What good is a visible Laser?? Plus additional question.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What good is a visible Laser?? Plus additional question.

Posted: 4/6/2017 10:31:38 AM EDT

Ok guys I have a CQBL that i acquired because it was small, lightweight for an SBR build and had a daylight/IR that was slaved. I figured having both is nice and being able to zero with the daylight laser and automatically sighting in the IR makes it even better.

Well I go to the range and at 25 and 50 yards, I can't even see the laser on the target, as in its not visible to me or my friends that were with me. The visible laser was on (checked by pointing at table, ground and hand). Went home and went in a long hallway and it was clearly visible.

Went in back yard measured out 25 yards from the fence and the laser just isn't visible.

Is this normal? If so why have a visible laser? Or am I doing something wrong?

Given the above I have another SBR that "needs" a laser. I have a M952V so I don't necessarily need another illuminator?

Suggestions and why please.

Posted: 4/6/2017 10:37:45 AM EDT

[#1]

Visible lasers aren't really visible in bright light. Needs to be overcast/dusk/inside to really make use of them. The last NODs class I took we didn't even sight the vis lasers in until dusk for exactly that reason. Some lasers are better than others.

Posted: 4/6/2017 10:44:13 AM EDT

[#2]

Quote History

Quoted:
Visible lasers aren't really visible in bright light. Needs to be overcast/dusk/inside to really make use of them. The last NODs class I took we didn't even sight the vis lasers in until dusk for exactly that reason. Some lasers are better than others.

View Quote

Given your answer, it seems that for general use (night time varmint, predator, hog hunting) a simple IR laser would be the best route to go. Thoughts?

Posted: 4/6/2017 11:00:19 AM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:

Given your answer, it seems that for general use (night time varmint, predator, hog hunting) a simple IR laser would be the best route to go. Thoughts?

View Quote

Depends. The vis laser has a place but you are right, for the most part they aren't needed outside of zeroing and even then it needs to be in certain conditions, as you saw. The MAWL vis laser is bright as hell and I can see it bright sunlight. Will I actually ever use it outside of zeroing? I highly doubt it.

Posted: 4/6/2017 12:27:25 PM EDT

[#4]

I have killed a lot of hogs and coyotes with my visible green lasers on my DBAL-Is, DBAL-I2s, DBAL-D2s, DBAL-A3s.

The red visible lasers are terrible for daytime use like on my ATPIAL-C, only good for cowitnessing with day scope to zero the IR with at sundown.

The visible green laser on my MAWL will soon be killing hogs and dogs too!

Posted: 4/6/2017 2:06:32 PM EDT

[#5]

You are not "doing anything wrong". Given the totality of your circumstances you may or may not get a benefit out of having a slaved visible laser. As a civilian that is limited to Class 1 IR lasers, if you are using it in a dynamically lit environment you may be able to see the visible dot better under NV. You can designate a door or line of approach to non-NV equipped personnel. You may have better targeting range with the visible laser than with the .7mW IR.

This is really the tip of the iceberg and it depends on your use. You may find no real purpose. True need should reveal itself in-application or during training. If this is a fighting gun then I would definitely keep the CQBL. It's value may just be out of reach of your current training and you may grow into it.

Posted: 4/6/2017 3:57:55 PM EDT

[#6]

I asked myself many of the same ??'s as the OP. I was going to go with a cqbl1 only to have a viz laser to help sight in. Mine will never be a fighting rifle, only used for hunting varmints (not hogs so much smaller). If the viz laser is relatively useless for sighting in, I will just get a UNI IR in green for $150 and struggle sighting in with it. Same problem, $700 less. If I can figure out an nd filter to reduce the dot size for small game at close ranges, it will serve my purpose-25-150 yds hunting.

Posted: 4/6/2017 10:22:19 PM EDT

[#7]

I see a lot of negative remarks about visible lasers.
But I ignore them.
If you use the visible lasers only so youngsters can shoot your rifle successfully while they are first learning how, it's worth having one.
I use DBAL I2 lasers on two rifles. One is fully set up for NV use. The other rifle is kept light and has only the DBAL for NV, for kids use, as a backup for the iron sights (6920 with Magpul rear BUIS) and for use if I ever merely WANT a laser.
The fact that a laser isn't visible far in broad, bright daylight is a pretty weak tea reason to reject them here in Oregon, where the weather is overcast more often than not, and everywhere else in the world where it is dark half the time.
Just one man's opinion.

