User Panel
To much to read.
Get gen 3, it's night and day difference and doesn't need moon light or suplemental IR |
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IMHO if you know how to use your gear and its limitations your better off than someone who relies on the lastest and great and never trains with it. If you where to come against someone with gen3 NV the biggest advantage is the ability to look in the darkest areas, so even the playing field and stay out of thoses areas. In a cqb situation white as well as IR light will blind any gen NV.
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IMHO if you know how to use your gear and its limitations your better off than someone who relies on the lastest and great and never trains with it. If you where to come against someone with gen3 NV the biggest advantage is the ability to look in the darkest areas, so even the playing field and stay out of thoses areas. In a cqb situation white as well as IR light will blind any gen NV. View Quote I have always wondered why in America people refer to a situation where you are fighting someone with all this tactical gear in a "cqb" situation... Do many open wars happen in the USA where you are up against an armed force using Gen 3? or are we training for an end of world situation here? |
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The pigs don't seem to notice the IR lights. If you're fighting someone with NV, by all means get the best. If not, a lot else can be functional if not as convenient.
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Most of us including myself started with Gen 1. We then learned it sucked and stepped up to Gen 2 or 3. Only Gen 1 I would own would be a cascade tube. Those are pretty good.
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I have always wondered why in America people refer to a situation where you are fighting someone with all this tactical gear in a "cqb" situation... Do many open wars happen in the USA where you are up against an armed force using Gen 3? or are we training for an end of world situation here? View Quote It's usually because people usually buy gear to fill multiple rolls with HD being at the top of the list. It's almost the same reasoning as carrying a CCW, you probably never use it, but just in case you did you'd want to have it. Sure a .22 will help, but a 10mm would be better in the right hands. No training with the biggest and baddest doesn't guarantee the best results. |
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I have always wondered why in America people refer to a situation where you are fighting someone with all this tactical gear in a "cqb" situation... Do many open wars happen in the USA where you are up against an armed force using Gen 3? or are we training for an end of world situation here? View Quote Your phrasing allows too many permutations. I'm trying to understand. Are you saying we should neglect contact distance fighting? Why does the type of combat matter? Things get blurry in real fights, even small ones. Should I only prepare to fight one kind of adversary? If I were to prepare to only fight one adversary, should that situation necessarily entail me facing a foe that is untrained and overwhelmed by my abilities and equipment? Should I only prepare to refight the conflict in which I had most recently engaged? If you would care to rephrase then I would be glad to reread. If I do understand your implications and inferences then I disagree with them but, for now, I am unsure. |
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Your phrasing allows too many permutations. I'm trying to understand. Are you saying we should neglect contact distance fighting? Why does the type of combat matter? Things get blurry in real fights, even small ones. Should I only prepare to fight one kind of adversary? If I were to prepare to only fight one adversary, should that situation necessarily entail me facing a foe that is untrained and overwhelmed by my abilities and equipment? Should I only prepare to refight the conflict in which I had most recently engaged? If you would care to rephrase then I would be glad to reread. If I do understand your implications and inferences then I disagree with them but, for now, I am unsure. View Quote You should be prepared for any situation you may encounter. Sorry if your trying to learn everything for a post on the Internet. |
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You should be prepared for any situation you may encounter. Sorry if your trying to learn everything for a post on the Internet. View Quote That was my take on his leading questions - that there is a set direction necessary for training. I don't believe in that. Conflict is like a mist - all around you and constantly changing. If you do not have a well-rounded skillset then your adversary will find that weakness. You can't know exactly what your next fight will resemble so you prepare for all reasonable possibilities. I think it was Pogue that stated regarding educational material on the internet: "The internet covers every subject on Earth - but it's all one inch deep. You need to get away from the net to go any further." Quite frankly, he nailed it. I get some good ideas from the net, then I put them to the grinder and see how they fare. Something else that eludes some people: Studying the attack builds direct skill in the attack but also reveals weakness in the adversaries' defenses. ...and the corollary: Studying defense builds direct skill in defense but also reveals weakness in the adversaries' attack. (I learned this while studying cyber-attacks but it translates well into physical force conflict.) If I'm designing a training scenario then I'm constantly toggling my brain from attack to defense - that gives you a total view of the fight. In real life it can help predict how a conflict will unfold. |
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I now have Gen 1 , Gen 2 SD , Gen 2 ID , Gen 3 (non-auto gated) and both Handheld and Mounted Thermal.
