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Posted: 5/22/2017 1:15:25 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 5/22/2017 1:26:08 PM EDT
[#2]
I have worked with both for some time now. Filmless wins out in extreme low light and has for quite some time and no videos show true low light performance. Mil units whom have tested them and experience the same. Also the current L3 Filmless tubes are currently out with extraordinary high FOM's as well which are very hard to compete with. What they (the Mil and special others) do like is out of band, high light above 940nm the tube is capable of but glass seeing out of band in most systems is a limiting factor. L3 and others are working on out of band parameters with other US tubes but I will not go into details. There is GREAT potential here for future systems with out of band parameters and I'm excited about this.
Edit, CJ7Hawk did a tech spec comparison with Standard Gen 3 awhile back you can see here that was well done. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/473938_4G-vs-Gen3---Specs-and-tactical-differences-.html Also here. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/460745_4G-vs-Gen3---S-N-around-28-1-both-tubes---.html |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 2:34:14 PM EDT
[#3]
the 4G tubes are still Gen2 tubes at the end of the night, while they do work is a wider light spectrum than other Gen 2 and Gen 3 systems that is about their only advantage. The L3 unfilmed WP is the best intensifier tube money can buy.
Extremely high SNR's and Photocathode Sensativity, low EBI's and high center Line Pair resolution. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 3:00:55 PM EDT
[#4]
I was under the impression that the photonis gen 2 tubes were the older xr5 production not the newer intens tubes. Is that not the case?
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have worked with both for some time now. Filmless wins out in extreme low light and has for quite some time and no videos show true low light performance. Mil units whom have tested them and experience the same. Also the current L3 Filmless tubes are currently out with extraordinary high FOM's as well which are very hard to compete with. What they (the Mil and special others) do like is out of band, high light above 940nm the tube is capable of but glass seeing out of band in most systems is a limiting factor. L3 and others are working on out of band parameters with other US tubes but I will not go into details. There is GREAT potential here for future systems with out of band parameters and I'm excited about this. Edit, CJ7Hawk did a tech spec comparison with Standard Gen 3 awhile back you can see here that was well done. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/473938_4G-vs-Gen3---Specs-and-tactical-differences-.html Also here. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/460745_4G-vs-Gen3---S-N-around-28-1-both-tubes---.html |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 3:09:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was under the impression that the photonis gen 2 tubes were the older xr5 production not the newer intens tubes. Is that not the case? Photonis wants to categorize their best tubes as something different from their lower tier tubes. This is understandable from a marketing perspective but a Gen 2 tube will always be a Gen 2 tube even it it outperforms a Gen 3 tube. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 3:32:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Got it. So put in a different way if I may. If I wanna get a tube today and potentially upgrade to thermal down the road what would be thre one that'll keep the value the best?
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am under the impression that everything that Photonis makes is Gen 2. That is not to say that they are bad tubes. Gen 2 is a design format - not a quality tier. Anything built under the same basic structure will always be Gen 2, regardless of gain, resolution, etc. Photonis wants to categorize their best tubes as something different from their lower tier tubes. This is understandable from a marketing perspective but a Gen 2 tube will always be a Gen 2 tube even it it outperforms a Gen 3 tube. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 3:43:22 PM EDT
[#7]
probably filmless
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Posted: 5/22/2017 4:08:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Has anyone used both and compare?
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Posted: 5/22/2017 4:22:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Just from watching videos and reading I see the only advantage for a common user being how INTENS handles (extremely) high light very nicely.
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Posted: 5/22/2017 4:50:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone used both and compare? 
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Posted: 5/22/2017 4:56:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got it. So put in a different way if I may. If I wanna get a tube today and potentially upgrade to thermal down the road what would be thre one that'll keep the value the best? |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 6:17:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Lol totally noob of me Vic!
Switching topic a little - is there a variable scope that'll work the best with a white phosphor tube? I know it's not ideal but my budget limits me :) Quote HistoryQuoted:
I already commented to that above, you even cut and pasted what I stated. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 7:37:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Yes, but using them mounted has risks. Best to use IR laser. I believe the Accupower has nv levels. Burris XTR II does also.
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Posted: 5/22/2017 7:47:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Anyway to install a 3x or 5x a focal magnifier into the tube? Is there a way to maybe swivel it in and out of place as needed?
