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Posted: 8/10/2017 3:49:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 4:40:33 PM EDT
[#1]
nice write-up and good info.  

i've always used green but man, the WP tubes i've looked through are really crisp.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 5:01:31 PM EDT
[#2]
So the main take away is the WP "looks" brighter than green phosphor... Also, no offense you guys seem to be conflating WP with film-less a bit in the article. Any tube can built with a white output phosphor, I've got a gen2 tube with a WP output.

Personally I'm not real fond of WP, but that may be just my bias of using green for too long.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 5:19:52 PM EDT
[#3]
I appreciate the write-up, but could we discuss this a bit? I guess I am confused by this:
While green may be the most visible color to the human eye, white is the brightest color in the visible light spectrum. Simply changing the color of the phosphor screen from green to white provided an immediate jump in image brightness.
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Are you indicating that this jump in brightness is a good thing? The brighter white would also introduce additional Eye-splash, right?
If I understand correctly, amber filters work by decreasing the brightness of the output image, to grant the user decreased eye fatigue over prolonged use - Would this "brighter is better" stance also mean that amber filters are decreasing the device's performance?

As I understand it, you would be seeing the same level of noise in the image on two equally spec'd tubes - 1 WP and one Green. However the document indicates that the image with the WP tube would be brighter. Having that noise brighter or darker wouldn't exactly give the image any more clarity, would it? Is there a "perceived" increase in clarity or usability reported by users?

This stance confuses me a bit because it would be akin to saying turning the manual gain up increases the performance of a PVS-14, which I don't always find to be the case, and in many instances, I turn down the brightness to hide some of the noise/strikes.

I've had some ITT Pinnacle tubes that are eye scorching bright. They did not perform better than my L3 Filmless tubes that weren't as bright.

I think this is a great topic, and I'm trying to wrap my head around it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 6:22:42 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 6:53:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 6:56:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 6:58:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So the main take away is the WP "looks" brighter than green phosphor... Also, no offense you guys seem to be conflating WP with film-less a bit in the article. Any tube can built with a white output phosphor, I've got a gen2 tube with a WP output.

Personally I'm not real fond of WP, but that may be just my bias of using green for too long.
View Quote
At first I didn't like WP but I'm guessing it was because I was use to green. But then I checked it out more and really stated liking it. So much so I considered selling my green tubes for WP.

But then I really looked at the same image with the different tubes. I just see more oh damn what's the word....on the tip of my tongue lol. Contrast. That's it. But my eyes are retarded so that's just me.

One day I still might do it. I dunno. I'm not in as much of a rush anymore. Plus for my use?  I don't even need dual 14's let alone top of the line WP's.

Thermal first and then I'll revisit WP's
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 7:54:46 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:

Professionals in the US Military are only buying filmless white phosphor tubes.  They are not buying filmed white phosphor because a better technology exists.  The brighter white will always make an image look "better" regardless of generation, than a green tube.  As I said, the phosphor screen can be made any color.  They can make it pink.  But, changing the color is one thing.  Filmless technology is something else.  Filmless is really where it's at.  Even filmless green tubes are a huge upgrade.  The hugely increased amount of light to be amplified greatly increases the capability of the tube.

But in the end, US SOF are buying filmless white phosphor tubes.  They can buy whatever they want, but they choose to buy L-3 filmless WP for a reason.  This is the same reason we only offer L-3 Filmless WP tubes.  Other filmed Gen3 WP tubes cost the same as filmless, but offer a negligible performance upgrade considering the price jump.  We don't want to do a disservice to our customers by charging them such an upgrade price for lesser gain.  So yes, you can get WP in any flavor.  But true WP used by professionals comes in one flavor.  That is what the article is about.
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I get, it, but the way the article is written made it sound like WP=filmless, from my reading of it anyway (And I know thats not the case, you know thats not the case). I guess I'm down to being a literary critic .

And yup, Filmed<Thin film<filmless in terms of "brightness" even in green tubes.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 8:02:08 PM EDT
[#9]
All I know is that ive got 4 monoculars...three green ITT Night Enforcers...and one White L3 TNVC build....

...I will be buying L3 white from now on.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 8:05:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


At first I didn't like WP but I'm guessing it was because I was use to green. But then I checked it out more and really stated liking it. So much so I considered selling my green tubes for WP.