Save your $$ and skip Gen 1 . I bought all of the above used except the Thermal Handheld , it was just a great new deal. Here's the deal , a bunch of guys buy new planning on going hunting all the time and never do , after a few years they decide to sell the gear and take a beating. Entry level is used Gen 2+ on the EE & Ebay , Within the last month I have bought Gen 2+ SD Armasight rifle scope for $800 and ATN Gen2+ ID Goggles for $650. Both in like new condition. True , no warranty , but at less than half price I'm OK w/ that. One caution tho buying used NV that is several years old , a lot of the accessories are out of stock and can be hard to find. The more pieces that come w/ the used deal the better. Example: I need a ATN part # ACGONVG7HMA7 to mount my used ATN NVG7 Gen 2+ ID goggles to a standard issue Rhino ll mount and not ATN or anyone else I can find has one in stock. Any Help from ARFCOM???? |
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IMHO if you know how to use your gear and its limitations your better off than someone who relies on the lastest and great and never trains with it. If you where to come against someone with gen3 NV the biggest advantage is the ability to look in the darkest areas, so even the playing field and stay out of thoses areas. In a cqb situation white as well as IR light will blind any gen NV. View Quote I agree. Again I don't know much but I don't see how I could out maneuver even a school kid wearing gen 3 while I was donning my Spark. Without the IR you could barely see lol. So I don't knowhoed you'd get to the dark areas. |
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I have always wondered why in America people refer to a situation where you are fighting someone with all this tactical gear in a "cqb" situation... Do many open wars happen in the USA where you are up against an armed force using Gen 3? or are we training for an end of world situation here? View Quote Well first off I got these for fun. Statistically, the chances of me using these in anger are small. I think the most chance I'd have of using them is HD. Which is why I figured I'd say if you're dirt poor with no chance of saving up go for the Spark because in my 15 foot living room, with the built in IR, it wasn't terrible. End of the world? I'm not sure how you'd even begin training for that?! Lol. I guess go by what is statistically most likely to happen. But guess what? Take meds you have to get from a pharmacy? Lol. You dead. So I buy most of this stuff because I enjoy it. I enjoy training. If I have and need it? Awesome. End of world? Im screwed anyway. |
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I now have Gen 1 , Gen 2 SD , Gen 2 ID , Gen 3 (non-auto gated) and both Handheld and Mounted Thermal. Save your $ and skip Gen 1 . I bought all of the above used except the Thermal Handheld , it was just a great new deal. Here's the deal , a bunch of guys buy new planning on going hunting all the time and never do , after a few years they decide to sell the gear and take a beating. Entry level is used Gen 2+ on the EE & Ebay , Within the last month I have bought Gen 2+ SD Armasight rifle scope for $800 and ATN Gen2+ ID Goggles for $650. Both in like new condition. True , no warranty , but at less than half price I'm OK w/ that. One caution tho buying used NV that is several years old , a lot of the accessories are out of stock and can be hard to find. The more pieces that come w/ the used deal the better. Example: I need a ATN part # ACGONVG7HMA7 to mount my used ATN NVG7 Gen 2+ ID goggles to a standard issue Rhino ll mount and not ATN or anyone else I can find has one in stock. Any Help from ARFCOM???? View Quote I don't suppose you could post a pic? I have pvs-7's and I bought a Rhino II mount and it WILL NOT mount no matter what I do. I just bought a first gen rhino to see if that would work. The pvs 7 just seems like it won't go into the mount far enough to engage. Even if it does I seems the tooth will barely engage the metal bump on the mount. Driving me out of my mind. Nvm. I just looked up that part. I'm just trying to get my actual pvs 7 into a damn rhino two mount and it just won't go. Very irritating. |
