Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page / 7
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 7:38:09 AM EDT
[#1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
SOT_Solutions, since it was recently mentioned, could you do a post on the topic of NVD lens protection and add-on filters? For example: sacrificial lenses, LIF filters, demist shields, IR filters, amber filters, etc...?
View Quote


Waiting on next installment !

Link Posted: 3/26/2017 12:22:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Waiting on next installment !

View Quote
I was waiting on TechOps to redirect some questions here about MNVD handling and bright light exposure but he never came back here.

If you have any questions pertinent to this thread, I am happy to address them.
Link Posted: 3/27/2017 10:17:03 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was waiting on TechOps to redirect some questions here about MNVD handling and bright light exposure but he never came back here.

If you have any questions pertinent to this thread, I am happy to address them.
View Quote
I've been life busy here lately.
I check the thread almost every day and have linked it outside this sub-forum.

It remains as a guide for new guys like me to fall back on.
I read most of it before actually getting my 14, so it's more useful now than previously for me personally as I explore and learn.
Link Posted: 3/27/2017 10:21:23 AM EDT
[#4]
One big DO:

Do take your unit to family parties and let everyone use it.
My brother and his boy ran off in the woods for like 1.5 hours--when they came back they had a grin from ear to ear.

Even my great aunt used it to stare at stars for about 20 mins.
It does kind of suck you can only use it for 1/2 the day though 
Link Posted: 3/27/2017 10:26:14 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One big DO:

Do take your unit to family parties and let everyone use it.
My brother and his boy ran off in the woods for like 1.5 hours--when they came back they had a grin from ear to ear.

Even my great aunt used it to stare at stars for about 20 mins.
It does kind of suck you can only use it for 1/2 the day though 
View Quote
Not even .5 a day if you want some sleep.

Hmmmm I have been awfully tired the last two months.....
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 2:01:57 PM EDT
[#6]
I've now realized I want to shoot this particular work rifle both during the day and at night.
My initial setup was mostly focused on night depredation.

My initial setup was MRO + DBAL mounted at 12o'clock on end of rail with helmet PVS14.
I've now moved to NF 5-20x56mm + DBAL mounted at 12o'clock on end of rail.

I need to be able to reach out (humanely) beyond 300yards both during the day and at night.
I want to continue to use my 14 helmet mounted, but I'm thinking I'll need to mount it in front of the NF for anything out beyond 200yards.
I really don't want to carry another upper or rifle with me at all times.

Mounting it on my rifle limits functional use for me greatly.
Thoughts?
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 2:27:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've now realized I want to shoot this particular work rifle both during the day and at night.
My initial setup was mostly focused on night depredation.

My initial setup was MRO + DBAL mounted at 12o'clock on end of rail with helmet PVS14.
I've now moved to NF 5-20x56mm + DBAL mounted at 12o'clock on end of rail.

I need to be able to reach out (humanely) beyond 300yards both during the day and at night.
I want to continue to use my 14 helmet mounted, but I'm thinking I'll need to mount it in front of the NF for anything out beyond 200yards.
I really don't want to carry another upper or rifle with me at all times.

Mounting it on my rifle limits functional use for me greatly.
Thoughts?
View Quote
The bottom just dropped out of the bag of worms you were holding and dropped all the worms in the can of beans you just opened.

The MNVD in front of the 5-20x56mm is probably not viable even if you use a Black Optex Zero.

I would try a mil-spec magnifier on the helmet mounted MNVD for static position shooting ICW the DBAL. You can remove the magnifier to navigate.

I think you are going to find the limitations of your system very quickly. Trying to make the PVS-14 do everything is hard work.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 3:57:58 PM EDT
[#8]
PVS-14 are not meant to be mounted in front of or behind magnified optics due to not being collimated.

As said, use a magnifier for the head mounted 14 to reach out with your laser.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 8:36:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
SOT_Solutions, since it was recently mentioned, could you do a post on the topic of NVD lens protection and add-on filters? For example: sacrificial lenses, LIF filters, demist shields, IR filters, amber filters, etc...?
View Quote
Came here to ask the same. Saw a post from SOT on sniperhide from 2014 but the links were dead to the 30mm IR pass through filter he uses and was hoping for some more info as well. Incredible thread right now too
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 10:27:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Came here to ask the same. Saw a post from SOT on sniperhide from 2014 but the links were dead to the 30mm IR pass through filter he uses and was hoping for some more info as well. Incredible thread right now too
View Quote
I'll start that tomorrow. I am not the same person as the person on Sniperhide.
Link Posted: 3/29/2017 9:20:31 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've now realized I want to shoot this particular work rifle both during the day and at night.
My initial setup was mostly focused on night depredation.