But then I really looked at the same image with the different tubes. I just see more oh damn what's the word....on the tip of my tongue lol. Contrast. That's it. But my eyes are retarded so that's just me.

One day I still might do it. I dunno. I'm not in as much of a rush anymore. Plus for my use?  I don't even need dual 14's let alone top of the line WP's.

Thermal first and then I'll revisit WP's
View Quote
Yeah, for me I think I'm just used to green and green/yellow ish. As an interesting historical tidbit, I have a set of pvs-5's specifically for aviation use that have blue/white ish phosphors. Those are weird but I like them and those are from the 80's.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 8:34:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
The following is a white paper our own Clasky has published a great read on a question we get asked daily.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/20140149_1235232106604283_1573950299649639826_n_zps3nhgfdmb.jpg

We are often asked about the difference between Green and White Phosphor Image Intensifier Tubes.  “Is white really worth the extra money?”  The answer is pretty subjective, but I always tell people “it depends.” It depends on your mission and it depends on your budget.  White phosphor image tubes are the latest evolution in the development of analog night vision technology used by U.S. Special Operations Forces (SOF).  There are other night vision developments that perform certain tasks really well and other tasks not-so-well.  Some will argue this or that is better, and manufacturers will tell you their product is always superior.  All we can say is there are certain technologies currently in use by the most elite national assets in the U.S. Arsenal, and certain technologies that are not in use by said units.  Currently, all night vision image intensifier tubes bought for combat use by USSOCOM, JSOC, USASOC, NSW, MARSOC, and any other US SOF unit, are L-3 Filmless White Phosphor.  But, that doesn’t necessarily mean it is the right choice for every buyer.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/image1_zpsktofruk7.jpg
TNVC/Night Goggles and U.S. Navy Vet, Sam, participating in night vision training in Florida (L-3 Filmless White Phosphor image).

What is white phosphor?  To understand WP, we first need to establish a basic understanding of how night vision works and how it came to be in its current configuration. Now, I’m not going to sit here and delve into minutia of science and write a doctoral thesis on this technology. Do I look like I work in a lab with beakers and test tubes?  Let’s be honest: most of us wouldn’t have the patience to read it all, let alone understand it.  So let’s break this down into layman’s terms.  Technology-aided night vision has been around in one form or another since World War II.  The original night vision required an active near-infrared light source in order to provide an image.  The allies placed giant spotlight-type illuminators on tanks that provided a near-IR illumination observed by the tank crew through a special battery-operated scope. The Nazis did the same, but also developed “miniaturized” versions that were man-portable.  The ZG1229 Vampir was an active infrared night vision device that was mounted to the Sturmgewehr 44 assault rifle.  It featured a large scope with a direct mounted infrared illuminator on top.  The unit was powered by a large battery worn in a backpack by the soldier.  All of these units were large, clumsy, and required active near-IR illuminators that could be seen as red lights from downrange. The US copied the “miniaturized” Vampir and deployed it against North Korea in the early 50’s during the Korean War. The overall configuration didn’t change much, and it looked just as ridiculous on top of an M3 Carbine as it did on an STG44.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/german_vampir_zpsvon5gog8.jpg
German Wehrmacht with Vampir (Gen0) Night Vision Scope. The unwieldy system would limit the soldier's ability to carry other field gear due to the "Ghostbusters Proton Pack" backpack that carried the systems' battery.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/Vampir_night_scope_zpswao0ot21.jpg
German ZG 1229 Vampir Scope with Active Near-Infrared Illuminator.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/m3_sniperscope_zps7ffhhb8b.jpg
U.S. M3 Carbine with integrated near-infrared sight system.  Only about 2100 were made.  The M3 had no open iron sights and was built specifically for night vision scopes.  