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I have always wondered why in America people refer to a situation where you are fighting someone with all this tactical gear in a "cqb" situation... Do many open wars happen in the USA where you are up against an armed force using Gen 3? or are we training for an end of world situation here? View Quote As a civilian the most likely scenario where I would have to Defend myself is at close distances in my home. But I plan and train to fight at all distances, during the day, during the night, with pistols, rifles, shot guns, hand to hand, with body aromor and without. if it's a crack head kicking in your back door you won't have time to put all your tactical gear on, but during times of civil/political unrest, natural disasters, infrastructure problems, etc... Having the training and the gear necessary to give you the edge over the common criminal may very well save your life. When it's you, your wife and a couple small children against a gang of thugs looting people's homes you need every advantage you can get. most criminal activity is committed at night, criminals prefer the cover of darkness and the fact that most of society is sleeping. Having quality night vision and the knowledge on how to use it will allow you to detect or if necessary engage a dangerous individual without knowing you are there or giving away your position. NV is more of an offensive tool but as they say sometimes the best defense is a good offense. NV isn't for everyone and for those on a budget there are many self defense items to own and training to get before even considering NV. But for those who have more cash to work with and a greater interest in firearms and self defense it is just one more tool we have at our disposal. |
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I don't suppose you could post a pic? I have pvs-7's and I bought a Rhino II mount and it WILL NOT mount no matter what I do. I just bought a first gen rhino to see if that would work. The pvs 7 just seems like it won't go into the mount far enough to engage. Even if it does I seems the tooth will barely engage the metal bump on the mount. Driving me out of my mind. Nvm. I just looked up that part. I'm just trying to get my actual pvs 7 into a damn rhino two mount and it just won't go. Very irritating. View Quote |
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file the tip of the bayonet lug to get i a solid lock up, but go slow and evenly. A standard J Arm will fit either a standard Rhino or a Rhino II View Quote I may be wrong but it's not a J arm. It's built right into the housing of my pvs-7. Everything looks fine. It just doesn't even come close to lucking up. |
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I may be wrong but it's not a J arm. It's built right into the housing of my pvs-7. Everything looks fine. It just doesn't even come close to lucking up. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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file the tip of the bayonet lug to get i a solid lock up, but go slow and evenly. A standard J Arm will fit either a standard Rhino or a Rhino II I may be wrong but it's not a J arm. It's built right into the housing of my pvs-7. Everything looks fine. It just doesn't even come close to lucking up. We covered this pretty well within the past couple of weeks. Find that thread. It was for the J-Arm but the principal is the same - it's just that the bayo lug is built into your housing. EDIT: Here's the title - "Norotos RHNO II and J-Arm not working? Pics up" |
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If the worry is fighting gen3 equipped bad guys in the house at touching distance, I think there are bigger concerns than which NV to get. Are there any recorded situations where a bad guy, let alone multiple bad guys, enter a house of a random person to rob/kill them wearing gen3 (or any gen really) where the IR light of the spark is going to give you away? It feels like this is a really really random concern and short of doing a lot of really bad things and pissing off the government or pissing off some really really bad people this would never happen. The better training would appear to be to not piss off powerful and rich people, good guys or bad guys.
