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Posted: 7/26/2017 7:22:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Meant to add this needs to be a clip on.
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Posted: 7/26/2017 7:25:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Bubba, please do a search on this forum. This topic has been beat to death.
Thermal is King for Detection and I^2 Night Vision is the King of Identification. They both compliment each other.
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Posted: 7/26/2017 7:37:13 PM EDT
[#3]
What he said. Beat to death.
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Posted: 7/26/2017 7:44:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Thanks will do.
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Posted: 7/27/2017 1:04:04 PM EDT
[#5]
I use both, but if I had to choose only one device it would be a thermal weapon scope with a reliable QD mount that can double as a handheld spotter. Thermal is WAY more useful than image intensification for hunting. Any reason why you are looking solely at clip-ons?
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Posted: 7/27/2017 2:25:57 PM EDT
[#6]
While night vision is still best for identification ... this too will change.
Night vision isn't going to have significant technology advancements. Thermal will continue to have technology advancements and larger sensor arrays coming online. It the not too distant future, thermal will rule for identification. |
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Posted: 7/27/2017 2:30:10 PM EDT
[#7]
^I do believe he's correct. As the tech progresses thermal will be king on both fronts.
That being said high end NVG is amazing technology and in a choice between current (today) available technology I think you're money ahead going with NVG. It's very much and left and right hand situation though. Thermal for detection, NVG for identification. As always, get both. |
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Posted: 7/27/2017 3:18:04 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm looking at clip on mainly because I have a ACOG on the LWRC now and don't want to go back and forth.
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Posted: 7/27/2017 7:48:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm looking at clip on mainly because I have a ACOG on the LWRC now and don't want to go back and forth. |
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Posted: 7/27/2017 10:28:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm looking at clip on mainly because I have a ACOG on the LWRC now and don't want to go back and forth. Clip-ons: 1. Add weight and can throw off the balance of your rifle 2. Are more expensive compared to a dedicated scope 3. In most cases will cause a point of impact shift (although mostly small and repeatable) 4. Usually result in lower image quality and reduced field of view compared to a dedicated scope 5. Thermal clip-ons are usually only useable with low to medium magnification I understand your hesitation regarding switching back and forth between a day optic and a night optic, but with a quality QD mount like a Bobro, American Defense, Geissele, or my favorite, the ZRO Delta DLOC mount, it's really not that bad. I made a short video to demonstrate:  ACOG Trail ZRODelta QD As to the issue of positive ID for hunting, I think the advantages of night vision in comparison to thermal are grossly overstated. At distances most people will be shooting at night, I would say that current thermal technology is sufficient for positive ID around 98-99% of the time. In those rare instances when you're not 100% sure, you can move closer, observe longer, or simply not take the shot. Current thermal technology offers some incredible detail at close range and at longer ranges with sufficient magnification. Most of the problems associated with trying to ID an animal at night are because the animal is too far away. The advantage of hunting at night is that you can typically get a lot closer to the animal than you can during the day. Conversely, if you plan to shoot from longer ranges, it's important that you pick a unit with sufficient magnification to ID an animal at that distance. This principle applies to both thermal and night vision. If given a choice between passing on a shot opportunity on the rare occasion I am unable to positively ID an animal with thermal, versus failing to detect 70-80% of the animals with NV, I would choose thermal in a heartbeat. |
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Posted: 7/27/2017 10:50:43 PM EDT
[#11]
I was in your shoes and went with night vision,the new white phospher to be exact couldent be happier with my choice.im waiting on thermal to advance more and costs to come down before I invest too much.right now I think we are on the cusp of big changes coming to thermal sights.just my 02
Pete |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 12:19:32 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Although the idea of a clip-on seems very appealing in the abstract, we usually recommend going with a dedicated weapon scope for a few reasons: Clip-ons: 1. Add weight and can throw off the balance of your rifle 2. Are more expensive compared to a dedicated scope 3. In most cases will cause a point of impact shift (although mostly small and repeatable) 4. Usually result in lower image quality and reduced field of view compared to a dedicated scope 5. Thermal clip-ons are usually only useable with low to medium magnification I understand your hesitation regarding switching back and forth between a day optic and a night optic, but with a quality QD mount like a Bobro, American Defense, Geissele, or my favorite, the ZRO Delta DLOC mount, it's really not that bad. I made a short video to demonstrate:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH4tWk63uq8