The Vietnam War saw the development and employment of the first true “starlight scopes” that did not require active IR that could be seen from downrange.  These giant scopes, such as the PVS-2, were issued to SOF and LRRP units and provided an advantage, though limited by the dense foliage of Southeast Asia, to US troops. The United States saw continual development of night vision technology throughout the Vietnam War and on through the 80’s and 90’s.  But technology without the means to properly test it, will always slow development. The original night vision devices of WWII and Vietnam were few and far between, only being issued to select specialized units.  They were giant leaps forward in battlefield science, but usable service data was hard to collect due to the extremely limited fielding of such devices.  Most Commanders paid little mind to night vision technology. While the continual development of night vision goggles and scopes went on through the 80’s and 90’s, a slightly different slant to the problem occurred: conflicts were too short to provide any good data on how to improve the technology.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/RonFillingham2_zpsvcsct56h.jpg
U.S. Army 9th Infantry Division sniper, Ron Fillingham, with Starlight Scope-equipped M-14 Rifle in Vietnam.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/pvs2_zps0yf0tlzl.jpg
M16A1 Rifle fitted with AN/PVS-2 Starlight Scope, circa early 1980's.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/operationeagleclaw33_zpscidrv4ri.jpg
U.S. Army 1st SFOD-D Operator wearing AN/PVS-5 Night Vision Goggles at Desert One, during Operation Eagle Claw in 1980.

It wasn’t until the Global War on Terror kicked off that the U.S. entered into a prolonged conflict where our combat systems could be truly tested and evaluated.  It’s ironic how Usama Bin Ladin’s heinous attack was the impetus for us to learn how to kill his kind really, really effectively.  The opening years of the war saw the wholesale destruction of Muslim Jihadist, the likes of which had never been seen in history. The Taliban and AQ fighters didn’t know what hit them – literally,because of night vision technology.  They had no idea they could be seen in the darkness of night, let alone targeted, engaged, and destroyed.  It was a beautiful time in Allied military history. We could literally lay waste to thousands of enemy fighters at a time,because of technology.  And night vision was the primary technology that made the bad guys too scared to sleep.  

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/delta2h_zps6srsqqwu.jpg
Assaulters from a U.S. Army Special Mission Unit, wearing ANVIS-9 Night Vision Goggles prior to operations in Iraq.

Since the advent of Starlight Scopes (Gen1) in the 1960’s, image intensifiers have produced green images.  This comes from the color of the phosphor screen.  The phosphor screen (sit tight for the explanation) can be any color.  But, green is the most visible color to the human eye.  So, green was the natural choice for the night vision image.  This worked quite well for decades.  But the law of technology and warfare is “innovate or die.” After several years of decidedly one-sided fighting in Afghanistan,Allied forces began meeting pointed resistance at night.  It’s one thing for enemy fighters to blindly fire into the night because they are getting engaged.  It’s something else entirely when they start providing effective fire back at you. This WTF moment was brought to us courtesy of battlefield pick-up NVG’s and Chechen fighters bringing cheap or black market goggles into the fold.  

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/brett-shady-shadle_zpstgl9vno8.jpg
U.S. Navy DEVGRU Operator, Brett 'Shady' Shadle, wearing GPNVG-18 Night Vision Goggles in Afghanistan.  Brett was tragically killed in a parachute training accident in AZ in 2013.

Now, let’s step back and talk about some night vision truths.  Night Vision isn’t magic.  It may seem that way, but night vision is an image intensification technology.  It requires some amount of ambient light to amplify.  If you take the latest/greatest image tubes,issued to Tier1 Assets, and try to look through them in an absolute pitch black environment, you will not see any image except for scintillation – electronic signal trying to make something out of nothing. Today’s tubes can do a whole lot more with a whole lot less, but they still need some ambient light to work with. Lucky for us, there are relatively fewer environments that contain zero light.  But, the more light you have, the better your image will be.  And when you are in darker environments, you often want to supplement your light capability with artificial infrared illumination. IR illuminators work like flashlights for your night vision goggles.  They allow you to use night vision in super low light / no-light conditions. But, they can be seen by anyone with night vision.  When you’re used to owning the night, it’s pretty shocking when your IR lasers and illuminators start working against you as they draw enemy fire.  That’s when SOF operators started asking for the ability to see into darker environments before
needing to supplement with artificial IR.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/2268a4fa44a711e3a7ab22000a1f97eb_8_zps77ha8ipj.jpg
U.S. Navy DEVGRU Operators prior to combat operations in Afghanistan.

