I've been sniffing around this forum for a while trying to figure out where to start, because I've never owned (or used) any NVD.  After reading through a lot of the posts, I'm acutely aware of the fact I'm far behind the technical knowledge bell-curve.  So I'm humbly asking for some guidance in selecting the products I need (truth: just want).

This is how I intend to use (or the reasoning I'm using to justify the purchase of) NV:

1) I'd like to be able to "own the night" with regards to having a tactical advantage over a criminal (who breaks into my home or vandalizes my property).  
2) Should something catastrophic happen (like a major earthquake where power outages make security lighting problematic) I'd like to be able to survey my neighborhood / property / house without having to use my SureFire WMLs.
3) If alien squids invade from planet Poptart it would be nice to have NV to defend the homeland.
4) Its a lane in my hobby road I swore I'd never swerve into, but I think its time after 30+ years of shooting ARs.

I'm viewing this entire purchase skeptically (see #4 above).  Therefore, I really would like to stay below $2,000 (the further below the better).  I'm not someone who "cheaps out" on my gear (my training / cheap RDS are MRO..my go-to optics are Aimpoints and ACOGS, etc), but I'm not even sure I "need" NV...therefore I feel a $2000 test run is pretty generous. I'm not a wealthy Russian international banking tycoon that eats gold plated bon-bons and has an opulent mini-giraffe...


(I feel like an idiot NOOB so I thought I'd hide my shame behind a little humor)




The gear the NVD would be used in conjunction with include:

M4 type carbines or FNH Scar (16/17)
+RDS with NV settings (Aimpoint T1 and CompM4S)
+ACOG with Dual Illumination (don't know how this impacts NV use...that green HS/Dot is pretty bright)
+ SureFire M600AA or M600C Scout
ACH (ballistic) full cut helmet
+Helmet Mounted Sidewinder 2 (with IR)
Field gear (LBT PC, etc)
Side Arm (Glock 9mm, HK 45Acp) with or without NS

I don't know if I need a helmet mounted mono, or a rifle mounted device? Do I need a laser / illuminator?  Should I get an IR SureFire head for my existing M600 Scouts (I've read that the M952s get sick-flicker..so that's out).  It seems that Binos are less popular now (assuming because .mil is using PVS-14 monos?).

Please just help a brother out.  I'm out of my depth here, and need some guidance.

I primarily use NVGs for a different purpose than you are looking for and have used almost exclusively binocular NVGs (ANVIS-6).  My most recent job I got a chance to use the goggles for some things more along the lines you are looking at and had the option of PVS 7D, PVS-14, PSQ-20 and ANVIS 6.  Not sure if its because I'm so used to the ANVIS after so many years or the bino set up is so much better but I can't stand to use monoculars at all.   That being said I like the PVS 14 way better that the 7D

RE: Monos:

I've never used any NV, but it would seem (intellectually speaking) hard to adjust to one eye having NV and one eye not.  I understand I'd have better peripheral vision...but its dark so what is the advantage?  Googles seem like the most logical choice, but I'm curious why the military has moved toward the monocular?

I don't think I'd like a weapon mounted device, because I'd rather be able to "keep my head on a swivel" without having a rifle shouldered constantly.  I CCW a separate tac light for this very reason...I don't have to point (or even draw) my handgun to illuminate (for navigation and ID purposes).

This is a critical point I forgot to mention...

I have anisometropia.  This is a vision impairment where both eyes have different vision.  I'm right handed and have excellent (for my age) distance vision in my right eye.  My left eye is close to 20/2000 (I cannot read 2" letters at five feet).

I would think this would have a significant impact on monocular use.

I think you meant impact on binocular use... most nvgs have few diopters worth of adjustment built in, but i have no clue how much you neef. Basically you are focusing on a tv screen 1" from your eye.

True binos are nice since you have some depth perception. Pvs7s are good if you are on a budget and you can deal with lack of good depth percption.

Otherwise pvs14s are pretty standard. Some people dont like the1 unaided eye thing, but honestly you get used to it and its seldom as dark as people think. Plus you can put it in your pocket if need be.

2k or less you are buying gen2 gear or used/cobbled togther gen3. Either way good enough for what you want to do.

You will also need an ir laser if some sort as well. Apital, dbal, otal etc. Having one with a slaved visible laser is nice for zeroing. That will be another outlay of cash though.

Near term you can run pvs14 behind a nv compatible rds like an aimpoint, but eventually you will burn a nice dot right into the center of your tube.

