006 5:09:30 PM EST
Good points Bushy-Tale.

and to you and Troy both.........

sorry for the forked-tongue replies

I have really been on the rag lately, and when I come back and read this- it embarrasses me to an extent. There are better ways to establish an argument than to argue.

Lot of work goes into compiling these stats -which are 100% believed to be accurate at the time.

and as for Colt, BushyTale................

I am not carrying their water, but I do believe they are the most blindly bashed company I have ever seen.

People rip them a new one, just because it seems fashionable or they saw someone else do it. Its hard to tell who is doing that or has some real world experience.

There.

I feel better

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Posted: 4/5/2006 5:14:25 PM EST
Again, these parts are all mil-spec, and for the most part interchangeable. The barrel is the most important part of the AR, and I have found Wilson barrels good, and DPMS complete uppers to be the only way to go.

Get a 20” 1–in-9” twist stainless DPMS upper, and you will have no problem shooting sub MOA out to 400 yards with a good trigger, bipod, and quality optics. And no, it wont matter who's lower you are using so long as it is up to spec.
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Posted: 4/14/2006 11:00:17 AM EST
I just whipped this up:

Wildboar - "paint em up like big scary clowns. Maybe put a huge chainsaw on one arm."


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Posted: 6/1/2006 6:36:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2006 6:42:52 PM EST by Another-Bill]

Nice chart, but please note that ArmaLite does offer 1:8 twist also.


ArmaLiter

I'll take it you are a fan of Armalite.

Sure they do, they offer the 1/8 twist in their Stainless Steel barrels on their fine CMP/DCM Match rifle and I believe on their target or "T" models. Rock River offers a 1/8 Stainless tube on their CMP/DCM and I would imagine DPMS does something like this as well.
Bushmaster has the 1/8 in a chrome moly, 4150, tube on their CMP/DCM and their Varminter and their new Predator model. They state 4150 is harder than stainless steel but offer stainless steel as an option on the Varminter.

I'd guess Troy has chosen to not include this as he has a separate box for CMP/DCM rifles and those who shoot the sport expect a faster rate for the heaviest bullets used in the sport.

Good Luck
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Posted: 6/1/2006 11:53:45 PM EST
Anyone else remember those Colt ar15 ads from the 60s,70s and 80s,?
about how colt rifles have defended the free world for 25 years,etc etc.showing a rancher watching for predators with his trusty colt ar15a1/a2? sad to say,colt left us long ago.
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