This led to the development of white phosphor, and just as importantly – filmless image tubes.  While green may be the most visible color to the human eye, white is the brightest color in the visible light spectrum.  Simply changing the color of the phosphor screen from green to white provided an immediate jump in image brightness.  White images also proved more universally acceptable for human eyes during prolonged use.  But, the prospect of killing more jihadists drove the train right past that station into filmless technology.  This brings us to our next tangent: how image intensifier tubes work.  Traditional Gen3image tubes are thin-filmed.  Thin film is an ion barrier that protects the tube from destroying itself during function.  Photons (light energy) are converted into electrons (positive and negatively-charged) as they pass through the photocathode.  The negatively charged electrons pass through the micro channel plate (MCP), where they are multiplied… a lot.  The many, many more electrons that come out the other side of the MCP are splashed up on the phosphor screen, which converts them back into photons (a lot more of them).  This becomes the light-amplified image you see.  But, the positively charged electrons are repulsed by the negatively charged electrons back at the photocathode.  These travel in the opposite direction and would impact/destroy the photocathode if not for the thin film ion barrier.  While this is good, and the night vision image seen by the operator is phenomenal, it is handicapped by the thin film.  Basically,the thin film blocks a little under 50% of the light that could be gathered to begin with.  But, without it, the tube would be quickly destroyed.  

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/ARTICLES/White_Green/image2_zpsifrfrsle.jpg
TNVC employees, Sam and Don participate in night vision training in Florida (L-3 Filmless White Phosphor image)

The geniuses at L-3 Warrior Systems developed and patented filmless technology.  While we are not at liberty to fully discuss the details on how this is achieved, the gist is that the tube can gather way more light, which is then amplified even more, all while retaining a minimum 10,000 hours powered tube life.  Harris(formerly ITT Exelis) also makes WP tubes, but theirs are still thin-filmed.  So, while the image is still brighter than a thin-filmed green tube, they will not provide the same brightness levels or resolution as a filmless tube.  

White phosphor is an insanely potent technology that provides a clear advantage over green for the warfighter.  But, does it make green obsolete?  The answer is no.  While white does provide a distinct advantage, it is not perfect.  The white image can sometimes be too bright in higher light conditions.  While these conditions are not the primary operational environment for night vision, they do occur.  If you live or work in an urban or suburban area, you will have an abundance of man-made ambient light at night.  This amount of light will not always provide you enough illumination to operate safely, so night vision is the answer.  But, the over-sensitivity of white + filmless, can sometimes create a glowing halo effect.  This is when you want to turn down the gain on your goggle, or use light-limiting objective covers.  But overall, green may be a more viable option for these areas of operations. That said, the US SOF community is only purchasing white phosphor night vision right now.  They still have green in inventory, but it is being phased out as older goggles are retired.  

But again,just because the Navy SEALs are running white phosphor, doesn’t mean it’s what you need.  While it certainly has a high “chicks dig it” factor, WP is expensive.  You will generally spend $800+ more per WP tube. Yes, there are cheaper WP tubes, but you need to ask yourself why they are cheaper.  Without getting into the nitty gritty of tube differences, let’s suffice to say that not all tubes are created equal.  Some pass muster at the factory, and others don’t (they are sold at a discount to various dealers to recoup monies spent in production). There are still plenty of SOF units and infantry kids stacking the bodies of jihadists across the globe, through green screen.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with green and a lot more bad guys have met their virgins as a result of operators armed with green night vision than white. White is certainly great if you can afford it in your budget.  But that is the hinge point of your decision.  Does your budget allow for the white upgrade?

Personally,I tell people this: if you need to uncomfortably stretch your budget to afford white, stick with green.  Save the extra money for mounts, lasers, helmets, ammo, 401K, etc.  Night vision requires a lot of different accessories to work properly.  But, if you have the extra money laying around, then get white.  Having or not having one or the other willnot be the deciding factor in your mission success.  Both white and green are phenomenal technologies that have, and continue to serve our warfighters and LEO’s well.  We can’t tell you to get one or the other.  But hopefully, you now have abetter grasp on the technology to make a more informed decision (or at least were entertained while sitting on the toilet). Either way, keep your powder dry and be safe.
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Deserves a pin.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 9:16:44 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
The main reason for the development of WP tubes was to allow the user to operate in darker and darker conditions before needing to supplement...
... We tend to group WP and filmless together because it is the only type of WP tube we build with and it is currently the only tube we feel merits the name WP and the associated price.
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Thank you for the long and thoughtful reply. I understand what you are saying, but I also felt like the article was grouping WP = WP Filmless, and I don't really see that as an issue for most users, since they would likely get lost in the filmed/thin-filmed/un-filmed discussion. Having used both green filmless and WP filmless, there was little to no real world impact in my use by moving from one phosphor color to the other. If I had a 84lp/mm 40SNR tube with solid halo/EBI, I would happily trade in my green filmless tubes. With two tubes of the same spec, I don't know if the color matters a whole lot. In my usage, I would just opt for the cheaper of the 2 with the same specs, but WP seems to hold a better short term resale value, since they are a popular trend right now.