My initial setup was MRO + DBAL mounted at 12o'clock on end of rail with helmet PVS14.
I've now moved to NF 5-20x56mm + DBAL mounted at 12o'clock on end of rail.

I need to be able to reach out (humanely) beyond 300yards both during the day and at night.
I want to continue to use my 14 helmet mounted, but I'm thinking I'll need to mount it in front of the NF for anything out beyond 200yards.
I really don't want to carry another upper or rifle with me at all times.

Mounting it on my rifle limits functional use for me greatly.
Thoughts?
View Quote
Laser is fine for night work if you're talking minute of man. What you want is a PVS-22, PVS-26, Armasight CO-X, or TNVC's WASP. Those are purpose-built devices to mount in front of a day optic.

There's another recent thread where everyone is helping a guy build a night rifle.

You'll want a can to reduce muzzle flash as much as possible too. Nothing sucks more than totally losing all of your natural night vision because you fired, and now you can't see what you were shooting at originally.
Link Posted: 3/30/2017 4:49:04 AM EDT
[#12]
I've actually shot maybe 16 times now under nods and using a Surefire Warden it does not seem to cause issues with flash.
Ideally, I'd have a can--but my state is shit.

In re-evaluation I believe I'll just setup (2) rifles for the appropriate tasks.
It will force me to carry them both at all times, but should work out in the long run.
Link Posted: 3/31/2017 6:18:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Came here to ask the same. Saw a post from SOT on sniperhide from 2014 but the links were dead to the 30mm IR pass through filter he uses and was hoping for some more info as well. Incredible thread right now too
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
SOT_Solutions, since it was recently mentioned, could you do a post on the topic of NVD lens protection and add-on filters? For example: sacrificial lenses, LIF filters, demist shields, IR filters, amber filters, etc...?
Came here to ask the same. Saw a post from SOT on sniperhide from 2014 but the links were dead to the 30mm IR pass through filter he uses and was hoping for some more info as well. Incredible thread right now too
Yeah, I'm a little late. I've been thinking this over a little. What I've reduced as an addressable concept is "Non-magnified Lenses and Accessories for Both Objective and Ocular Ends of the MNVD". This is the direction you guys want to go, right?

Let's make a list before I dive into it:

Input

1) Daylight Filter / Aperture / Lens Cap
2) Sacrificial Window / UV Haze Filter
3) Neutral Density Filter
4) IR Pass Filters
5) Band Block Filters (I'm specifically not discussing the operating characteristics of the LIF because I am not certain what is supposed to be public knowledge regarding this controlled device. David had a link to public information on the LIF. Maybe he can drop that here.)

Output

6) Demist Shield
7) Amber Filter
8) Other Colored Output Filters.

Feel free to add whatever you want to the pile and we'll discuss it.

Edited: to correct numbering error.
Link Posted: 3/31/2017 6:46:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've actually shot maybe 16 times now under nods and using a Surefire Warden it does not seem to cause issues with flash.
Ideally, I'd have a can--but my state is shit.

In re-evaluation I believe I'll just setup (2) rifles for the appropriate tasks.
It will force me to carry them both at all times, but should work out in the long run.
View Quote
Carrying two rifles would be the suck. Even if they used the same mags and ammo.

Wait are we talking "carry" carry or haul around in a RZR or something?
Link Posted: 3/31/2017 10:11:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
3d filters are already available from adams industries , maybe SOT could add them to the list

Link Posted: 3/31/2017 11:35:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yeah, I'm a little late. I've been thinking this over a little. What I've reduced as an addressable concept is "Non-magnified Lenses and Accessories for Both Objective and Ocular Ends of the MNVD". This is the direction you guys want to go, right?

Let's make a list before I dive into it:

Input

1) Daylight Filter / Aperture / Lens Cap
2) Sacrificial Window / UV Haze Filter
3) Neutral Density Filter
3) IR Pass Filters
4) Band Block Filters (I'm specifically not discussing the operating characteristics of the LIF because I am not certain what is supposed to be public knowledge regarding this controlled device. David had a link to public information on the LIF. Maybe he can drop that here.)

Output

5) Demist Shield
6) Amber Filter
7) Other Colored Output Filters.

