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Munition
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Posted: 10/7/2012 1:02:36 PM
Just purchased some. I have all the tools and equipment to do this myself. There are plenty of tutorials and I feel confident. Quick question though, is the sand blasting the old anodized finish off necessary? One guy is telling me its not.
TheTacticalCoyote
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Posted: 10/7/2012 5:05:15 PM
I blasted a lower once and was told I did not have to either. I want to know for sure though as well.
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bsmith918
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Posted: 10/7/2012 6:23:56 PM
I've done it, but it isn't necessary and can actually be a negative due to the extra layer of protection that the anodizing provides. Also, if there is any teflon n the receiver, it MUST be removed. Have fun!
TheTacticalCoyote
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Posted: 10/7/2012 8:31:37 PM
So just degrease and spray away?
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Munition
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Posted: 10/7/2012 9:00:53 PM
Yeah is it necessary or not? Standard anodizing doesn't have teflon in it I'm sure.
jforbush
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Posted: 10/7/2012 9:55:42 PM
[Last Edit: 10/7/2012 9:58:28 PM by jforbush]
This is a big debate....I will tell you this. I blast every single part that I Cerakote. That includes anodize parts. 99.9 percent of the time the anno comes off. The argument that a extra layer of extra protection...its a non issue. Call NIC directly....they will tell you to blast and it the anno come off it comes off. It is always better to start with fresh, bare, clean metal. This is the way I do it and this is the way NIC will tell you to do it.


The most important thing is to start with a clean, degreased, and blasted part. If you don't blast the surface then you don't give a profile for the Cerakote to adhere to. Don't use glass beads....will do more harm then good. To do Cerakote properly you need to invest a bit of money in proper equipment and take the time to learn all the equipment and how to work with the Cerakote.

ALASKANFIRE
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Posted: 10/7/2012 10:41:40 PM
Originally Posted By jforbush:
This is a big debate....I will tell you this. I blast every single part that I Cerakote. That includes anodize parts. 99.9 percent of the time the anno comes off. The argument that a extra layer of extra protection...its a non issue. Call NIC directly....they will tell you to blast and it the anno come off it comes off. It is always better to start with fresh, bare, clean metal. This is the way I do it and this is the way NIC will tell you to do it.


The most important thing is to start with a clean, degreased, and blasted part. If you don't blast the surface then you don't give a profile for the Cerakote to adhere to. Don't use glass beads....will do more harm then good. To do Cerakote properly you need to invest a bit of money in proper equipment and take the time to learn all the equipment and how to work with the Cerakote.



I have no doubt it makes for a better painting surface which is where their opinion comes from. I wonder about the strength on the lower. If you called 10 different gun manufacturers and asked them if it was ok to strip the annodizing I doubt any of them would say it is ok.
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jforbush
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Posted: 10/7/2012 10:47:58 PM
Well...I have talked with a few manufactures that have sent me there lowers "in the white". I talked in depth with them and they didn't see any issue with it. The big debate is weather anodizing does anything to harden the aluminum. From what I have read, learned from talking with the manufactures and seen is that it does not. Anodizing is not magic....it is just another coating over metal. I have blasted many a type 2 and type 3 anno and they both come right off with 120 git aluminum oxide. Take a Cerakoted lower and a type 3 anodized lower...now throw them in a gravel pile and kick them around for about 5 min....they will both be worn and will both look like hell. Cerakote is not magic....it is a coating. Does it have better chemical resistance, better wear resistance and come in more colors and options....yes it does on all accounts.
mrrick
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Posted: 10/7/2012 10:50:43 PM
removing anodizing removes some of the strength of the part. it is a "hard coat", it prtoects the metal.

smack a piece of non anodized aluminum and one that is, with something that has an edge. see which one holds up better.
I wouldnt remove the coating to apply cerakote. and I never had when I used it before. turned out good.
jforbush
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Posted: 10/7/2012 11:32:07 PM
can you please explain to me and show me how anodizing removes some of the strength of a part??? Its a hard coat that protects the metal....yea so is Cerakote... Your "test" is also flawed....of course a non "coated" part if smacked will not hold up as well as a "coated" one. That is like saying that a handgun will not shot as far as a sniper rifle at distance. Of course....apples and oranges.

Munition
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Posted: 10/8/2012 12:36:05 AM
Originally Posted By jforbush:
can you please explain to me and show me how anodizing removes some of the strength of a part??? Its a hard coat that protects the metal....yea so is Cerakote... Your "test" is also flawed....of course a non "coated" part if smacked will not hold up as well as a "coated" one. That is like saying that a handgun will not shot as far as a sniper rifle at distance. Of course....apples and oranges.