Posted: 4/6/2017 10:27:45 PM EDT

[#8]

I like slaved vis laser; helps with zeroing. Works best in darker environments such as dusk or indoors.

Posted: 4/7/2017 12:31:20 AM EDT

[#9]

The green on my dbal d2 work fairly well. I can see it pretty good at 50 yards during a sunny day and depending on the color of the object it's hirtng 75 if I'm lucky.

I only use it for zeroing. If I was working in a team I guess you could use it to point stuff out during low light or daytime ops. Stuff like that. There is a YouTube video of guys on a rzr chasing hogs and popping them with an AR with a green laser. It's a calrazy video.

Here it is. Crazy!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfJG1PMjbY

Posted: 4/7/2017 1:30:36 AM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:

Given your answer, it seems that for general use (night time varmint, predator, hog hunting) a simple IR laser would be the best route to go. Thoughts?

View Quote

I would take an IR laser + illuminator over an IR laser + vis laser, but given a choice I'd rather have all of them.

Having to zero in the dark and not being able to check against irons/optics gets annoying.

Posted: 4/7/2017 3:24:31 AM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:

I would take an IR laser + illuminator over an IR laser + vis laser, but given a choice I'd rather have all of them.

Having to zero in the dark and not being able to check against irons/optics gets annoying.

View Quote

You can zero without using nv. In a dimmly lit room you can use your irons or rds with your IR laser to aim at a target. Your cell phone camera will pick up your IR laser on the target from 0-5 feet away. Your IR laser will appear as a light purple dot.

Posted: 4/7/2017 6:33:38 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

You can zero without using nv. In a dimmly lit room you can use your irons or rds with your IR laser to aim at a target. Your cell phone camera will pick up your IR laser on the target from 0-5 feet away. Your IR laser will appear as a light purple dot.

View Quote

Yeah, but my camera doesn't seem to want to see my IR laser at 50 yards for my zero. So for me, I have many indoor ranges available to me with 50-150 yard lanes. I can easily see the red laser on my CQBL at an indoor range and get my zero there.

I think this thread really shows how people in different circumstances, such as the availability of suitable indoor or night ranges for example, will perceive different value form different equipment. There's really no blanket right or wrong answer here.

Posted: 4/7/2017 8:51:03 AM EDT

[#13]

I agree. There are few places in this country where night hunting is a year round activity. Many places, (MO for example) don't even allow night hunting of any kind, so a gunshot at night even to sight your gun in is sure to result in a visit from LE. Couple that with a law (MO) that makes it illegal to be in possession of NV or thermal (no viz lights either) and a firearm at the same time and one's needs become much different, and make sighting in a big deal. Varmint hunters (even ones like me who go to other states to use their equipment) needs/circumstances are far different from the GI Joe's, hog hunters, or SHTF groups.

Posted: 4/7/2017 6:02:16 PM EDT

[#14]

My iPhone 6 Plus camera will not pick it up either. Fwiw.

Wow, you can't have NV and your gun together with you in MO? Wow! Talk about screwed up. @cmatera

Posted: 4/7/2017 6:33:52 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
I agree. There are few places in this country where night hunting is a year round activity. Many places, (MO for example) don't even allow night hunting of any kind, so a gunshot at night even to sight your gun in is sure to result in a visit from LE. Couple that with a law (MO) that makes it illegal to be in possession of NV or thermal (no viz lights either) and a firearm at the same time and one's needs become much different, and make sighting in a big deal. Varmint hunters (even ones like me who go to other states to use their equipment) needs/circumstances are far different from the GI Joe's, hog hunters, or SHTF groups.

View Quote

If you think about the totality of circumstances then your last sentence is not necessarily true. A combatant could easily find himself in a position of needing to zero a weapon without firing shots.

This is one area where absolute cowitness shines.

1) Zero your irons live fire
2) Zero the RDS to the irons (no shots fired)
3) Zero the laser to the RDS (no shots fired)

It sounds to me like this system works for you - but it was driven by needs for combat.

Posted: 4/7/2017 7:51:07 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
My iPhone 6 Plus camera will not pick it up either. Fwiw.

Wow, you can't have NV and your gun together with you in MO? Wow! Talk about screwed up. @cmatera

View Quote

I moved here from Il where we had a 4 month 24/7 coyote season. MO has great gun laws regarding self defense, but terrible laws regarding hunting. After looking at the regs, it's surprising how many states restrict night hunting and the use of nv and thermal. WY-private land only, Utah and NV-on a county by county basis, CO-flashlights only. Some states allow nv, but no ir illuminators or laser aiming devices. Seems like the states with a feral hog problem are more embracing of nv, thermal and night hunting.