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but using them mounted has risks. Best to use IR laser. I believe the Accupower has nv levels. Burris XTR II does also. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 8:50:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is just an opinion (but you will find it's a common opinion amongst night hunters): You don't "upgrade" from NV to thermal. You keep the NV for navigation purposes, and then either (1) put a thermal scope on your weapon, or (2) LAM the weapon and buy a thermal monocular for 500+ yard target detection. Or, in ARFCOM fashion, you do both (1) and (2). |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 10:54:32 PM EDT
[#16]
If you haven't seen this comparison it accurately displays what you can expect. I own both Gen3 and 4G, I run both, and it's a toss up for me when driving. The 4G is superior in a clip-on because it has a 57lp/mm high light resolution. When you turn on an IR light/laser the 4G looks better. L-3 with high specs is superior for navigating under no or limited moonlight, but we have not seen 4G tubes with as high of specs as what we typically see from the L-3 tubes we receive. There are also some technical differences in the autogating in Gen3 vs 4G, but for most users that's not noticeable.
 Photonis Intens 4G vs. L3 Gen 3 Filmless - Low Light Comparison |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 10:31:47 AM EDT
[#17]
We are obligated to always give the industry and our LE and military brothers and sisters on a 2 way range the absolute truth. Our employees are either ex-Special Operations or LE we train for a living to Mil, LE and vetted U.S. citizens and we will refute public statements such as this below from a Photonis dealer which gives false claims of performance numbers. This ain't about shooting hogs who don't shoot back and the 4G are marketed from Photonis USA specfically for the Mil and LE world so the blanket claim below is concerning to say the least.
As for what are the differences, the new 4G Intens brand tubes perform 40% better than competitor tubes When lives are on the line and folks who matter get mislead...Houston we have a problem and 40% increase in performance is outlandish at best and not even close to real world, not even. (And no it was NOT a specific parameter of performance). Curious what tubes are these"competitor" tubes? Gen2 or way early Gen 3? (But still not sure even the older Gen3 will lag FORTY PERCENT?) Surlely it cannot be modern thin filmed or filmless L3 Omni 8 mil spec tubes we routinlely get in with specs never seen before in the industry. We here at TNVC test every piece of gear we get our hands on before we offer it, and for good reason for the last 11 years we have not changed our philosophy. Performance statements like this are troublesome for folks who's gear needs to save lives. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 10:37:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Glockman named the older XR5 tubes. I had one and while they are decent tubes and very crisp/clear, my old omni 4 gen 3 tubes beat it hands down. You will need IR light for dark woods and no moon conditions with the XR5 tube. For the money the XR5 cost just go with gen 3, you will be happier in the long run.
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Posted: 5/23/2017 10:51:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol totally noob of me Vic! Switching topic a little - is there a variable scope that'll work the best with a white phosphor tube? I know it's not ideal but my budget limits me :) |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 11:29:33 AM EDT
[#20]
Here is the high light comparison. Correction on the high light res it's 55 not 57.