I have to imagine that if I am L3, I would really only be moving to WP if there is some perceived cost savings - either in materials or in success rates with specs with minimal impact or positive impact to the operator. I have to wonder what the motivation for L3 to move to WP was. I mean if you have the cushy contract with green why stir the pot, unless you can increase your bottom line. In any event, higher spec tubes are good for all, so I'm all for more higher spec tubes.

How does the average NV enthusiast attempt to buy a set of 84lp/mm 40+ SNR tubes?
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 7:03:46 AM EDT
[#13]
You are still missing one very important point. Green phosphor was chosen also because human eye can disgusting more shades of green than any other colour. Since modern warfare is generalny placed in Middle East there is no such need for high contrast solution and WP seems to be more comfort for operator. But you can trust me that in forests of Europe with 70% of cloudy nights green still makes job better. That's because you can easier distinguish shapes correctly due to higher contrast generated by green screen. By the way IMO this is design factor for Photonis Intens WP tubes, which generate better contrast image than :-3 filmless despite being little darker in NL5 environment.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 9:30:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Hey thanks for writing that up.  That was an interesting historical perspective on NV tech.  I was in at the beginning, and we viewed the -2's as basically a piece of shit.  We've come a long way since then.  

As I recall, the "filmless" tech was originally touted as being superior for recoil shock management for weapons mounted applications.  Now it is refined and mated with WP tech to make a better device.  For those that know, what was the quality of the earlier filmless green tubes, overall, as compared to light filmed stuff?  I seem to recall, TNVC was an innovator here, offering these filmless units as an option to the public.  But it seems most chose the light filmed option.  At least I did.  I am wondering now if these filmless green tubes were superior, but really didn't shine until you added the white phosphor?

Anyways, great write up.  Really explained the filmless WP to me.  As well as a few points about my green tube.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 10:42:30 AM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 11:34:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


If you think US and Allied Forces are only utilizing this tech in the middle east you are not quite up to speed. We (the US) have been conducting combat operations in the Philippines for almost 20 years combating extremist Muslim groups like Abu Sayef and other ISIS/Al Queda affiliated groups as well as East Africa hunting down the LRA and many other terrorist groups, so filmed green and Unfilmed WP are getting utilized in a wide variety of environments and feedback from the users still says unfilmed WP is the way to go, As for Photonis the US military uses Gen 3 tubes not Gen 2 and while the 4g tubes perform slightly better in high light conditions the unfilmed tubes are noticeably better in the field.


One thing everybody Needs to realize is the US SOCOM and JSOC tube specs are extremely high 2700+ FOM or better for SOCOM and the tier 1 units are utilizing tubes that push 3500-4000 FOM. So unless you look through a tube that good you might not be able to tell the difference between a green filmed and an unfilmed WP tube. We do occasionally get tubes that high spec but its rare and certainly not the norm and for good reason, I want our nations apex predators hunting down the people who have killed my friends and deserve no quarter with the best gear we can get them.
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Just out of curiosity Sam why is that you are constantly bringing up filmed green vs unflimed WP? As many people have brought up you can certainly get filmed WP and unfilled green tubes. I think a better comparison would be unfilmed vs unfilmed green vs WP. I imagine SOCOM or whoever would test stuff apples to apples.

And certainly years ago the medical work was done on eye sensitivity and that was the reason they did go with green, since thats the color humans can distinguish best and that the eye is most sensitive to. But I do find the idea of total tube brightness under really low light conditions to be more important to be an interesting counterpoint.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 11:43:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 2:39:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Well the point if NV is to see in the dark. So if WP makes it possible to see im the darkest conditions compared to the rest I think that speaks for itself.