Feel free to add whatever you want to the pile and we'll discuss it.
View Quote
That list is already way more than I know so I don't have any more to add but am very interested in all of those topics
Link Posted: 4/1/2017 10:28:54 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Carrying two rifles would be the suck. Even if they used the same mags and ammo.

Wait are we talking "carry" carry or haul around in a RZR or something?
View Quote
Inside work truck.
Link Posted: 4/2/2017 2:50:44 PM EDT
[#18]
SOT, that list is perfect. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
Link Posted: 4/3/2017 9:40:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Wow, this is the best source of info on this stuff I've ever seen.  Thanks to SOT, Augee and others for sharing.  

One thing I would re-iterate is Augee's comment about eye relief or stand-off adjustment.  I've been training with -14's for about 10 years, just as an armed citizen.  I practice woodland patrolling, for possible security operations (versus hunting).  I have found that I like to set up the ocular with a little stand-off from my eye.  I use a Wilcox IR filter, which does a couple of things.  Yes, you can just roll back the eye cup and accomplish 80-90% of the same thing, but the Wilcox will reduce back-splash or "raccoon" eye, if that is a concern for you.  And it has a nice rubber bumper, which will rest against your safety glasses, taking some of the weight.  I like wearing safety glasses, whenever possible, especially if doing live fire.  This set up will also work well for those of you that need corrective glasses.  And finally, the Wilcox gives the image a slightly more yellow hue, which I think adds to the contrast, giving you a sharper image.

With the unit off-set away from your eye a bit, besides the above, you will find, as Augee mentioned, that you now have significantly more situational awareness.  Instead of a blind side, with the left eye enclosed in an eye cup, you now have good 180 deg + vision of your surroundings.  You can now see up-close, on your NV side, as you navigate through the bush.  Your peripheral vison is back!  Instead of bumping into trees n shit, you can now easily move around all that crap.

This is significantly easier to pull off with the newer Rhino II mount.

For those of you that don't need ballistic pro, or even if you do, but the situation is such that you can probably get by without it, try the Crye "night cap".  It works fairly well (although I have modified mine extensively) to give you an alternative to a bump or ballistic helmet.  For extended patrolling in really hot, humid weather, or extended time in the prone position, where the helmet will not allow you prone out.  I wear a counter weight in back, just like a helmet, for better balance.  Between that, and resting the Wilcox filter on my safety glasses, the weight is more evenly distributed.  Just make sure you have a good glasses that curve around and snug up to your face well.  This does put pressure on the bridge of you nose, but you gotta pick where you want the discomfort!  Having that extra point of contact relieves a lot of neck strain for me.  YMMV.

If the gain is kept way down, reducing the contrast between aided and un-aided eye, your brain will meld the two images into one.  As SOT stated it does take practice but it can be done.  

Lanyards are essential.  I just use para cord with those little "S" hooks.  Usually hooked up to helmet or night cap, but have been experimenting with a neck lanyard as well.

I use bungees.  I like the solid feel it gives the system when using a helmet.  

I always use a sacrificial lens in front when patrolling.  Too easy to screw up your front lens if unprotected.  

Lithium AA's rock.

I use a simple OTAL IR laser.  With a SF Scout w/vampire head.  SF dual switch.  The OTAL is at 12 o'clock, the light at 3, and the switch at 9.  As Augee pointed out, it ain't perfect, but it works.  I practice by using IR illum for positive Target ID, then going to IR laser to prosecute.  This works fairly well in a woodland environment, with enough illum to shoot the target.  For more urban CQB type stuff, I might switch up to a clicky cap on the surefire, now mounted at 9 o'clock, for positive on illum,  with the Laser tape switch mounted right behind it.  That way I can switch illum on, then hit momentary for the laser, without getting all dis-combobulated.  One of these days I will get a nice LAM with internal laser illum.

Again, awesome thread gents.
Link Posted: 4/4/2017 7:30:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Since you mentioned safety glasses, what is the group opinion on laser safety lenses, like the Oakley laser green ones?

I may be training around some folks with full burn lasers later this year and I don't know their skill level.
Link Posted: 4/5/2017 9:12:31 AM EDT
[#21]
My opinion would be why not?  My background is basically jungle ops and heavily wooded terrain.  I was trained by Vietnam vets, old school.  I used to think wearing safety glasses was pussy, if not tactically questionable.  I have revised that opinion over the years.  First of all just wearing safety glasses makes a lot of sense.  You are out in the bush, at night, and the chance of poking yourself in the eyes with brush is very real.  Then you add in live fire training.  I think having eye pro here whenever possible goes without saying.  Then you have lasers.  Getting a laser flash by a full power laser is no joke.  For you, or your optic.  A filter for both would seem to be a good idea.  