 Photonis Intens 4G vs. L3 Gen 3 Filmless - High Light Comparison |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 4:15:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Hey Caver - good catch. I'm comparing photonis 4G (the newer tube) though and not the XR5. There's a deal on it that I'm just having a hard time to beat. I know that l3 makes great tubes too but tit seems that the consensus is that for higher light environments the 4G is easier on the eyes. I will be primarily hunting with a dbal d2 so I figure that will work as a set up. TNVC's service is hands down top notch though - I don't doubt that one bit.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Glockman named the older XR5 tubes. I had one and while they are decent tubes and very crisp/clear, my old omni 4 gen 3 tubes beat it hands down. You will need IR light for dark woods and no moon conditions with the XR5 tube. For the money the XR5 cost just go with gen 3, you will be happier in the long run. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 7:11:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am under the impression that everything that Photonis makes is Gen 2. That is not to say that they are bad tubes. Gen 2 is a design format - not a quality tier. Anything built under the same basic structure will always be Gen 2, regardless of gain, resolution, etc. Photonis wants to categorize their best tubes as something different from their lower tier tubes. This is understandable from a marketing perspective but a Gen 2 tube will always be a Gen 2 tube even it it outperforms a Gen 3 tube. I'm not sure I'd call the "intens" photocathode a gen2 given its much much wider spectral response... And the only real difference in "design format" between G2 and 3 is the PC, and ion barrier film (which of course g3 filmless tubes don't have). |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 7:13:54 PM EDT
[#23]
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Here is the high light comparison. Correction on the high light res it's 55 not 57.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ2zZhiWddsCurious, what is your setup for these side by sides? |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 8:26:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I don't quite understand your point. I'm not sure I'd call the "intens" photocathode a gen2 given its much much wider spectral response... And the only real difference in "design format" between G2 and 3 is the PC, and ion barrier film (which of course g3 filmless tubes don't have). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am under the impression that everything that Photonis makes is Gen 2. That is not to say that they are bad tubes. Gen 2 is a design format - not a quality tier. Anything built under the same basic structure will always be Gen 2, regardless of gain, resolution, etc. Photonis wants to categorize their best tubes as something different from their lower tier tubes. This is understandable from a marketing perspective but a Gen 2 tube will always be a Gen 2 tube even it it outperforms a Gen 3 tube. I'm not sure I'd call the "intens" photocathode a gen2 given its much much wider spectral response... And the only real difference in "design format" between G2 and 3 is the PC, and ion barrier film (which of course g3 filmless tubes don't have). I do not have a dog in this fight and, quite frankly, I am ready for a tube evaluation system that is not US centric that allows for more reasoned comparisons of tubes manufactured worldwide. Until recently, the US was THE main player on the field so it was workable for us to lean on the US Gov designations because there was little deviation in products of foreign origin. The improvements of foreign products requires some enhanced terminology to properly describe it. I never implied that the better Gen 2 (or Gen 4 or whatever it is called) stuff was not highly capable. I hope this clarifies my thoughts. If I am all wet then I am glad to listen to a reasoned approach as to how I am wrong. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 10:25:15 PM EDT
[#25]
Based on those videos, the low light performance difference is definitely there, but not as huge as I would have guessed. That being said, anyone who has done photography or video through I^2 knows it is difficult and never captures the true scene detail adequately. That 4G looks pretty nice, but I will be sticking w/ my L3 filmless WP
 <--- (typed with said WP on my head)
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Posted: 5/23/2017 11:07:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Ended up pulling the trigger on Intens. The discount applied made it basically the same price as an L3. Will let you know how it is, albeit with my untrained and unsophisticated eyes :)
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Based on those videos, the low light performance difference is definitely there, but not as huge as I would have guessed. That being said, anyone who has done photography or video through I^2 knows it is difficult and never captures the true scene detail adequately. That 4G looks pretty nice, but I will be sticking w/ my L3 filmless WP <--- (typed with said WP on my head) |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 3:38:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ended up pulling the trigger on Intens. The discount applied made it basically the same price as an L3. Will let you know how it is, albeit with my untrained and unsophisticated eyes :) Do you have a L3 tube to compare it to? |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:59:58 AM EDT
[#28]
I don't have a dog in this fight either, but it seems like this company is making pretty outlandish claims of performance. When I see this kind of marketing, I usually walk away. They may be legit. They may not. You are taking a big risk to find that out.
Based on what I've seen and read here, I would go with the L3. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 11:04:50 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I don't quite understand your point. I'm not sure I'd call the "intens" photocathode a gen2 given its much much wider spectral response... And the only real difference in "design format" between G2 and 3 is the PC, and ion barrier film (which of course g3 filmless tubes don't have). 
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Posted: 5/24/2017 11:55:13 AM EDT
[#30]
Unfortunately not - lol can't afford both toys :( maybe I can buy the FLIR boson when it's finally released.
If anyone knows who carries the l3 WP in the Houston area let me know! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please do. Do you have a L3 tube to compare it to? |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 11:58:08 AM EDT
[#31]
Good point - but the deal I got (including Wilcox equipment and Wendy helmet) pretty much put the tube at ~3k. Comes with a spec sheet as well so I thought the risk rewards was worth it :)
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't have a dog in this fight either, but it seems like this company is making pretty outlandish claims of performance. When I see this kind of marketing, I usually walk away. They may be legit. They may not. You are taking a big risk to find that out. Based on what I've seen and read here, I would go with the L3. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 3:44:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Good deal, good tube. I would be interested in your specs. Sure many would too..