Don't get me wrong, whatever you want to do with your time and money is yours to do as long as it isn't hurting anyone else. So train for those situations if you like. Statistically, spending that money and time on defensive driving, anger management, improving your health are much much more likely to save your life. Even if you could find 5 cases last year where this happened, statistically, you are 10,000x more likely to die from liver issues, 11,000x more likely to die from flu/pneumonia, 15,000x more likely to die from diabetes, not to mention stroke, chronic respiratory disease, cancer, and heart disease. Taking care of your health is going to be millions of times more likely to save your life and is worthy of millions of times more effort and focus. And what's this about civil unrest and natural disaster stuff? If it's a local issue, the first plan will be to evacuate. If it's national, or big enough an evacuation isn't possible, well things like food and water are going to be much more important than IR discipline. It's not like when a natural disaster hits people start killing for fun. You see looting but stealing a TV isn't the same as coming in the night to murder your family. If the worry is a flood, fire, wind, etc that has knocked the system down, you really should be worrying first about getting to safety and not standing your ground in your house at fighting distance worried that someone else with gen3 NV is coming to get you. It feels like a lot of this is being paranoid and passing it off as being prepared. If it's what you enjoy spending your time doing/thinking about, by all means enjoy. I'm not going to be convinced that having NV, let alone gen3 NV is a tool everyone should have to be prepared. It's fun to own gen 3 NV and I enjoy using it but it's just for fun. I'm no soldier and I know my odds of needing gen3 NV to defend myself from a home invassion is less likely than slipping on turd the puppy couldn't hold on overnight and hitting my head on the night stand. Though that fear doesn't cause me to get rid of the puppy either. We get caught up in these highly unlikely scenarios and spend loads of time, effort, and money preparing for them while ignoring the most likely issues and underpreparing for them. Just be realistic with your odds is all. |
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If the worry is fighting gen3 equipped bad guys in the house at touching distance, I think there are bigger concerns than which NV to get. Are there any recorded situations where a bad guy, let alone multiple bad guys, enter a house of a random person to rob/kill them wearing gen3 (or any gen really) where the IR light of the spark is going to give you away? It feels like this is a really really random concern and short of doing a lot of really bad things and pissing off the government or pissing off some really really bad people this would never happen. The better training would appear to be to not piss off powerful and rich people, good guys or bad guys. Don't get me wrong, whatever you want to do with your time and money is yours to do as long as it isn't hurting anyone else. So train for those situations if you like. Statistically, spending that money and time on defensive driving, anger management, improving your health are much much more likely to save your life. Even if you could find 5 cases last year where this happened, statistically, you are 10,000x more likely to die from liver issues, 11,000x more likely to die from flu/pneumonia, 15,000x more likely to die from diabetes, not to mention stroke, chronic respiratory disease, cancer, and heart disease. Taking care of your health is going to be millions of times more likely to save your life and is worthy of millions of times more effort and focus. And what's this about civil unrest and natural disaster stuff? If it's a local issue, the first plan will be to evacuate. If it's national, or big enough an evacuation isn't possible, well things like food and water are going to be much more important than IR discipline. It's not like when a natural disaster hits people start killing for fun. You see looting but stealing a TV isn't the same as coming in the night to murder your family. If the worry is a flood, fire, wind, etc that has knocked the system down, you really should be worrying first about getting to safety and not standing your ground in your house at fighting distance worried that someone else with gen3 NV is coming to get you. It feels like a lot of this is being paranoid and passing it off as being prepared. If it's what you enjoy spending your time doing/thinking about, by all means enjoy. I'm not going to be convinced that having NV, let alone gen3 NV is a tool everyone should have to be prepared. It's fun to own gen 3 NV and I enjoy using it but it's just for fun. I'm no soldier and I know my odds of needing gen3 NV to defend myself from a home invassion is less likely than slipping on turd the puppy couldn't hold on overnight and hitting my head on the night stand. Though that fear doesn't cause me to get rid of the puppy either. We get caught up in these highly unlikely scenarios and spend loads of time, effort, and money preparing for them while ignoring the most likely issues and underpreparing for them. Just be realistic with your odds is all. View Quote People come to this forum because they have an interest in night vision equipment. If they need guidance on other topics then they are free to find it elsewhere. Your comments are not criticism - they are only complaints - and are a distraction from the topic of night vision. The time of the thread participants involved here may be better served elsewhere but that is not for you to decide. As well meaning as you may think you are, you come off as being cold and mean-spirited. We are all big boy's here. The OP made an observation from his perspective and he wants to share it. I know from past experience as an instructor that the mental process of wording experiences for the purpose of training students teaches the INSTRUCTOR as well. Don't pop the OP's balloon. Let him have his moment. No one is making you read this. |