Weak analogy but I get your point I guess lol. A coating on a surface always acts as a buffer for impact against another surface. I just wonder if the Cerakote will "stick" to the lower and be a durable and wear resistant if the anodizing isn't removed. I have all the equipment, except a sand blaster. I've got a buddy who has one that I may be able to use, but I've never used one before. Just wondering how necessary that step is.
jforbush
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Posted: 10/8/2012 8:13:25 AM
The step is very necessary..... and yea I could have come up with a better analogy! :)

Munition
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Posted: 10/8/2012 1:15:43 PM
could I just put the stuff under a wire disk on my grinding wheel? It would peel it and make it shiny, or is that not helpful?
jforbush
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:00:00 PM
I would get it blasted man....its what the company says to do to get best adhesion.
Munition
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:05:31 PM
I'm doing two stripped lowers, two stripped uppers, and two rails. That is it. Because of location etc, its more efficient for me to do the sand blasting first, then the acetone soaking. Does it matter if I blast them first?
jforbush
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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:06:40 PM
As long as they are pretty clean you can blast first...the idea is to keep you media as clean as you can. Blast and then soak in acetone...that will work.
enforcer22
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Posted: 10/8/2012 7:23:15 PM
[Last Edit: 10/8/2012 7:25:10 PM by enforcer22]
Originally Posted By Munition:
Originally Posted By jforbush:
can you please explain to me and show me how anodizing removes some of the strength of a part??? Its a hard coat that protects the metal....yea so is Cerakote... Your "test" is also flawed....of course a non "coated" part if smacked will not hold up as well as a "coated" one. That is like saying that a handgun will not shot as far as a sniper rifle at distance. Of course....apples and oranges.



Weak analogy but I get your point I guess lol. A coating on a surface always acts as a buffer for impact against another surface. I just wonder if the Cerakote will "stick" to the lower and be a durable and wear resistant if the anodizing isn't removed. I have all the equipment, except a sand blaster. I've got a buddy who has one that I may be able to use, but I've never used one before. Just wondering how necessary that step is.


As Jeff stated blasting will greatly increase adheasion of the coating.

Per NIC as quoted from their application manual "Remove all coatings, oils, and contaminants from substrate with either a de-greasing chemical and/or by heating substrate to temperatures high enough to remove coatings or contaminants."

If you do not want to remove the anodizing I would recommend at a minimum lightly blasting the surface and high contact areas. As far as hardness of the coating CeraKote "H" series has a 9 pencil hardness rating. Keep in mind any finish is only as good as the person who put it on. I have seen type 2 and type 3 anodizing, CeraKote, KG 2400 series, and even Park that came off in large patches with one light blast in the cabinet. A well made aluminum lower receiver does not require anodizing to be durable. There are several manufaturers and many custom builders who use CeraKote and KG directly over in the white parts. I am certin that they would not do something that would make them liable in the event of a catrostrophic faulire. Just my .2 cents.
Joe Larson
L.T.M. Refinishing, 07 FFL
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visit us on the web @ www.larsontactical.com
jforbush
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Posted: 10/8/2012 9:49:35 PM
Thanks Joe! :)
Munition
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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:04:01 PM
Ok so here's an update. Got a sand blaster I could barrow. The stuff inside looks like it could be about 20-30 mesh silica sand. Which is bacially aluminum oxide. The stuff looks like its about 60 grit sand paper. kinda like this:



However I wonder if this stuff is too course. Don't know till I try it, does anyone have experience with any of this. The other option is I could go to Ace Hardware and purchase some 70 mesh stuff which is much finer. It resembles 120 grit like sand paper. Here is a picture close to what it looks like.




Not sure what to do here. Don't want to spend money on things I wont need

As a side note, I spoke with a guy locally that does Cerakoting firearms etc. He said that he uses 20 mesh silica sand, and its fine. So I'm just looking for a second opinion is all. He also stated that acetone isn't fully necessary for degreasing. He uses Simple Green Degreaser and says it does a fine job, and its cheaper than acetone.

Thoughts?
jforbush
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Posted: 10/10/2012 9:01:37 PM
Not sure on the blasting media as I have never used it. I will say that for a degreasing agent I use Break Clean....it degrease's like a mother and leaves zero residue. Simple Green...I would be concerned about leaving a residue.

There is a lot to be said about following the guidelines of the people that make the product.....that is what I do and I can't speak for others so.....
Baywatch-Arms
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Posted: 10/10/2012 9:51:19 PM
I would take all the finish off. You need a good base for it to bond to. Don't use any grit larger than 100 grit. Do not use a wide spray pattern, you can end up with a lot of over spray. One more thing, spray it until you just see it wet out.
Munition
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Posted: 10/11/2012 12:44:10 AM
Some say you can damage the lower/upper etc if you sand blast it too much. What is in indication you are damaging it? how are you damaging it in the first place?
soulman
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Posted: 10/11/2012 8:07:53 AM
I'd degrease as mucha s you can before blasting. In auto painting they make a big deal about cleaning/degreasing before you sand since the sanding can actually drive oils/silicone etc into the metal. I would then degrease again before actual painting (get all your fingerprint oils etc off).
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dangerdan
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Posted: 10/12/2012 12:59:06 PM
If you think that stripping the anodizing off before you cerakote is a negative aspect because you will loose the anodizing protection properties..well...then what do you think the cerakote is for besides color?


Common sense guys....
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Munition
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Posted: 10/12/2012 3:57:59 PM
So does anyone have any suggestions on the sand?
dangerdan
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Posted: 10/12/2012 4:37:57 PM
Originally Posted By Munition:
So does anyone have any suggestions on the sand?


120 grit Aluminum Oxide

Don't use glass, it somewhat polishes the area where the glass hits, making it not a great surface for coating to adhere to.
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