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Posted: 5/24/2017 5:18:10 PM EDT
[#33]
FOM: 2018
Luminance gain: 13700 Resolution: 69 EBI: 0.17 SNR: 29.2 Halo: 0.80 Probably not the best tube but still decent Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good deal, good tube. I would be interested in your specs. Sure many would too.. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 5:25:48 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To the best of my knowledge, all of the designations for Generations of tube architecture are based on US Government involvement within the NV Industry. I would have to look at the architecture requirements for the different Generation tubes again to refresh my memory as to the specifics but, to the best of my knowledge, what Photonis calls Gen 4 is built on Gen 2 designs with enhancements that yield better performance. If Spectral Response for the Gen 2 tubes is enhanced with features that are not inherently Gen 3 in nature then the tube would still be regarded by many as Gen 2. I do not have a dog in this fight and, quite frankly, I am ready for a tube evaluation system that is not US centric that allows for more reasoned comparisons of tubes manufactured worldwide. Until recently, the US was THE main player on the field so it was workable for us to lean on the US Gov designations because there was little deviation in products of foreign origin. The improvements of foreign products requires some enhanced terminology to properly describe it. I never implied that the better Gen 2 (or Gen 4 or whatever it is called) stuff was not highly capable. I hope this clarifies my thoughts. If I am all wet then I am glad to listen to a reasoned approach as to how I am wrong. Gen2 used to mean an S20 or S25 photochode when it was introdocued, then in the 80's that turned into various versions of the S25extended red chemistry, and then in the late 80's and 90's even more advanced PC's were introduced by photonis and others. Gen3 mean Gallium arsenide PC's in the early 80's along with the ion barrier films that were required at the time to keep the MCP from getting poisoned... And continually improving GA PC's through the 90's, you can basically look at each succeeding omni generation that the PC numbers get better (generally). Gen4 was the holy grail for a while since it allowed you to have all the electrons off the GA, PC without a film eating up the electrons. Point is all of these technologies have been evolving for 40 years and still are. So I think its generally dumb to put some oversimplified G1/2/3/4/5 label on it. The new intens is at a guess some new type of PC chemistry to give it that amazingly wide spectral response, it certainly isn't a S25 photocahode, It probably isn't some GA based PC either. So its different... The main advantage it has is that its bandwidth is so huge it can take advantage of a huge part of the spectrum where traditional Gen2 and 3 PC's don't. Anyhow, I mainly laugh at people that assure me one "tech" is better than the other, because the answer is almost always "it depends". |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 5:29:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a PVS14 Gen2+ Autogated 10K+ tube life, but the tube itself has no markings. According to the MFG it a USA made MX11769 style tube, but there is no on the body it self. on the face there are some numbers that where XXXXXX out. A well respected member here told me it may be a Photoins tube. Is it possible that Photoins sold tubes that where unmarked? Thanks http://i.imgur.com/yRca4Bg.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Oa5xQhe.jpg |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 5:31:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FOM: 2018 Luminance gain: 13700 Resolution: 69 EBI: 0.17 SNR: 29.2 Halo: 0.80 Probably not the best tube but still decent |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 5:41:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FOM: 2018 Luminance gain: 13700 Resolution: 69 EBI: 0.17 SNR: 29.2 Halo: 0.80 Probably not the best tube but still decent Edit: I am not sure if Photonis has fiddled with their 4G spec, but I vividly remember it stating halo no larger than 0.7mm. Now their website says 4G max is 0.9, and then that INTENS tubes are max 0.7. So go figure. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 5:50:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point - but the deal I got (including Wilcox equipment and Wendy helmet) pretty much put the tube at ~3k. Comes with a spec sheet as well so I thought the risk rewards was worth it :) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point - but the deal I got (including Wilcox equipment and Wendy helmet) pretty much put the tube at ~3k. Comes with a spec sheet as well so I thought the risk rewards was worth it :) Quoted:
I don't have a dog in this fight either, but it seems like this company is making pretty outlandish claims of performance. When I see this kind of marketing, I usually walk away. They may be legit. They may not. You are taking a big risk to find that out. Based on what I've seen and read here, I would go with the L3. Rant off, and my company can lose thousands in sales but we will not succomb to the almigjty dollar and stand up for what is right. Good luck with your purchase. Vic DiCosola |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 5:52:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Ah sorry Vic didn't realize there was that much background to Team Wendy - I'll probably sell it off anyways and get a ballistic