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If the worry is fighting gen3 equipped bad guys in the house at touching distance, I think there are bigger concerns than which NV to get. Are there any recorded situations where a bad guy, let alone multiple bad guys, enter a house of a random person to rob/kill them wearing gen3 (or any gen really) where the IR light of the spark is going to give you away? It feels like this is a really really random concern and short of doing a lot of really bad things and pissing off the government or pissing off some really really bad people this would never happen. The better training would appear to be to not piss off powerful and rich people, good guys or bad guys. Don't get me wrong, whatever you want to do with your time and money is yours to do as long as it isn't hurting anyone else. So train for those situations if you like. Statistically, spending that money and time on defensive driving, anger management, improving your health are much much more likely to save your life. Even if you could find 5 cases last year where this happened, statistically, you are 10,000x more likely to die from liver issues, 11,000x more likely to die from flu/pneumonia, 15,000x more likely to die from diabetes, not to mention stroke, chronic respiratory disease, cancer, and heart disease. Taking care of your health is going to be millions of times more likely to save your life and is worthy of millions of times more effort and focus. And what's this about civil unrest and natural disaster stuff? If it's a local issue, the first plan will be to evacuate. If it's national, or big enough an evacuation isn't possible, well things like food and water are going to be much more important than IR discipline. It's not like when a natural disaster hits people start killing for fun. You see looting but stealing a TV isn't the same as coming in the night to murder your family. If the worry is a flood, fire, wind, etc that has knocked the system down, you really should be worrying first about getting to safety and not standing your ground in your house at fighting distance worried that someone else with gen3 NV is coming to get you. It feels like a lot of this is being paranoid and passing it off as being prepared. If it's what you enjoy spending your time doing/thinking about, by all means enjoy. I'm not going to be convinced that having NV, let alone gen3 NV is a tool everyone should have to be prepared. It's fun to own gen 3 NV and I enjoy using it but it's just for fun. I'm no soldier and I know my odds of needing gen3 NV to defend myself from a home invassion is less likely than slipping on turd the puppy couldn't hold on overnight and hitting my head on the night stand. Though that fear doesn't cause me to get rid of the puppy either. We get caught up in these highly unlikely scenarios and spend loads of time, effort, and money preparing for them while ignoring the most likely issues and underpreparing for them. Just be realistic with your odds is all. View Quote I think youre making a lot of bad assumptions. Not everyone on arfcom is overweight and in bad health. Many of us are in excellent shape so telling us to loose weight and eat better before buying NV is kind of silly. Sure there might be a couple 600+ lb guys on this forum and they should loose weight but there is no weight requirment to buy NV. Besides maybe it would get him out of the house and walking and make him loose some weight. You also assume that we are all completely unprepared and NV is the first self defense item we are purchasing. Most of use already have the food, water, shelter, medical gear, training, etc... already in place and NV is not the first item in our preparedness strategy, but instead one of the final pieces of the puzzle. There are many members on here that are active LEO or military and ask questions and look for the latest and greatest products companys like TNVC and others have to offer that will help them do their jobs. Others go hog hunting or use NV/Thermal to spot game, some people use NV to go star gazing. In America we dont have to justify why we buy something. If someone wants to drive to work in a 750 HP, $100,000+ sports car that is their choice. Is it necessary? No, a $1,000 used honda civic will do just fine. Hell a bus pass will work too. Do people NEED NV? No, statistically they probably wont ever us it for self defense but its their choice. But if were taking that mentality 99.99% of the people on this forum and all American in general will never use ANY firearm in self defense, do you think people should not own firearms either? we have a name for people like that, we call them "Liberals" This is a nation of the people, by the people, for the people and our founding fathers had the fore thought to put laws in place to makes sure we would always be able to defend our selves from threats both foreign or domestic. Many American citizens have believed it necessary to keep themselves armed to a level at least equal to that of a common foot solider so if called upon they could gather together with their family, friends, and neighbors to form militias and defend their nation and way of life. These beliefs are not new and extend back into medieval Europe where soldiers were expected to bring their own armament when called into battle. 500+ years ago that meant a sword and shield, 200 years ago that meant a musket, 100 years ago it was a bolt action rifle, 50 years ago it might have been a M1 Garand, 10 years ago it was a AR15 w/ a red dot. Today, with the advances in technology NV is not only in use by all branches of our military and most LEO agencies but is easily accessible and affordable for civilians as well. Our military and law enforcement often prefers to operate at night due to the advantage the cover of darkness offers. I know its highly unlikely, but statics aside, if you were ever called upon to defense your nation, showing up with just and AR15/AK, but with no optics, no NV, no body armor, no tatical gear, etc... will put you on par with soldiers from most third world countries. Do you want to actually help or just be cannon fodder? |
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Maybe I could have worded my post better.
