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Posted: 6/29/2017 2:24:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Hey cool but props to Augee for bringing that up, not to mention SOT and others who have contributed to this thread. I have just validated what they said.
Yeah I don't want to piss in anyone's Cheerios, but that dang OTAL has been really awesome, for what I need it for. Not having a built-in illum, or viz laser for zero, or ON button, etc. just hasn't really been any issue(s). It gives you an IR laser in a light weight, economical package. Adding a viz/IR light isn't that big of a deal. If you add a TAPS Pro to the mix, you have a very viable system. On the riser, I am finding I just LIKE it, period, for all light conditions. And it does give you another tool in your kit for NV use. I would think that hunters would be especially interested in the fact that you only need IR illum, using your RDS reticle for aiming. |
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Posted: 6/30/2017 7:27:56 AM EDT
[#2]
For you guys with a passive engagement setup, do you use a 1/2 riser under a lower 1/3 cowitness mount, or a full cowitness mount?
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Posted: 6/30/2017 7:57:57 AM EDT
[#3]
I am still using the same 1/3 co-witness set up I had before I did this. I added a Burris 3-slot riser underneath the front sight so they are co-witnessed exactly where they were before being raised another 1/2". So I am 3" above the upper rail, with the MBUS at 2 1/2" I guess.
BTW, when I re-zeroed at this new height, the cool part was I just turned the IR laser on and co-witnessed it with the RDS reticle. Bam. So both are zeroed at 100m, which works for me. |
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Posted: 6/30/2017 9:14:09 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For you guys with a passive engagement setup, do you use a 1/2 riser under a lower 1/3 cowitness mount, or a full cowitness mount? |
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Posted: 6/30/2017 11:03:06 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You would want to start with a 1/3 mount since it is higher than a full cowitness, then add additional height via risers from there as necessary. I'm going to start with an additional 1/2" riser since Diz said it worked well for him. I am using Troy Offset Sights in conjunction with this methodology since standard upright irons are not usable with the elevated RDS. I had considered raising the standard irons in conjunction with the RDS. I never considered the elevated RDS to be a part of this thread. I considered this thread to be more of an introductory thread and I considered the riser system to be a more committed intermediate-level solution. If we are going to import this concept to this thread, should I further explore my background observations on why I like this system so much even though I have some misgivings about it? |
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Posted: 6/30/2017 12:23:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Yeah man go for it brother. Either here or we can resurrect the other thread.
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Posted: 6/30/2017 3:28:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...only because the higher risers are difficult to find. High quality 1/2" risers are easy to find. If you are constrained to an absolute cowitness RDS then you will need a 5/8" or 3/4" riser. Do not plan on loving this setup right away. Give it some time. I consider this adaptation to be a compromise and I have never really fully adjusted to it, whereas Diz seems to have fallen in love with it. I did not fully commit to this. I built an experimental top end so I can just revert to my old rig if I desire. I am using Troy Offset Sights in conjunction with this methodology since standard upright irons are not usable with the elevated RDS. I had considered raising the standard irons in conjunction with the RDS. I never considered the elevated RDS to be a part of this thread. I considered this thread to be more of an introductory thread and I considered the riser system to be a more committed intermediate-level solution. If we are going to import this concept to this thread, should I further explore my background observations on why I like this system so much even though I have some misgivings about it? |
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Posted: 7/1/2017 9:33:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For you guys with a passive engagement setup, do you use a 1/2 riser under a lower 1/3 cowitness mount, or a full cowitness mount? Here's some shots of FOV also. ADM lower 1/3rd mount. Hope this  Attached Filehelps.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 7/1/2017 9:35:52 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 7/2/2017 2:00:26 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here it is again on a 300BO bulld. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/361596/20170604-192435-243580.JPG |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 7:26:24 PM EDT
[#11]
What 1/2" riser are you guys trusting to hold zero for the RDS? Seeing some pretty cheap ones out there
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Posted: 7/3/2017 8:28:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What 1/2" riser are you guys trusting to hold zero for the RDS? Seeing some pretty cheap ones out there |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 8:33:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Side question for zeroing an IR laser by using the USGI mount to put a PVS14 behind your zeroed RDS and cowitnessing the IR laser with the red dot:
If you bump the RDS up a half inch, what do you do about the 14 mounted behind it for zeroing? I tried this out, and managed to zero pretty effectively, but for some reason I was seeing the IR laser through the monocular as two dots very close together rather than one. I assume this had something to do with the monocular being roughly half an inch lower than the RDS while zeroing, but I have no idea what. Is this a non-issue? I also noticed that my view through the monocular was very blurry/smudged in the center of the field of view sitting behind the optic - which made it hard to aim at a target for zeroing ~100 yards. I assume this is again due to the mismatch of height of the monocular behind the raised RDS which hurt light transmission more than usual. Any thoughts from the experts on the above? |
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Posted: 7/6/2017 11:02:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What 1/2" riser are you guys trusting to hold zero for the RDS? Seeing some pretty cheap ones out there |
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Posted: 7/6/2017 4:30:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Side question for zeroing an IR laser by using the USGI mount to put a PVS14 behind your zeroed RDS and cowitnessing the IR laser with the red dot: If you bump the RDS up a half inch, what do you do about the 14 mounted behind it for zeroing? I tried this out, and managed to zero pretty effectively, but for some reason I was seeing the IR laser through the monocular as two dots very close together rather than one. I assume this had something to do with the monocular being roughly half an inch lower than the RDS while zeroing, but I have no idea what. Is this a non-issue? I also noticed that my view through the monocular was very blurry/smudged in the center of the field of view sitting behind the optic - which made it hard to aim at a target for zeroing ~100 yards. I assume this is again due to the mismatch of height of the monocular behind the raised RDS which hurt light transmission more than usual. Any thoughts from the experts on the above? ~Augee |
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Posted: 7/6/2017 4:37:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What 1/2" riser are you guys trusting to hold zero for the RDS? Seeing some pretty cheap ones out there LaRue LT101 5/8" riser is also a frequently used. ARMS has various models, and lots of manufacturers have made them in the past--if you basically go with a "trusted brand" for the riser same as you would for any optic mount, you should generally be fine. As usual, there are a lot of offerings out there from your NcStars and such for $5 or so on eBay and Gunbroker or at the local fudd store. Some of them are decent enough for "proof of concept" work, but I would stick to known quantities for long term use. The Wilcox Industries riser kits are the Cadillacs of the riser world, but they're expensive, and only come as a kit with the Wilcox flip mount and are only really configured for short EOTechs, though you can use most single-recoil lug mounts on them as well. You also can only use the KAC Micro rear sight if you choose to use one as well. That being said--if you are using a compatible configuration, they're great, great pieces of kit, and are available in both .410" and 5/8" heights and come with matching front sight risers as well. If you use an RDS with a magnifier in the day, you can QD the magnifier easily from the flip mount to give you room for NVDs. ~Augee |
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Posted: 7/6/2017 4:55:29 PM EDT
[#17]
I'm think of going to a 1.93" mount for this setup, since the DBAL eats the lower 1/3 of the scope.
Is that a good plan? 
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Posted: 7/7/2017 1:19:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm think of going to a 1.93" mount for this setup, since the DBAL eats the lower 1/3 of the scope. Is that a good plan? https://image.ibb.co/i2fbHv/IMG_1206.jpg Nice stick. 
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Posted: 7/7/2017 1:58:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can be our guinea penquin. Nice stick. Thanks! 
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Posted: 7/19/2017 9:25:26 AM EDT
[#20]
Resurrecting this with a new question that I had the other day while in the gun store, but not deserving of its own thread because I think there's a simple answer I'm just not thinking about:
So I'm in the gun shop the other day and they have a nice P320 with one of the Sig reflex sights on it factory installed. With my PVS-14 set up, I'm using the Butler Creek flip cap mod discussed in this thread to improve focus up close which allows me to shoot pretty well with my tritium night sights without having to adjust focus. Sure, the sights are blurry a little bit still, but I've proven I can shoot with them effectively. Given that, what benefit would a red dot on a pistol give me? Would the red dot be less blurry than the night sights in my field of view? I realize there would be no lining up sights so in theory I maybe could shoot faster. What is the general reason people get dots on their pistols specifically for shooting under NVGs? |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 9:53:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can be our guinea penquin. Nice stick. The old standard mount had probably 1/3 of the scope view obscured.  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 10:45:03 AM EDT
[#22]
In regards the riser conversation. I posted a thread in the optics forum and got some stellar replies. I got a yankee hill 1/2" riser. It was like $25 off amazon. I experimented with a T2 and eotech exps 3-2. with the riser it was amazing how easy it was to get into the optic (even the micro) with head mounted 14s. Not to mention without. Definitely a fan of that setup.