#2, #3 and #4 are all reasonable and I can work through them during the week. Unless your house is a huge facility and you have intrusion detection layers then NVDs are not a reasonable solution for #1. You will not have time to deploy them. Good white lights solve for #1. I believe in layered, redundant approaches to problem solving and white light is definitely part of the overall structure.

Have you read: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/476217_New-to-NV--School-Me.html

or: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/473973_Do-s-and-Don-ts-of-NVG.html   ?

These will get you started.

Your specific ocular pathology aside, monoculars provide versatility that a biocular or binocular will never provide. I am one of the end users here that prefers the MNVD over the other options for most applications.

Read the other threads first and return here. We'll wring this a bit.

Thank you for the additional responses.

I'll read the two recommended threads, and will be back with comments afterword.

ETA: Thanks for dispelling #1. Time was an enormous oversight on my part!!!

While I'm off reading the recommended info, I wanted to explain how anisometropic amblyopia effects my vision because it will probably have an impact on recommendations.

A couple of years ago I had 20/2000 with an astigmatism (left eye) and 20/15 (right / uncorrected).  I'm now at 20/2000 with astigmatism (left) and 20/30 (right).  This causes me to have awful depth perception and an incredibly narrow peripheral on left side.  If my right eye is covered I can only see blurry shapes (with color) out of my left eye.  The image can make me dizzy if I try to move around much.

I definitely don't want to sound like a whiny female-dog, but I also don't want to spend $2000 on something that is completely unusable based upon this criterion.

You can rent NV if you want to try before you buy.

This is a big concern for me:

"The most popular current configuration is to mount the MNVD on the side opposite of the rifle. For RH/RED users this is the left eye. Most users experience some uneasiness about this - they want the MNVD over their dominant eye because mounting it over the non-dominant eye forces them into cross-eye-dominance since the aided eye now provides more information to the brain. For this reason I suspect CED users more easily adapt to cross-eye-usage. The nuts and bolts of why this configuration has become so popular is mostly related to physical conflict between the MNVD and the rifle - mounting the MNVD on the left allows you to mount the rifle on the right without them smashing (too badly) together. "

"-Ocular Pathology and use of the MNVD-
Use of corrective lenses can present difficulties with the use of the MNVD - so can non use. Use of an additional lens that is not native to the MNVD can cause focus issues. If you have an ocular pathology that can be corrected by the use of the diopter ring then I recommend that you do so. If you are an avid user of the MNVD and suffer eye strain in the unaided eye because light levels are high enough to cause it to attempt to focus, then I recommend you consider using a pair of glasses with the lens removed that would be behind the MNVD. If you go this route, then I recommend you go full-tilt and get a set of BCGs (birth control goggles). They will provide a better field of view and better eye protection than smaller lenses. Alternately you can block the unaided eye altogether with a pirate patch - this is not recommended but it does work to some extent. Do not use the MNVD for extended periods with the unaided eye closed - this is not a solution. "

I was required to wear a patch over my left (problem) eye as a child.  While I have no "legal vision" in my left eye it still "functions" (about as well as a high round count HiPoint that's been through a house fire) enough to allow me to not bump into everything or have a complete lack of weak-side awareness.

"Some ocular pathologies are not correctable by using the diopter ring so you may just have to work around it the best you can. Do not rely on the diopter ring being calibrated properly - many are not. Frequent rest and exercise of the eyes is in order for those with ocular pathologies to get the most benefit from the MNVD. (Really, it helps ALL of us.)

This is one arena where the BNVD shines - many can independently provide correction for each eye. All of this is based on opinions from other MNVD users with ocular pathologies. I am not an expert in this segment but I wanted to add what I think I know because it at least gets you to a starting point. "

This is what I'm thinking^^^^   There isn't any amount of dioptic correction that will allow my left eye to "see better" (my pathology is not correctable), but I'm use to having the problem.  It would seem that BNVD would "replicate" my unique situation and therefore eliminate the questionable variable.

Welcome to the NVG World. Most of us were once new users just as you are, and its certainly not easy to buy your first unit. First off, I'm thinking your price range is a little low. If you want to be serious with your device (vision quality and ability to see at any real distance) then Gen 3 helmet mounted is really the only way to go. Dual Tubes are much more money than a PVS-14, and with your condition I'm actually thinking you'd be better of with a single tube over your right eye. With an IR laser, this could totally be do-able. Good luck with your search!

I don't quite understand and maybe I missed it somewhere in the above replies. Is the vision in your "bad" eye correctable, or do you only have 1 working eye?