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Worked out then because we do NOT offer or sell Team Wendy any more for good reason. We never forget Benghazi, the lies, AWB ban speeches all from Hillary Clinton nor from anyone who supports or allows her to use their factories and CEO's praising her and conducting AWB speeches. Rant off, and my company can lose thousands in sales but we will not succomb to the almigjty dollar and stand up for what is right. Good luck with your purchase. Vic DiCosola |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 6:18:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ended up pulling the trigger on Intens. The discount applied made it basically the same price as an L3. Will let you know how it is, albeit with my untrained and unsophisticated eyes :) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ended up pulling the trigger on Intens. The discount applied made it basically the same price as an L3. Will let you know how it is, albeit with my untrained and unsophisticated eyes :) Quoted:
Based on those videos, the low light performance difference is definitely there, but not as huge as I would have guessed. That being said, anyone who has done photography or video through I^2 knows it is difficult and never captures the true scene detail adequately. That 4G looks pretty nice, but I will be sticking w/ my L3 filmless WP <--- (typed with said WP on my head) |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 6:30:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure why you replied to my previous post, perhaps you thought I could answer your question. As for your tube I have no idea, it could be gen2 or 3 both are made the in MX11769 format, if there are no other identifiying marks I'm afraid I can't be more help. But it certainly could be Photonis. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:05:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hi Rich, Curious, what is your setup for these side by sides? 
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:06:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Worked out then because we do NOT offer or sell Team Wendy any more for good reason. We never forget Benghazi, the lies, AWB ban speeches all from Hillary Clinton nor from anyone who supports or allows her to use their factories and CEO's praising her and conducting AWB speeches. Rant off, and my company can lose thousands in sales but we will not succomb to the almigjty dollar and stand up for what is right. Good luck with your purchase. Vic DiCosola |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:22:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Thanks!! Yeah sorry if I caused too much consternation. I had a limited budget after having to pay some unexpected bills and to get an entire set up under what I could afford it's the best I could do.
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I absolutely understand not giving the company more money. Fk them. But why get on the guy for getting a used one? |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:30:17 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I absolutely understand not giving the company more money. Fk them. But why get on the guy for getting a used one? Certain dealers still think its ok to support Team Wendy,...Cool, for us as mentioned (correction) it was hundreds of thousands of sales given up with TW. All good, I did not get into this business for the almighty profit dollar. Someone has to stand up for what's right and the families of the fallen lost in Benghazi
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:34:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Amen to that! Will be ridding of the Team Wendy as soon as I get it! Thanks for all the help. Hopefully I can restock up to get a thermal soon to perfect the hunt :)
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks!! Yeah sorry if I caused too much consternation. I had a limited budget after having to pay some unexpected bills and to get an entire set up under what I could afford it's the best I could do. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 8:27:14 PM EDT
[#47]
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It's the closet thing I read that would get your attention. I really appreciate the reply since it seems you have the most knowledge about Photonis. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 8:27:31 PM EDT
[#48]
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iPhone 6s and iPhone SE w/ Night Optics PVS-14 adapters mounted on a Manfrotto fluid head and friction arm. https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4220/34873786025_932033ce74_c.jpg |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 8:33:34 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I only have one photonis tube, but I do have a ton of other gen2 and 3 gear. It does give one perspective. Maybe hit up Chosos or CJ7 they probably know more than me on these tubes in the US. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 9:34:21 PM EDT
[#50]
Cj7 knows much more than i do about photonis. I have only been fortunate enough to own various photonis tubes, and none were intens tubes.
I think you will be very happy with the tube. I am in a similar situation. I need a set of tubes to fill my sentinel housing, but i dont want to pay that price for the photonis intens when i can get filmless cheaper. Rich is probably the best person to ask having them both side by side. Rich, when you hunt what is your goto set, or are you rocking filmless for hunting and photonis for driving? |
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