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Posted: 7/19/2017 11:47:26 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In regards the riser conversation. I posted a thread in the optics forum and got some stellar replies. I got a yankee hill 1/2" riser. It was like $25 off amazon. I experimented with a T2 and eotech exps 3-2. with the riser it was amazing how easy it was to get into the optic (even the micro) with head mounted 14s. Not to mention without. Definitely a fan of that setup. |
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Posted: 7/19/2017 11:48:44 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm think of going to a 1.93" mount for this setup, since the DBAL eats the lower 1/3 of the scope. Is that a good plan? https://image.ibb.co/i2fbHv/IMG_1206.jpg
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Posted: 7/19/2017 11:53:09 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn I want that fde d2. Don't suppose you want to try for a black d2
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Posted: 7/19/2017 12:18:19 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 7/20/2017 4:37:05 PM EDT
[#27]
On the risers, I used middle of the road pricing, with a 50 dollar upper riser for the RDS and rear MBUS, and a 15 buck Front MBUS riser. I train on a regular basis with this rifle and I see no issues with these parts. I would call my training a "regular" schedule. If you actually have an "extreme schedule", such as jump/scuba insertions and what-not, then sure maybe you would need the high-end parts. Up to you.
On the pistol use with NV, there are those that prefer tritium sights because they bloom under NV and are therefor easier to see. That's one way to do it. A micro RDS is going to be much similar to a rifle mounted RDS, except the plain is much lower (especially after going with 1/2" extra riser on rifle), so it takes a bit more time and reps to get lined up. That's a good way to go. Ideally you would get a pistol mounted IR laser (and maybe illum) as well, so you have the same techniques available to both rifle and pistol. On a practical note, my assumption is, in most cases, when I'm switching to pistol under NV it's really close quarters, so lining up sights might not be that much of an issue. Not that I wouldn't train for any likely scenario, including longer ranges where sights are required, but in my case my rifle would probably be my primary weapon under NV. I have one pistol with tritium sights for use with NV, and another with a MRDS for use as a primary weapon for every day carry. But this is probably stuff for another thread. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 9:23:02 AM EDT
[#28]
This is a great read for a new user like me.
Thank you guys for the tips on the Tiffen 30 uvp and drilling out the butler creek 07 cap. I drilled my cap to 5mm to start and love the ability to close it quickly to look at the ground around my feet. I don't think I would have ever thought of that and its amazing how well it works. I can't wait to try it out on my 300 too.  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 10:49:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a great read for a new user like me. Thank you guys for the tips on the Tiffen 30 uvp and drilling out the butler creek 07 cap. I drilled my cap to 5mm to start and love the ability to close it quickly to look at the ground around my feet. I don't think I would have ever thought of that and its amazing how well it works. I can't wait to try it out on my 300 too. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/195843/300-nv-264855.JPG Welcome! |
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Posted: 7/29/2017 11:36:01 AM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 7/29/2017 3:57:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Not sure if there's 2/3 different conversations going on at the same time, but are you guys putting these risers on your rifles to simply get a co witness, line your weapon mounted PVS up and/or clear the obstruction your rail mounted IR laser is creating, or are you trying to be able to wear your monocle over your right eye and utilize your weaponsight/RDS with it?
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Posted: 7/29/2017 8:01:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if there's 2/3 different conversations going on at the same time, but are you guys putting these risers on your rifles to simply get a co witness, line your weapon mounted PVS up and/or clear the obstruction your rail mounted IR laser is creating, or are you trying to be able to wear your monocle over your right eye and utilize your weaponsight/RDS with it? |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 7:29:08 AM EDT
[#33]
Originally the discussion was about raising up the RDS so you could use the reticle for passive NV work. But for me, I discovered that I liked the new height across the board. So I put a Hahn Engineering full-length riser underneath the RDS and rear MBUS, and a Burris 3-slot under the front MBUS. So this does several things. First of all, I just like the new height for shooting, period. It lines up your eye and sight better. And allows more room for a helmet and comms. The back up sights are still 1/3 co-witness. The LAM is now out of the FOV. And finally, the MNVD can be swung over to the right side and used in conjunction with the RDS. So the original idea was a way of using NV passive, but it does a host of other things for me now as well.
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Posted: 8/2/2017 8:34:43 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FYI - The 1.93" clears the DBAL-D2 completely. The old standard mount had probably 1/3 of the scope view obscured. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/221816/IMG-1260-257786.JPG |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 10:03:04 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to side track this great thread, but what optic is that? And is it NV compatible? http://www.primaryarms.com/pa1-6x24sfp-acss-5-56 |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 5:09:58 PM EDT
[#36]
I hope it's ok to post a link to SH (since it's not TOS). This seems like a really cool idea.