Do you wear any type of corrective lens for that bad eye?

That's discouraging.

Thanks - I was thinking BNVD would be better but I really have no idea based upon my vision.

In a nutshell:

My left eyesight is legally blind (I can see fuzzy shapes and colors).  There is no corrective action for this.  The problem isn't just the eye - its the way the brain interprets what the eye is seeing.

My right eye is 20/30 (which is good for a middle aged guy).

Thanks - I'm working through the SOT's information.

I'm quoting myself here to make a clarification:

While I can't read, drive or walk with my right eye closed I do depend on my left eye for left side acuity.  What I mean is...I can't tell if its a Sasquatch, Blonde Budweiser Model or East German Hitman coming up on my left side...but I can tell something is moving "over there".

My left eye vision is FAR WORSE than the 20/200 here:

Find 20/2000 here:

There is a Brownells banner at the top of this screen.  If I look at that through my left eye I only see a fuzzy yellow blob in a black field.

I'm sorry this has turned into a thread about my specific vision impairment, but honestly at this point I'm wondering if NV is even viable for me.

Ok, so you are blind in one eye. You can still use NV, binos will still work with one eye, though it may be a waste so a PVS-14 or something similar will work fine for your good eye. If you use a binocular type system, you will see good in your regular eye and a green blob in your other. If thats a problem then cover the bad eye with a patch, or tape over the lens.

With regards to your goals and budget...

You make use of alot of various buzzwords like ZOMG "own the night"

Strictly to do this, you want the best gear, but your budget is totally amateur hour. You can get a shiny new pvs-14 for around 3500 ish last I checked, and probably another 1500 for an "own the night" class laser system...

With regards to your 2k budget, I'll have to agree with Sam that you are being rather optimisitc, here are some rough guidelines.


"Go be poor somewhere else setup"
Newish BNVD type setup 8k+
High end laser APITAL-C or MAWL 1500-3k ish


"Own the night" setup
High end new manufacture PVS-14 3500+
High end laser setup APITAL-C ~1500


"middle of the road" setup
Well used gen3 PVS-14 or gen2 pvs-14 (1500-2.5k) probably blem tubed G3 PVS-14, or a cleaner tubed gen2. PVS-7's are in this range too, maybe even a bit less.
Lower tier civy laser DBAL I2 800+

"Broke dick setup"
Used Gen2 PVS-5 bino, or similar gen2 mono setup 500-1k You might find a used PVS-7 type in the upper end of this range as well.
OTAL-C IR $500 or really broke dick Lasermax-IR 200 bucks.

In terms of capability for what you "really" want to do, which is to mostly to fuck around at night unseen by other folks with no NV even the bottom tier will do it, but its not really "owning the night". The more you spend the better it is, and realistically its all about practice an actually using your gear. The middle of the road setup is probably the sweet spot between cost and performance.

Harlikwin,

Ok - clear signal to noise with you.  I appreciate that.

It looks like I need to increase my budget by 75-100% if I want functional gear.   Since I'm not an "operator" (or even Mall Ninja) it would seem the "middle of the road" would work.  Before I spend any money I think I need to refine my objectives and let the (realistic) intended use drive the gear selection.  Since a high level of performance is a couple of orders of magnitude above my original budget I need to reconsider what I can actually accomplish with "middle of the road" kit.

Thanks for all of the input.

Follow on question....

Is it even worthwhile to invest in "middle of the road" equipment?  I've been down the "buy right / cry once ... buy wrong / cry twice" road too many times.  This is starting to shape up to a scenario wherein I need to follow the advice I give everyone else...just wait and buy what I really need.  

ETA: Is "middle of the road" at $3500 serviceable or is it a better decision to hold off and buy better gear?

Honestly for 90% of what I do the broke dick gear works fine, and I use it more since I care alot less if it breaks since I'm only out a few hundred bucks.

For the order of magnitude price differences the performance differences are certainly not order of magnitude.

I've got everything from fairly high end ANVIS and PVS-14 setups down to PVS-5's and 2's so within that frame of reference. Depending on what you want to do a middle of the road setup will probably work fine for most things unless you are planning on having shootouts with the US military or space invaders, in which case you will die regardless. For messing with the pesky kids drinking in your backyard at midnight, the PVS-5 will be plenty good enough.