Even though I find green to seemingly have more contrast, more potential to see "in the dark" is what we are all after with these things, no?

Granted you don't care about supplemental IR if you're a hunter as much as a cool guy but if you have the extra pesos you might consider going WP
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 2:44:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Wow. 3500 - 4000 FOM... I would like to just look through one of those.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 2:45:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Ok, my bad, I re-checked TNVC's product line and what I thought was filmless, was actually thick (or thicker) filmed tubes.  So the L3 tubes went from thick(er) film to filmless, GP to WP, and so the breakthrough being described here.  ITT used to be the big dog on the porch; now it looks like L3 is in charge.

Would this now be enough of a breakthrough to call "Gen IV"?   It would seem so to me.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 2:55:40 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
Ok, my bad, I re-checked TNVC's product line and what I thought was filmless, was actually THICK filmed tubes.  So the L3 tubes went from thick film to filmless, GP to WP, and so the breakthrough being described here.  ITT used to be the big dog on the porch; now it looks like L3 is in charge.

Would this now be enough of a breakthrough to call "Gen IV"?   It would seem so to me.
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Litton did that when they marked early Filmless tubes as Gen4. They tried that and it didn't stick.

There are also thin film tubes. ITT Pinnacle tubes aren't bad. I have L3 filmless tubes in a MOD3 and ITT Pinnacles in a Sentinel. I use them both interchangeably. There isn't enough difference between the performance of the two to lock down my usage of one or the other. If you have a good set of pinnacles you will hardly notice a difference in all but the darkest conditions, when you'd probably need supplemental IR anyhow. For an advanced operator, I agree - give them the absolute best so they can refrain from any supplemental IR. However, at those darkness levels, if you're worried about supplemental IR, I can't understand how you wouldn't be equally concerned with eye splash.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 3:32:09 PM EDT
[#22]
Yeah that picture of Sam up top shows this clearly, but, is he sporting a GP, or WP unit?  Is the glint from WP different from GP?

How much of a factor is "raccoon eye" on actual ops?

How does wearing safety glasses effect things?            

I would assume they have this all sorted out.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 3:37:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 5:36:05 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
So there is a new study conducted by army medical over the past few years and once its published and open source i'll surely post it, but the preliminary findings validate Unfilmed WP over Green filmed and unfilmed. Much less eye fatigue when your job requires you to wear a NOD system for 4-10 hours at a time, i.e. less eye strain and tension headaches.

As far as green unfilmed and filmed Both are manufactured and availablie but there is little demand for unfilmed green as the  unfilmed WP has all of the advantages of the unfilmed GP but with the added benefit of less eye fatigue and a perceived better crispness and clarity of image with the same price tag. I dont give user feedback to NV manufacturers guys kicking doors in do and the unfilmed WP is what they want.

ETA the OMNI 8 contract for the regular Army/USMC/Navy/USAF still calls for filmed GP tubes be they 11769's or 10160s, conventional Big Army is still utilizing and recieving filmed systems, that is why i compare Unfilmed WP to filmed Green.
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Thanks, that makes a bit more sense why you are writing this the way you are. You might consider in the future that we mere mortals may not be starting off from the same place as you are though. I'm quite interested in that army medical study once its released.

As for big army, well they are more conservative and want to stick to what they know already works. I figure a few years of "testing" done by SOCOM and others and they will be on board as well, I would guess they want to see how the lifespan of the units works out to more conventional tubes as they are spendy to replace.
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 7:16:03 PM EDT
[#25]
I always thought the green also had a natural night vision preservation benefit (similar to using color lenses on flashlights). Since your cones are not used at night and since rods are not sensitive to green light don't the rods remain more sensitive when using green-phosphor so you can transition between NVGs and natural night vision easier?

Also, thanks for the informative post TNVC!
Link Posted: 8/11/2017 8:36:18 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
I always thought the green also had a natural night vision preservation benefit (similar to using color lenses on flashlights). Since your cones are not used at night and since rods are not sensitive to green light don't the rods remain more sensitive when using green-phosphor so you can transition between NVGs and natural night vision easier?