Yes, they can get fogged up in humid weather.  You have to be meticulous about keeping the lenses clean.  Your pre-combat checks should include this.  And yes, in certain situations the glint could be a liability.  A hood or ghillie cloak might be used much the same as a shroud on your scope.

Of course much would depend on your estimate of the situation: enemy capabilities, likely courses of actions, chance of contact, etc.  But for training, I'd say sure, why not.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 9:45:46 AM EDT
[#22]
I've been out the last few nights and have noticed something.
I'm forced to drive to certain locations with a LED beacon on. I've been practicing driving under NVG and have it down fairly well now.

I've noticed the LED beacon glints the eyes really well, but obviously it's not very stealthy.
The flashing portion makes eye reflections very noticeable. Things like deer, coons, skunks, ect..pop out of the treeline very clearly.

Do you guys use some form of flashing IR?
I'm going to research LED IR beacons, as I think that could be a very valuable tool.
Thoughts?

Additionally, last night was light rain and overcast. 
I will have to say that initially I was concerned about having no Thermal, but that WP contrast makes everything almost white and animals almost black.
Very similar to the high black/high white on thermal. I'm very impressed with the WP unit and glad I paid the extra.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:15:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Since you mentioned safety glasses, what is the group opinion on laser safety lenses, like the Oakley laser green ones?

I may be training around some folks with full burn lasers later this year and I don't know their skill level.
View Quote
Laser lenses are band specific and only work if you are using lenses that are tuned to the frequency of the laser in use. Make sure you get the right lenses.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:09:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Installment Seventeen: Input / Output Lenses

Input

1) Daylight Filter / Aperture / Lens Cap
2) Sacrificial Window / UV Haze Filter
3) Neutral Density Filter
4) IR Pass Filters
5) Band Block Filters (I'm specifically not discussing the operating characteristics of the LIF because I am not certain what is supposed to be public knowledge regarding this controlled device. David had a link to public information on the LIF. Maybe he can drop that here.)

Output

6) Demist Shield
7) Amber Filter
8) Other Colored Output Filters.

Items one through six are all so inexpensive and easy to obtain that you are robbing yourself if you don't get one of each for experimental purposes to either study the limitations of your MNVD or augment its capabilities. I rank them with the operators manual - if you don't have them then get them. If at first you do not find value in them, you will as time progresses. I will try to address one item per day and edit into this original post for codification.

Daylight Filter / Aperture / Lens Cap

The factory lens cap utilizes an aperture that is small enough to act as a "Daylight Filter". The amount of photons able to pass through the aperture is limited enough to allow limited use of the MNVD during daylight hours for rudimentary function checks. Resolution will not be optimum while using the aperture so a detailed inspection of MNVD performance is not possible. Extensive use of the cap as a Daylight Filter can cause temporary or, in severe circumstances, permanent tube damage so keep use to a minimum. The "Pinhole Effect" of the aperture increases depth perception so an MNVD set to Infinity Focus can also see relatively clearly in close quarters, though overall resolution will tend to be diminished. Experience will clarify this juxtaposition for you. Johnelot has indicated that this forced change in the focus of the system can allow for differentiating between MCP tube blemishes and particle contamination inside of the MNVD housing or in the lens train.

You can get a lot of adjustability, and commensurate effect, out of a commercial aperture such as the Tarsier Eclipse but you can get a very useful general purpose aperture by centering a 7mm hole in a Butler Creek flip cover (PN 30070).

I first became aware of the use of apertures used in conjunction with NVD's when I read a study on the feasibility of using the AN/PVS-14 for pilotage that was conducted by the US Army. IIRC their main concern was limiting the amount of photons entering the system so they could make use of the MNVD during twilight hours when the pilots were generally able to fly unaided but wanted the advantage of augmenting their vision with the MNVD's. They achieved this by drilling a 4mm aperture hole in a COTS flip-open scope lens cover. When the twilight waned, the pilots simply flipped the lens cover open - fully exposing the objective lens. A byproduct of the experiment was increased DOF due to forcing the light entering the lens through the aperture. This is a commonly observed phenomenon and general information can be found on this topic all over the web.