As to the issue of positive ID for hunting, I think the advantages of night vision in comparison to thermal are grossly overstated. At distances most people will be shooting at night, I would say that current thermal technology is sufficient for positive ID around 98-99% of the time. In those rare instances when you're not 100% sure, you can move closer, observe longer, or simply not take the shot. Current thermal technology offers some incredible detail at close range and at longer ranges with sufficient magnification. Most of the problems associated with trying to ID an animal at night are because the animal is too far away. The advantage of hunting at night is that you can typically get a lot closer to the animal than you can during the day. Conversely, if you plan to shoot from longer ranges, it's important that you pick a unit with sufficient magnification to ID an animal at that distance. This principle applies to both thermal and night vision. If given a choice between passing on a shot opportunity on the rare occasion I am unable to positively ID an animal with thermal, versus failing to detect 70-80% of the animals with NV, I would choose thermal in a heartbeat. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm looking at clip on mainly because I have a ACOG on the LWRC now and don't want to go back and forth. Clip-ons: 1. Add weight and can throw off the balance of your rifle 2. Are more expensive compared to a dedicated scope 3. In most cases will cause a point of impact shift (although mostly small and repeatable) 4. Usually result in lower image quality and reduced field of view compared to a dedicated scope 5. Thermal clip-ons are usually only useable with low to medium magnification I understand your hesitation regarding switching back and forth between a day optic and a night optic, but with a quality QD mount like a Bobro, American Defense, Geissele, or my favorite, the ZRO Delta DLOC mount, it's really not that bad. I made a short video to demonstrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH4tWk63uq8
As to the issue of positive ID for hunting, I think the advantages of night vision in comparison to thermal are grossly overstated. At distances most people will be shooting at night, I would say that current thermal technology is sufficient for positive ID around 98-99% of the time. In those rare instances when you're not 100% sure, you can move closer, observe longer, or simply not take the shot. Current thermal technology offers some incredible detail at close range and at longer ranges with sufficient magnification. Most of the problems associated with trying to ID an animal at night are because the animal is too far away. The advantage of hunting at night is that you can typically get a lot closer to the animal than you can during the day. Conversely, if you plan to shoot from longer ranges, it's important that you pick a unit with sufficient magnification to ID an animal at that distance. This principle applies to both thermal and night vision. If given a choice between passing on a shot opportunity on the rare occasion I am unable to positively ID an animal with thermal, versus failing to detect 70-80% of the animals with NV, I would choose thermal in a heartbeat. If you buy night vision, you by definition can only use it at night. If you buy thermal, you can use it both day and night. If you think thermal doesn't make a big difference in daylight hunting, you need to rent a good thermal scope and see for yourself. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 12:05:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Icecold can I ask what you went with.
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Posted: 7/28/2017 12:16:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Icecold can I ask what you went with. This system works very well for me. Thermal tech is advancing so quickly that I am hesitant to drop tons of coin on the highest end units for fear they'll be obsoleted next year. With NV, that won't happen. And budget thermal is always easy to resell. Just my Texas two cents. |
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Posted: 7/30/2017 6:48:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Just wait for a dual chanel I2 and thermal clip on...
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Posted: 7/30/2017 8:47:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just wait for a dual chanel I2 and thermal clip on... 
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Posted: 7/30/2017 8:57:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Icecold can I ask what you went with. Pete |
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Posted: 7/30/2017 9:19:31 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Indeed THIS one works great. Many Hajis have been shot in the face with this... I've also shot some hogs in the face on occasion with the famed Guy from FLIR with this system as well. |
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Posted: 7/30/2017 9:44:26 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Indeed THIS one works great. Many Hajis have been shot in the face with this... I've also shot some hogs in the face on occasion with the famed Guy from FLIR with this system as well.
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Posted: 7/30/2017 10:10:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Available to civilians for a low low price of 999,999.87 
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Posted: 7/30/2017 10:41:07 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll modify my earlier comment with this additional observation many people are somehow not up to speed on: If you buy night vision, you by definition can only use it at night. If you buy thermal, you can use it both day and night. If you think thermal doesn't make a big difference in daylight hunting, you need to rent a good thermal scope and see for yourself. 
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Posted: 7/30/2017 11:26:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While night vision is still best for identification ... this too will change. Night vision isn't going to have significant technology advancements. Thermal will continue to have technology advancements and larger sensor arrays coming online. It the not too distant future, thermal will rule for identification.