Also, thanks for the informative post TNVC!
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This is an interesting question. Further, was the issue of transition from GP to thermal imager versus WP to thermal imager covered in the previous WP thread? If the results of that were covered then I have forgotten. I know that some people were working with output filtration that, although it hampered the I2 image, provided an easier transition.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 6:14:26 AM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
I always thought the green also had a natural night vision preservation benefit (similar to using color lenses on flashlights). Since your cones are not used at night and since rods are not sensitive to green light don't the rods remain more sensitive when using green-phosphor so you can transition between NVGs and natural night vision easier?

Also, thanks for the informative post TNVC!
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I don't find this to be true. After using green or white NV for more than 30-45 mins my natural night vision always suffers. With green it has a somewhat dark yellow tint to it. With white, everything is just darker but recovers faster.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 3:38:43 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


I don't find this to be true. After using green or white NV for more than 30-45 mins my natural night vision always suffers. With green it has a somewhat dark yellow tint to it. With white, everything is just darker but recovers faster.
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Using green with an amber filter, my natural vision goes purple
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 3:46:37 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:

Litton did that when they marked early Filmless tubes as Gen4. They tried that and it didn't stick.

There are also thin film tubes. ITT Pinnacle tubes aren't bad. I have L3 filmless tubes in a MOD3 and ITT Pinnacles in a Sentinel. I use them both interchangeably. There isn't enough difference between the performance of the two to lock down my usage of one or the other. If you have a good set of pinnacles you will hardly notice a difference in all but the darkest conditions, when you'd probably need supplemental IR anyhow. For an advanced operator, I agree - give them the absolute best so they can refrain from any supplemental IR. However, at those darkness levels, if you're worried about supplemental IR, I can't understand how you wouldn't be equally concerned with eye splash.
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Yeah I was going to say....may gen 3 thin filmed green tubes look pretty good. Just for me, it's hard to justify the jump in cost.

Don't get me wrong, at some point I will just do I can show off on Instagram l, but for what I do, the difference isn't noticeable.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 3:53:04 PM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:


Using green with an amber filter, my natural vision goes purple
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My vision goes purple after 30 or so minutes using a green tube without a filter.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 4:16:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 4:22:28 PM EDT
[#32]
I realize that it is anecdotal, but I upgraded to a white unit almost a year ago and, after using it for a while, can say that I'm a convert.  At first I was comparing to my other green pinnacle units and couldn't really commit to liking it better.  I was out with it again last night and was stunned by the clarity on super dark nights.  Not only is it better on my head for viewing and shooting w/ a laser, I get a much better picture with this behind a magnified day optic.  The critters I was observing last night seemed to really stick out more than I remember with the green.  This is a TNV-14 WP L3 filmless w/ a FOM of 2635 for reference.  That being said, I have never used a green filmless tube before, much less one with that kind of FOM.  Tonight I will be experimenting with it on a spotting scope w/ a Radius rangefinder...  good times
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 6:23:02 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
I realize that it is anecdotal, but I upgraded to a white unit almost a year ago and, after using it for a while, can say that I'm a convert.  At first I was comparing to my other green pinnacle units and couldn't really commit to liking it better.  I was out with it again last night and was stunned by the clarity on super dark nights.  Not only is it better on my head for viewing and shooting w/ a laser, I get a much better picture with this behind a magnified day optic.  The critters I was observing last night seemed to really stick out more than I remember with the green.  This is a TNV-14 WP L3 filmless w/ a FOM of 2635 for reference.  That being said, I have never used a green filmless tube before, much less one with that kind of FOM.  Tonight I will be experimenting with it on a spotting scope w/ a Radius rangefinder...  good times
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Not to hijack the thread but could you post pics of that setup (in a new thread?)
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 10:58:16 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:



Not to hijack the thread but could you post pics of that setup (in a new thread?)
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Sure thing, I'm heading out here in about 10 minutes.  I'm back at our place in the midwest so I once again have unlimited access to family property for shooting and experimentation (insert long deep relieved sight).  Based on how well last night went with a Vortex Viper at 10x w/ a smallish 32mm objective lens, I have high hopes.  I may put it in the night rangefinder thread, but if it goes really well and I have a lot to talk about then I will create a new thread.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 5:57:40 AM EDT
[#35]
I don't know anyone that spends hrs at a time under NODs, has the option for white or green, and chooses green.
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