I'm intrigued by the idea of a combo close-focus cap and daylight filter. Does anybody know what this IR pass-through film he's talking about it? https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/sniper%C2%92s-hide%C2%AE-armory-supply/sniper-s-hide-night-vision-devices/223267-cap-retention?p=3556217#post3556217 I use the BC's as well. They work great. I drill a 3/8" hole in the left one, so to focus on something close, like your gear, a door that needs manipulated, or some other close item, you just flip it down. If you still need protection against light, since you don't have a pinhole cover, just glue a piece of IR passthrough film on the inside of the cap and you have a $15 item that does the same thing these $100-200 items do. It's not as sexy to show off on the internet, but I'm a pretty low speed guy, and it has worked fine for the military for quite a few years.
A lot of inexpensive home improvements can be done on the 14's, and a BC definitely is one of those! You also don't have a cap dangling in your face (sure, Velcro can fix that). I always get my baseline focus before I put the cap on when using any kind of flip up, so that the cap is oriented the way I want it to. If you already have the crimpers, let me know and I'll clip you a length of wire and throw it in an envelope with some crimps so you don't have to buy a whole roll and a bag of crimps. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 12:16:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Check pages 4 & 5 of this thread. The modified BC cap is also good for "shutting down the iris" when you enter higher light areas, allowing you keep IR on so you can still use laser pointer/illum.
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Posted: 8/4/2017 2:00:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anybody know what this IR pass-through film he's talking about it? It looks like if can find an old floppy disk you can use it to create one.  Attached FileI just happen to have a bin of them at my desk so I chopped one up and put it in front of my iPhone camera. I used the forward facing side as the rear has an IR reducing filter. I know this as it will not see the glow from remotes and the (selfie cam) side does. I am going to add a chunk inside my Butler Creek cap tonight and see how it does. Crappy iPhone 5 selfie cam pic to test viability.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 8:36:47 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to side track this great thread, but what optic is that? And is it NV compatible? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
FYI - The 1.93" clears the DBAL-D2 completely. The old standard mount had probably 1/3 of the scope view obscured. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/221816/IMG-1260-257786.JPG |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 8:47:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm intrigued by the idea of a combo close-focus cap and daylight filter. Does anybody know what this IR pass-through film he's talking about it? The aperture chokes the incoming light. When I open the cap, the IR filter still keeps the tube from getting over saturated. This, of course, is not for Deep Dark conditions - as you are severely reducing overall light gain. This is an example of different tools being used for different jobs. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 12:53:31 AM EDT
[#41]
I always remove batteries and cover both lenses with solid lens covers not daylight covers
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Posted: 8/8/2017 7:24:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am not 100% but my online search brought me to home made IR filters. It looks like if can find an old floppy disk you can use it to create one. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/195843/1832floppy-disc-271451.JPG I just happen to have a bin of them at my desk so I chopped one up and put it in front of my iPhone camera. I used the forward facing side as the rear has an IR reducing filter. I know this as it will not see the glow from remotes and the (selfie cam) side does. I am going to add a chunk inside my Butler Creek cap tonight and see how it does. Crappy iPhone 5 selfie cam pic to test viability. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/195843/IMG_7210-271460.JPG |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 9:48:48 AM EDT
[#43]
After a little testing the floppy disk does work as a light blocker. I added a piece inside my butler creek cap and it drastically reduced the light going into the monocular.
With the cap closed and a 5mm aperture the disk material greatly reduced the ability to see in low light conditions. Using the onboard IR was marginally better but still very dark. When I turned my torch on in a very confined area it went back to normal brightness when typically it would be too bright. My PVS is not gated so I was very careful in my testing. As SOT said I do believe this might be useful in a mixed light area but it the deep dark it's useless. I do not know if this will harm the tube so try at your own risk.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 8:03:00 AM EDT
[#44]
Not bad. Maybe make it removable by cutting it so it snaps in and out. Would also act as a full dust cover in areas where that might be an issue.
Are floppies still generally available or would you have to hit a secondary market? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 8:12:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not bad. Maybe make it removable by cutting it so it snaps in and out. Would also act as a full dust cover in areas where that might be an issue. Are floppies still generally available or would you have to hit a secondary market? |
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Posted: 8/10/2017 7:45:54 AM EDT
[#46]
Right on dude, we can trade out on some stuff.
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Posted: 8/10/2017 11:20:24 AM EDT
[#47]
Just a heads up the floppy is just slightly smaller than the lens. It looks exaggerated in my picture but it's a mm or 2 short.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 8/10/2017 2:28:10 PM EDT
[#48]
My cube mate at work handed me a half dozen.
And I ordered the butler creek cap yesterday. So I should have this tested tomorrow. |
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Posted: 8/10/2017 2:35:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My cube mate at work handed me a half dozen. And I ordered the butler creek cap yesterday. So I should have this tested tomorrow. |
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Posted: 8/11/2017 9:37:56 AM EDT
[#50]
Yeah good point. BUT this would be an excellent field expedient.
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