Posted: 4/7/2017 7:59:12 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you think about the totality of circumstances then your last sentence is not necessarily true. A combatant could easily find himself in a position of needing to zero a weapon without firing shots.

This is one area where absolute cowitness shines.

1) Zero your irons live fire
2) Zero the RDS to the irons (no shots fired)
3) Zero the laser to the RDS (no shots fired)

It sounds to me like this system works for you - but it was driven by needs for combat.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I agree. There are few places in this country where night hunting is a year round activity. Many places, (MO for example) don't even allow night hunting of any kind, so a gunshot at night even to sight your gun in is sure to result in a visit from LE. Couple that with a law (MO) that makes it illegal to be in possession of NV or thermal (no viz lights either) and a firearm at the same time and one's needs become much different, and make sighting in a big deal. Varmint hunters (even ones like me who go to other states to use their equipment) needs/circumstances are far different from the GI Joe's, hog hunters, or SHTF groups.

If you think about the totality of circumstances then your last sentence is not necessarily true. A combatant could easily find himself in a position of needing to zero a weapon without firing shots.

This is one area where absolute cowitness shines.

1) Zero your irons live fire
2) Zero the RDS to the irons (no shots fired)
3) Zero the laser to the RDS (no shots fired)

It sounds to me like this system works for you - but it was driven by needs for combat.

I have 6 or 8 ar's for hunting. None have iron sights, or red dots. Most high end lasers will have way to big a dot to use on small animals at close ranges. I'm thinking I'll just skip a new illuminator and laser. and take the $1,500-$2500 and apply it to a good thermal,that I can use day and night with a precise reticle for aiming.

Posted: 4/7/2017 8:39:47 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

I have 6 or 8 ar's for hunting. None have iron sights, or red dots. Most high end lasers will have way to big a dot to use on small animals at close ranges. I'm thinking I'll just skip a new illuminator and laser. and take the $1,500-$2500 and apply it to a good thermal,that I can use day and night with a precise reticle for aiming.

View Quote

A lot of people report good results with using a filter on the IR pointer to get a nice sharp "spot" to aim with.

Posted: 4/7/2017 9:26:40 PM EDT

[#19]

True, but on all but a few models, you pretty much have to make one yourself and hope you can get it to work.

Posted: 4/7/2017 10:24:59 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
True, but on all but a few models, you pretty much have to make one yourself and hope you can get it to work.

View Quote

If you get one of the round body lasers it is pretty easy. You just place a filter the same size as the body in the front and cram the appropriate Butler Creek cover over the two and it holds the arrangement together.

Posted: 4/9/2017 9:17:13 AM EDT

[#21]

My primary anticipated use for a visible laser on a fighting rifle is for that situation where I want to make it absolutely clear to somebody that I WILL SHOOT YOU IF YOU DO NOT DO EXACTLY WHAT I TELL YOU TO DO!

I've seen a lot of guys say it made a big difference in combat, such as when a car was approaching a checkpoint and not slowing down.

Posted: 4/9/2017 12:32:44 PM EDT

[#22]

No one has mentioned the use of odd shooting positions or using a pro-mask. But i doubt the majority of folks train with those parameters too.

Posted: 4/13/2017 7:37:11 AM EDT

[#23]

I think Bravo Sierra hit the nail on the head there. I thought a visible laser was just a toy until I read about the training at DARC. When forced to fight without being able to get your eye behind your RDS/ iron sights (in this case because they have to wear protective masks), the laser shines. Also for signaling as SOT pointed out. And shooting from unusual positions. And yeah sure, the intimidation factor. If none of these things apply to you, then you don't need it. But for combat, especially in "built up areas", which was mil-speak for urban areas in my time, I think they give you some excellent aiming and signaling options.

Posted: 4/13/2017 11:12:57 AM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
No one has mentioned the use of odd shooting positions or using a pro-mask. But i doubt the majority of folks train with those parameters too.

View Quote

My mind was fully blown the first time I saw someone poke his barrel through a hole in a wall and had someone several yards away from him (peeking through a different hole) walk his laser dot onto a target for a hit. Beirut Offhand came of age with use of the laser. It is no longer a spray and pray option.

Posted: 4/13/2017 5:20:35 PM EDT

[#25]

Yeah I agree; being able to shoot from unusual positions, where you aren't behind the sights is a viable technique. Now you can argue what the likelihood of you employing it is, but to answer the OP, it is a legit T,T,P.

