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Posted: 6/6/2017 11:51:11 AM EDT
[#1]
Nothing new in the report...
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Posted: 6/6/2017 12:14:30 PM EDT
[#2]
First I have seen in any public documents, perhaps you can share additional insight?
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Posted: 6/6/2017 12:22:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First I have seen in any public documents, perhaps you can share additional insight? |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 12:50:55 PM EDT
[#4]
I've been following along with the development of DNVG, and the evolution away from purely i2 platforms for some years, I'm aware of the advances made by intevac, the x27 camera, etc.
It appears that this is something different, and in fact new. searching "socom augmented reality" brings this discussion back as the primary result. I see no other hit returns for virtual reality lasers, or augmented reality personal day/night vision systems. Respectfully, if you want to add some insight, I would be very pleased to read any information you can link to or care to share... |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 7:52:41 PM EDT
[#5]
I find the out of band ir laser an intersting development.... does this mean they are going to buy "intens" or is there a domestic option....
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Posted: 6/6/2017 7:59:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Augmented reality with day/night vision systems
 reminds me of the video of those futuristic googles Silencerco (or whatever subsidiary they own) showed in that advanced products video.
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Posted: 6/6/2017 8:59:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find the out of band ir laser an intersting development.... does this mean they are going to buy "intens" or is there a domestic option.... Didn't Photonis have some US based manufacturing at one time - or was that just a sales office? Beretta and FN have US manufacturing. I don't see this as being an entirely different issue... and I know some techs and engineers in the Phoenix, AZ area who could use the work if anyone is listening. Anyway, that is my conjecture for the day - and that is all that it is. |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 9:02:45 PM EDT
[#8]
I dont think photonis does. But really im sure US maufacturers could make it under license, or just rip it off if needed...
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Posted: 6/6/2017 10:24:52 PM EDT
[#9]
DEP Technologies is the US manufacturing company for Photonis. DEP manufactures the Hyper-14, Vyper-14, and Hyper Mum housings as well as a super lightweight ETHER PVS-14/Mum/PVS-15 eye piece. They also distribute Photonis INTENS 4G tubes. If you have not already seen their stuff check it out. They have some very nice gear.
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Posted: 6/6/2017 10:42:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Intens look to be good tubes. Is there any literature on the PC composition?
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Posted: 6/6/2017 10:54:47 PM EDT
[#11]
If you search around online you can find the patent somewhere and this older thread is a good read https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/451412_-ARCHIVED-THREAD----PHOTONIS-4G-tube-appears-to-have-taken-4th-Generation-crown-.html&page=1
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Posted: 6/6/2017 11:18:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find the out of band ir laser an intersting development.... does this mean they are going to buy "intens" or is there a domestic option.... 
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Posted: 6/6/2017 11:34:35 PM EDT
[#13]
It's an interesting idea, I'm not sure we're at the point of reliability to actually rely on it for pointing a live weapon.
Very feasible, but you're talking about tracking the relative position and orientation of the rifle relative to the display. "Well, it was only 15 degrees off, sorry Bob. Get well soon." Assuming the rifle itself wouldn't necessarily be in the field of view, I'd think someone would need to come up with some other way to register that than accelerometers and gyros mounted on the weapon. It would be an interesting project to work on though. If someone is willing to fund it I'll give it a shot. :-) |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 11:53:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DEP Technologies is the US manufacturing company for Photonis. DEP manufactures the Hyper-14, Vyper-14, and Hyper Mum housings as well as a super lightweight ETHER PVS-14/Mum/PVS-15 eye piece. They also distribute Photonis INTENS 4G tubes. If you have not already seen their stuff check it out. They have some very nice gear. 