Depending on your budget, you can spend a bit more on NV now, and if you get a pvs-14 you can mount it behind an aimpoint to use on a rifle if you really need to. And then save up for a decent laser system later on. I'm gonna go and say 90%+ of your NV use will probably not be while carrying a rifle, especially if you don't hunt.

In terms of performance I look at like this

Speaking very very broadly:
Old Gen2 is the bare minimum (i.e. PVS-5's and the like) but still usable
Newer gen2 systems and older Gen3 systems are fairly equivalent in terms of performance.
Newer gen3 is the best.

Two metrics you should consider for new guys

Resolution, runs from like low 30 lp/mm, to high 70's or low 80's on modern gear. Think of this as the difference between an old CRT TV and a modern Hi-def TV. Realistically though, it hits the point of diminishing returns pretty quick, I can easily tell the difference between a 36lp system a 51lp systems. But its pretty hard to tell the difference between a 51lp and 64 or 64 and 72 etc.

SNR:
Signal to noise ratio, this gives you some idea of what low light performance is going to look like. And by low light I mean really low light, like starlight only. Or overcast starlight, or under a tree canopy. If you are in reasonably open terrain, and the moon is above 1/8 or above (so 25+ days out of a given month) most of these systems will perform pretty comparably since there is plenty of light around.

PVS-5 era, gen 2 are gonna be in the low teen range ~12 (the original spec on the PVS-5 called for it to identify a man sized target at 150m under starlight only conditions)
Older Gen3 and newer gen2's are generally in the mid to high teens ~16-19
Newer ish gen3 and high end gen2 are in the mid 20's
Really nice new gen3 stuff is in the 30's

ETA.
Consider a middle of the road PVS-14 with say an omni4 or omni5 tube is what the majority US forces were using at the begining of the iraq war. So depending on your definition of serviceable is...

The OTAL-C IR is on sale at JRH for $350 the last I saw. You might grab one right now if it is still on sale. Other lasers have more features but few in it's class outperform it.

Follow this with a decent PVS-14 from the EE and you are started.

I can show you how to sensibly cut corners on the helmet and mount until you can upgrade.

$2,000 is a little ambitious but I could see you getting squared for $2,500 to $3,000. Supplemental IR and markers can wait.

Oh yeah, i totally forgot about what all the ancillary stuff runs, havent bought any of that in a while...

I would not go bino given your detailed explanation.

The otal-c laser is on dvor right now for 300 that is a perfectly fine budget ir laser. You could also grab that d300 on the equip exchange for 775. It is gen 2+, but should be fine for your needs. I wouldnt jump right in to a new pvs14 until you know it will work for you. You shouldnt lose anything on that d300 if your eyes cant do it.

Between that and the laser from dvor, you will be in good shape to test the waters to see how your eyes do.

Yup. I agree with chosos. You can try that out. Or as i said there are places you can rent NV from.

OK assuming you've read the threads recommended by SOT, there is one thing I'd like to add.  With your mission, vision situation, and budget in mind, I think a good set of MNVD's in the gen III green range (PVS14-17) would set you up nicely, for around 3300 new.  Add to that an OTAL IR laser at 305-350-ish.  And a IR illum (lots of choices, lets say SF Vampire head scout).  As an option, SF dual switch.  This basic set up will get you in the game.  Add in your helmet, shroud, mount, and J-Arm (see other threads) and you're GTG.

Now how to make it all work.  If you recall, Augee was doing some interesting shit with helmet mounted MNVD's, and weapon's mounted RDS's.  With your eye sit, this just might be the ticket for you.  What you would basically be doing is using the right eye for NV scanning/patrolling, and then using it to pick up the IR laser/illum, or, pick up the RDS reticle.  Since you need to mount the MNVD on the right side, this might be a very viable technique for you.  I have been experimenting with it myself.  You add a 1/2" or 5/8" riser under the RDS, which allows you to interface (quite literally) with the weapons sight, with the MNVD on your face.  

So that's the deal here.  I think you can make this thing work, if you're willing to bump your budget up a bit, and re-configure your rifle sight to work for both day use, and NV gear.  BTW I really like the added height, just for all-around use.  It allows you to stay more focused on target, and bring the reticle up to it, rather than having to adjust your head/eye to look through the reticle.

The only caveat. You're really gonna have to practice with these things, (really pivot head around on scan) if your left side ain't helping much.  Frequent breaks to flip up and check out the scene with your right eye.  Definitely a good off-set w/ no eye cup (see other threads) from optic to right eye so you still have good peripheral vision.

Would not recommend weapons mounting since new technique with risers allows you to do this as an option with head mount.