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Posted: 7/31/2017 1:08:59 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except when it gets really hot out there and all the heat signatures start blending in. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 1:12:11 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless there is glass or a window between the target Or maybe night vision does a better job as a Peeping Tom rig than I give it credit for? I haven't seen any game hiding behind stray windows in the forest. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 2:18:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since 99% of the folks reading here won't be playing in a sandbox ... kind of moot |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 3:08:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since 99% of the folks reading here won't be playing in a sandbox ... kind of moot
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Posted: 7/31/2017 5:06:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't need to be in the sandbox or kicking in doors... Both conditions can degrade thermal performance and there are lots of thermal scopes out there from more than one manufacturer which can be tuned to offset the problems of daylight hunting with thermal. Looking through glass is something NO thermal scope can do and since woodland creatures don't use it for camo the only rationale I could see for the other fellow's comment was for those engaged in door kicking. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 5:07:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thermal works great in the Sandbox.....ask me how I know. Was thermal effective in daylight in the sandbox? |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 8:53:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Pretty sure I will never take a hog through glass, but I did notice the other day that it was pretty difficult to see out of my reap-ir after I had been shooting it suppressed quite a bit. Granted, by "a bit" I mean 4 mag dumps with a binary trigger, but still haha
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Posted: 7/31/2017 9:57:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, we've had some pretty hot weather around the States over the last two months and I'm still seeing new thermal videos every single day made out there in all the heat and humidity. Both conditions can degrade thermal performance and there are lots of thermal scopes out there from more than one manufacturer which can be tuned to offset the problems of daylight hunting with thermal. Looking through glass is something NO thermal scope can do and since woodland creatures don't use it for camo the only rationale I could see for the other fellow's comment was for those engaged in door kicking. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:17:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all ground is the same. Where I live we have so many outcroppings that sit and absorb heat all day and I can assure that it makes using thermal in the day hard at times, heck even at night there are issues at times. ', ' ' );" target="_blank">
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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:32:19 AM EDT
[#32]
As a very general rule, what's the lifespan of a decent thermal optic?
Do do they eventually crap out (for lack of a better understanding)? What's the life expectancy if kept in good condition? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:34:51 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a very general rule, what's the lifespan of a decent thermal optic? Do do they eventually crap out (for lack of a better understanding)? What's the life expectancy if kept in good condition? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 7:39:36 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a very general rule, what's the lifespan of a decent thermal optic? Do do they eventually crap out (for lack of a better understanding)? What's the life expectancy if kept in good condition? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 4:15:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Thermal and I^2 do different things. It is very hard to walk with thermal, as grass and sticks go to ambient quickly. I have heard navigation is equally messed up. That said, natural camaflage seems to still camaflage I^2, I can see and identify warm bodies with thermal that I can not even find with I^2-even knowing exactly were they are.
i take three units hunting. I scan with a thermal monocular and I^2, but other than battery life, thermal wins except for walking. I use a thermal scope (with optical magnification) to shoot. Hard to scan with magnification. I would not be leaving much on the table if I left the I^2 at home. someday they will come out with fusion that is light enough to wear as sunglasses. Got to dream. Till then, headlights rule. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 4:40:41 PM EDT
[#36]
I have both and have hunted with both. Thermal is king!!
There is is also a time everyday that it is not dark enough to use night vision but it is to dark to see with naked eyes. Thermal works 24/7 Spotted game many times with thermal day and night that I would have never seen otherwise. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:30:16 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thermal and I^2 do different things. It is very hard to walk with thermal, as grass and sticks go to ambient quickly. I have heard navigation is equally messed up. That said, natural camaflage seems to still camaflage I^2, I can see and identify warm bodies with thermal that I can not even find with I^2-even knowing exactly were they are. i take three units hunting. I scan with a thermal monocular and I^2, but other than battery life, thermal wins except for walking. I use a thermal scope (with optical magnification) to shoot. Hard to scan with magnification. I would not be leaving much on the table if I left the I^2 at home. someday they will come out with fusion that is light enough to wear as sunglasses. Got to dream. Till then, headlights rule. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 12:57:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Just looking for some opinions. Since thermal is so expensive would you be better off buying a upper level night vision instead of say a $4000 thermal. It's going on a AR15 used for hogs and coyotes. Thanks for any advice I'm new to this type of hunting. Pulsar has some inexpensive thermals |
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