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Posted: 6/7/2017 12:29:53 AM EDT
[#15]
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As a quick side track, whats the story with the Ether eyepieces? Do they improve FOV in a way? I've been looking at those, but there isn't a whole lot of info about them or first hand reviews. At around $750 a piece, I don't think we're going to see too many either 
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Posted: 6/7/2017 12:59:11 AM EDT
[#16]
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L3 is and has been fielding out of band systems for several years now. (We're just fine...) Folks do not see this mainstream and may not for quite some time. Lasers, beacons and such are also out there. Current commercial glass cannot see out of band, but work is being done on that as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I find the out of band ir laser an intersting development.... does this mean they are going to buy "intens" or is there a domestic option.... |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 1:41:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What does "out of band" mean? |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 3:47:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey Fed, usually when you see these referenced, we talk above the frequency of 940nm. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What does "out of band" mean? |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 4:42:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's an interesting idea, I'm not sure we're at the point of reliability to actually rely on it for pointing a live weapon. Very feasible, but you're talking about tracking the relative position and orientation of the rifle relative to the display. "Well, it was only 15 degrees off, sorry Bob. Get well soon." Assuming the rifle itself wouldn't necessarily be in the field of view, I'd think someone would need to come up with some other way to register that than accelerometers and gyros mounted on the weapon. It would be an interesting project to work on though. If someone is willing to fund it I'll give it a shot. :-) As this tech matures it could also mean they could get rid of any perceived lag in the thermal view, or a thermal overlay. You could do prediction or read the sensors a lot faster than the screen updates and modify the screen output accordingly. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 7:48:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
L3 is and has been fielding out of band systems for several years now. (We're just fine...) Folks do not see this mainstream and may not for quite some time. Lasers, beacons and such are also out there. Current commercial glass cannot see out of band, but work is being done on that as well. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 7:49:45 AM EDT
[#21]
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If you like nice gear, you will like the ETHER. It has a more forgiving eye-box, it's super light, and overall it's better glass. I have not noticed and increase in FOV and I am not sure if resolution is actually increased, but I have noticed a better overall image viewing the tubes I have paired the ETHER with. It uses the same glass as the PVS-31 and many other high-end devices. If I had to compare it to the legacy eye piece I would say the difference is similar to the difference in a sub $1,000 day optic and a $2,500 plus day optic. Both are nice, but one is noticeably better. It's much better when you use it frequently for long periods at a time. One feature I have really grown to like about the ETHER is the diopter lock. It seems like the first thing people want to do when the pick up one of my PVS-14s is start twisting the eye piece and jacking up my diopter setting. Once you get the ETHER adjusted there is a lock ring you can back down to keep the diopter from adjusting. It's not a huge deal but it's handy when people are always messing with your gear. Just FYI we have plenty of the ETHER-14s and sell em for $650ish. https://www.unvcorp.com/vspfiles/photos/R-14-SHOESET-6.jpg |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 8:28:05 AM EDT
[#22]
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How much weight difference is there between the ETHER 14's and a regular set? |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 1:10:55 PM EDT
[#23]
I googled up "augmented reality goggles", and "virtual lasers" and what I found doesn't have anything to do with half of what's being discussed in this thread. I am missing something or is this just thread drift?
The "ARG's" seem to be nothing more than a head ups display on goggles for ground-pounders. While that's really cool, it's really not "augmenting" the view of the environment around you, merely displaying data. Again, pretty cool, but not really augmenting the vision of my surroundings (as in NV gear). Now if you are talking about a pipper gunsight, like a jet fighter, that might be cool, but how to make it work with your weapon would be the key. The HUD and the guns on an aircraft are fixed in relation to each other. They both must be turned and "pointed" at the target to work. You would need some kind of wireless connection to feed the reticle from the gunsight to the heads up display on the glasses. Don't know how that would compare to just looking through the reticle. Maybe extreme CQB would be an app, where you can't get sights on target. But as far as info-management, that would be the bomb. Time, distance, azimuth, location, radio freq's. etc. The virtual laser had more to do with a virtual keyboard than any kind of aiming device. I could see this use in new comms, to replace keyboards and lighten up gear, but don't see the app in LAMs? |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 2:24:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I googled up "augmented reality goggles", and "virtual lasers" and what I found doesn't have anything to do with half of what's being discussed in this thread. I am missing something or is this just thread drift? The "ARG's" seem to be nothing more than a head ups display on goggles for ground-pounders. While that's really cool, it's really not "augmenting" the view of the environment around you, merely displaying data. Again, pretty cool, but not really augmenting the vision of my surroundings (as in NV gear). Now if you are talking about a pipper gunsight, like a jet fighter, that might be cool, but how to make it work with your weapon would be the key. The HUD and the guns on an aircraft are fixed in relation to each other. They both must be turned and "pointed" at the target to work. You would need some kind of wireless connection to feed the reticle from the gunsight to the heads up display on the glasses. Don't know how that would compare to just looking through the reticle. Maybe extreme CQB would be an app, where you can't get sights on target. But as far as info-management, that would be the bomb. Time, distance, azimuth, location, radio freq's. etc. The virtual laser had more to do with a virtual keyboard than any kind of aiming device. I could see this use in new comms, to replace keyboards and lighten up gear, but don't see the app in LAMs?