"Beruit off-hand", huh, no shit. That covers a lot of ground. As in practically every shot of some Arab "freedom fighter" doing a mag dump for the news crew.

Posted: 4/13/2017 6:09:42 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yeah I agree; being able to shoot from unusual positions, where you aren't behind the sights is a viable technique. Now you can argue what the likelihood of you employing it is, but to answer the OP, it is a legit T,T,P.

"Beruit off-hand", huh, no shit. That covers a lot of ground. As in practically every shot of some Arab "freedom fighter" doing a mag dump for the news crew.

View Quote

You make your own "likelihood" with movement. This is where 3 Gun matches fail. They can't capture with a shot timer the magic that movement adds to a fight.

Posted: 4/15/2017 9:14:04 AM EDT

[#27]

Or the fact that the targets get a vote as well. It's not a frozen tableau to manipulate. I think realistic FoF like DARC and others takes training to another level.

But back to the OP, if you have a low powered viz laser, it would be an excellent tool for signaling, if you're working with a team, or even unusual shooting apps, if inside say 20m, which might work out for a SBR for "Ratten Kreig". The fact that it washes out past contact distances might be a plus in some cases.

Posted: 4/15/2017 2:55:31 PM EDT

[#28]

Visible lasers can be extremely useful/helpful, but they cover a narrow range of situations, many of which the "average" shooter that is not being issued equipment (and often many who are) will never need to employ them. Nevertheless, personally, I prefer having them.

That being said, IMHO, having an IR illuminator and laser in a single device is more important than having an IR and VIS laser in the same device. Most "top of the line" devices will give you all three, but some older and/or lower cost units will force you to choose.

Dual-spectrum lights are fine, but not, IMHO, necessary with the availability of civilian-legal full service devices, as the use of the on-board illuminator is preferable for targeting purposes.

~Augee

Posted: 4/15/2017 6:43:19 PM EDT

[#29]

Thank God for the Green Visible Laser on my BE Meyers MAWL!

Shot this 410 pound boar hog last night with the .308 and FLIR T-70 at 3AM and bowled him over but he got up and made it into some thick brush.

Scanned with handheld thermals for an hour hiking all over the area and could not pick up a heat signature.

Woke up this AM and headed back out with KAC-15 to see if I could find where he had bedded down for the night.

After hiking back and forth through the thick brush for an hour almost getting lost, suddenly I came up on him bedded down 25 feet in front of me.

Shot him in the side and the ass with 77gr SMK using the green laser but he made it into even thicker brush.

Circled around the thick stuff where I thought he was for another 30 minutes and suddenly he came charging out in front of me @ 25 feet, green laser planted on his head and ten shots put him down for the count.

Hog weighed 410 pounds.

Green Visible Lasers during the day are just awesome!

Posted: 4/15/2017 9:14:41 PM EDT

[#30]

Another reason I really like the Green Vis laser during the day is that in close quarters in thick woods on a moving target the day optic (Truijicon ACOG) is virtually worthless, the Truijicon RMR red dot is almost worthless getting blocked by numerous interference's, but the green dot showing up on the targets head means there is a clear unobstructed bullet path directly to the laser dot and pulling the trigger puts the bullets on target instantly.

Posted: 4/16/2017 1:03:09 AM EDT

[#31]

I am a bit of a semiconductor laser geek and love green lasers so you guys should know...there are direct green diode lasers now...just like the red laser pointers and aiming lasers everybody has seen. They are new enough I have yet to see any weapons lasers that are direct green...IE green diodes...vs DPSS green. DPSS green uses a 808nm pump laser to excite a ND:YV04 chip which lases at 1064nm which passes through a frequency doubling KTP crystal to get 532nm green. These lasers are temp and shock sensitive. Direct diode greens are far more rugged and less temp sensitive. On my desk as I type this is a 520nm diode green pointer I designed with a Nichia Laser diode. It runs on 3AA cells and outputs 86mw...it makes a great daytime/full sunlight pointer.

It is NOT eye safe. I have a bigger direct green laser which is class 4 and burns through folger coffee plastic can tops and sides with ease. It is over 1.2 watts and is very dangerous. But fun!!!!

Every green sight I have seen is 532nm(complex and fragile)...hopefully direct greens will replace them. 5mw should be enough for anybody but you would not believe what over 1.2 watts looks like!!! (Insert mad scientist laugh here)

Too complex or TLDR....wait. Better gear is coming.

Hopefully.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What good is a visible Laser?? Plus additional question.

Armory » NV Tech Talk

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us