I've heard the saying that poor writing is a sign of jumbled thinking (paraphrases) and in this case, due to my ignorance, it's probably true. I probably just should have said what everyone else does. Lol. Skip the gen 1 unless you really can't afford more. My one observation is that the Spark did offer a very clear picture IMO. At least in the middle if the viewing area and with the proper IR lighting. Oh, and even though it's been on my radar for a long time this is literally the last major piece of "prep" kit I needed. I bought a silencer last September (which I still don't have, farking ATF). Plate carrier. Belts, this and that. Got it. Of course I need training. A lot. Statistically the one poster is probably correct. But I'm nit doing all of this out if paranoia. I honestly enjoy it and would still do it if there was peace on Earth. But make NO mistake. A lot of people have died due to nit being prepared and trained. If something bad happens I want the best possible chance for one reason and one reason only. To protect my wife and three year old daughter. Read history and talk to people. You wouldn't believe the vile, disgusting, subhuman things that can happen to women and children in bad situations. I'll do my best to make sure that won't happen to mine. |
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There are some limited cases where Gen 1 stuff makes sense.
If you have a budget and it really is a hard budget, then Gen 1 might be all you can get. If you just want to be able to look around in the dark without animals and other people seeing you. A Gen 1 setup with illumination can do that. In most cases however, the value you get from Gen 3 far outweighs the additional cost. |
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There are some limited cases where Gen 1 stuff makes sense. If you have a budget and it really is a hard budget, then Gen 1 might be all you can get. If you just want to be able to look around in the dark without animals and other people seeing you. A Gen 1 setup with illumination can do that. In most cases however, the value you get from Gen 3 far outweighs the additional cost. View Quote That's another point I was getting at. I think people (I did) look at gen three pvs-14's from TNVC and go $3000+?! No fucking way. Then they look around quickly and see used prices are still really high. So I thought $600 on my Spark was a steal. But then I really started researching and watching EE and the bay. I just saw a gen three pvs-7 civilian version (whatever that means) go for less than $900 and a blem pvs-7 go for $600. Bad blem but still useable. I found a $1750 pvs-14 too but I didn't buy in time. Point is you don't have to drop as much money as you think and I didn't spend the time to find that out. It was a $300 "stupid" tax I paid since I lost $300 selling the Spark. That could have been the $ I needed to bump into pvs-14 territory instead of the 7 I got. (Not that I regret it at all. I love it completely). So again, to the noobs, if you want to putz around your living room and that's all you'll ever do get the Spark. Otherwise keep a sharp on EE and drop another $800(ish) in addition to what the Spark cost and get a gen three pvs-7 :) |
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A tad over $600
when you could buy a FLIR scout TK - the most entry level thermal which will absolutely destroy any gen 1 NVG's. ETA for those who care: detection range for me last weekend - I had zero problem seeing deer in the garden 190 yards away. Identify range would be somewhere around 90-120 yards depending on conditions. for my use a pvs14 on my head and a scout TK in my pocket is perfect for the money. |
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A tad over $600 when you could buy a FLIR scout TK - the most entry level thermal which will absolutely destroy any gen 1 NVG's. ETA for those who care: detection range for me last weekend - I had zero problem seeing deer in the garden 190 yards away. Identify range would be somewhere around 90-120 yards depending on conditions. for my use a pvs14 on my head and a scout TK in my pocket is perfect for the money. View Quote This is the way I was going, but the rechargeable only Scout TK was a deal breaker for me, I would rather have a battery/battery only option, which is why I cant wait for the FLIR Q14B to come out. |
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Gen 1 sucks!! I mean it can be somewhat useful if you're on a tight budget and have a good IR flashlight and maybe a nice bright moon out wouldn't hurt either, ha. Gen 2 and Gen 3 are worlds better!! Cost more, but it's actually useful. All my Gen 1 stuff I got back in high school is in the garbage can now. My dad has a Gen 2 unit which is decent enough for navigating at night. I have a Gen 3 unit which is awesome!! I highly recommend spending around $3K and getting a nice PVS-14 helmet mount rig. If you can't afford that, then go Gen 2 for something more reasonable, I think my dad spent like $2K on his Gen 2 unit.
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