I'll have to dig into the archives, but a few years ago the ARMY via BAE I thought was showing flat screen Vis glasses based on the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) visor (Striker). These are amazing and I actually have had the opportunity to be in the JSF Sim and wore this integrated visor. STUNNING. ShotGlass which I think is out now that was developed with research of virtual type goggles over the years which I have never tried. DARPA I think was funding with nano type crystals into regular glasses for NV work. I feel the biggest leap that will happen in the near future is weapon sights that are linked wirelessly to the head-worn displays, think ENVG (Enhanced Night Vision Goggles) which will allow shooting and seeing behind cover, etc. I know some serious funding and work is being done in this regard. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 2:25:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I googled up "augmented reality goggles", and "virtual lasers" and what I found doesn't have anything to do with half of what's being discussed in this thread. I am missing something or is this just thread drift? The "ARG's" seem to be nothing more than a head ups display on goggles for ground-pounders. While that's really cool, it's really not "augmenting" the view of the environment around you, merely displaying data. Again, pretty cool, but not really augmenting the vision of my surroundings (as in NV gear). Now if you are talking about a pipper gunsight, like a jet fighter, that might be cool, but how to make it work with your weapon would be the key. The HUD and the guns on an aircraft are fixed in relation to each other. They both must be turned and "pointed" at the target to work. You would need some kind of wireless connection to feed the reticle from the gunsight to the heads up display on the glasses. Don't know how that would compare to just looking through the reticle. Maybe extreme CQB would be an app, where you can't get sights on target. But as far as info-management, that would be the bomb. Time, distance, azimuth, location, radio freq's. etc. The virtual laser had more to do with a virtual keyboard than any kind of aiming device. I could see this use in new comms, to replace keyboards and lighten up gear, but don't see the app in LAMs? You could show a virtual laser in the NODs especially if your scope is pointed outside of the FOV. Perhaps others would be able to see that too if they were networked. If you knew the terrain good enough and could do occlusion on the laser it would be even nicer. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 2:28:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There was a demo video a while back showing thermal view overlaid on NODs. If their FOV overlapped you got a zoomed in view at that point and in thermal obviously. Didn't look to work that well, but the position/direction sensor are getting better every day. 
Drones and other data are easily done with the 21's. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 2:33:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PVS-21's already do this very well with their add on HUD. Using a PAS-13, it was pretty cool shooting around cover with the PAS-13 image and cross hair overlaid onto one of the lenses of the 21...And this 11-12 year old technology.
Drones and other data are easily done with the 21's. Edit: unfortunately it seems to be impossible to find the video. Anyway it looked like regular 40deg night vision with perhaps 10-15 deg circular portion of the view filled with the thermal overlay, which was located where the scope was pointed at. If it was outside the view of the NOD then there was no overlay. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 4:42:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Yeah OK that would make sense, with a heads up "pipper" sight in your goggles, linked to your weapon, you could do some shooting, especially in non-std positions. The "Bagdad off-hand" would become a legit shooting pos.
It's been amazing to see these leaps in technology since the beginning of the GWOT. Funny thing is it all still supports a "black powder" weapon. Right? |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 6:26:05 PM EDT
[#29]
That magic black powder is quite cheap and still effective
About augmentation, I think the opportunities are limitless. I am sure drones are getting, or have already, human / vehicle detection and that could be relayed to someone with augmented goggles, showing their location in real time even if you didn't have line of sight. And eventually not just drones, but everyone could relay that information to everyone else. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 6:28:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very true, though in that video the scope view moved in your FOV along where you pointed it at. Not a static image from the scope in other words. Edit: unfortunately it seems to be impossible to find the video. Anyway it looked like regular 40deg night vision with perhaps 10-15 deg circular portion of the view filled with the thermal overlay, which was located where the scope was pointed at. If it was outside the view of the NOD then there was no overlay. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
PVS-21's already do this very well with their add on HUD. Using a PAS-13, it was pretty cool shooting around cover with the PAS-13 image and cross hair overlaid onto one of the lenses of the 21...And this 11-12 year old technology.
Drones and other data are easily done with the 21's. Edit: unfortunately it seems to be impossible to find the video. Anyway it looked like regular 40deg night vision with perhaps 10-15 deg circular portion of the view filled with the thermal overlay, which was located where the scope was pointed at. If it was outside the view of the NOD then there was no overlay. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 8:55:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much weight difference is there between the ETHER 14's and a regular set? |
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Posted: 6/8/2017 10:58:10 AM EDT
[#32]
USSOCOM was developing virtual laser aiming devices two years ago, had proof of concept and went out to try and find further development. That's when they first published their FY21 estimates.
I mentioned some of it back here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/441111_.html&page=1 A little over two years ago. US OOB development is primarily focused on TCAD's, SWIR and Virtual. There are gaps in the approach taken by CERDEC and I pointed that out to some of them when I was presenting on the topic last year. I'm guessing they are moving to cover the gaps, but it's not straightforward, and I noticed Vic mentioned something important - US lenses (and to be fair, most lenses, not just the US's main lenses) aren't up to the task yet. There's a lot of development yet to occur with respect to out of band technologies, and some of it is relatively recent. Regards David. |
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