No information was presented in the evaluation as to why the 4mm aperture size was chosen so I chose to experiment. I began by having discs cut with varying apertures, but of a standard outside diameter so they could be mounted in a filter lens frame. I chose standard photography F-Stop sizes to keep the experiment anchored a little. I swapped the apertures until I found the largest opening that increased the DOF enough that I could get marginal focus on Tritium pistol sights at arms-length while simultaneously having a practical long distance focus (7mm). This limits the amount of photons available to the PC so gain has to be increased considerably (increasing noise) to achieve a usable image. There is no free lunch, but this aperture can be used in a high ambient light night environment. Out in the deep dark, this aperture would be completely unusable.

The relatively small (7mm) size of the aperture in the Butler Creek cover prevents damage to the objective lens while deployed and serves as a replacement (in most circumstances) of the factory lens cap.

Sacrificial Window / UV Haze Filter

The factory Sacrificial Window is excellent objective lens protection while the MNVD is in use. It is easily installed in the dark when needed and is easily removable. It does however add extra bulk to the objective lens and cannot be used in tandem with the lens cap. In may applications I recommend a 30mm threaded UV Haze filter from the photography realm. They typically cost less than $10. They are built into a threaded aluminum frame and have a smaller outside diameter than the objective lens housing so the factory lens cap or a Butler Creek 30070 can be placed over them. These were not chosen for protection against UV, which is virtually non-existant in most night time conditions, but because they block the least amount of light of any of the readily available filters. The UV they block is irrelevant to us. I consider them clear.

Because of their low profile, accessories such as the compass can be used with them without conflict - as can the LaRue weapon mount for the AN/PVS-14 (which rubs on the sacrificial window rubber frame). In many applications the UV filter can be left in place semi-permanently, even if 30mm threaded telephoto lenses are used because many UV filters have female threads for mounting additional lenses. Their low cost allows me to rub them clean with a grimy finger if they become soiled or fogged in the field without fear of damaging an expensive objective lens.

I commonly recommend the UV filter to be used behind the Butler Creek 30070. You lose the ability to readily attach telephoto lenses but it is a very streamlined system. The UV filter protects the objective lens at all times. The Butler Creek cover protects the UV filter when it is closed. The closed Butler Creek cover provides extended depth perception while in use - in extreme low light environments the cap can be simply flipped open and a separate piece need not be stowed.

Neutral Density Filter

ND Filters are typically available in values that halve the available light from the last previous filter. Examples:

No Filter: Full Value
ND2: 1/2
ND4: 1/4
ND8: 1/8
etc., etc. into values that are so dimming in nature that they are worthless to us. Multiple filters can be combined to provide fractional values to fill the gaps.

ND Filters are designed to diminish the amount of light that passes through them equally across the spectrum, as opposed to band-pass or band-block filters that select certain frequencies to modify. ND Filters can be used to limit the amount of photons entering a fixed gain tube to prevent oversaturation in a high light environment. They can also be used for experimentation purposes such as starving a tube of photons to see image quality degradation at higher gain without otherwise affecting the image as an aperture would (changing the depth of field). In my opinion, they do not provide much utility for the average end-user but are an inexpensive tool for those that like to experiment. Most end-users would probably be better served with an IR pass filter that blocks most visible light but still allows use of lasers and illumination tools without seriously degrading their performance.

Overall, the greatest utility I have found for ND filters is to be able to train under NV where deep darkness is not available even during night time hours.

IR Pass Filter

IR Pass Filters pass IR and block most of the rest of the light spectrum. They can be used to block excess light when working in a dynamically lit environment to prevent over-saturation. They still allow use of IR illumination tools and may even enhance use of IR illumination depending on conditions. They will not improve depth of field like an aperture will, however, so they are usually not my first choice in tools to prevent over-saturation. They do cause some overall loss of system gain, so plan on removing the IR Pass Filter if conditions darken. Typically the lens frame is compact and can be worn under a lens cap if desired. The front edge of the filter can typically be filed if the filter increases the overall length of the system too much.

Band Block Filter

If you have read carefully you will note that I have been speaking in general terms throughout this conversation. Band Block Filters get close to the "Capabilities and Limitations" realm of ITAR so I will only give general principles and you kids can figure the rest for yourselves.

If you use a Band Block Filter on the MNVD then you will lose gain in the part of the spectrum related to that band. If that part of the spectrum is crippled then you can use lighting within that spectrum segment to assist your unaided eye without washing the I2 image.

Due to ITAR considerations I will not answer questions on this topic. The military studies on feasibility of cockpit use of I2 indicate which filters work best for this.

Demist Shield

These snap into place on the Ocular Lens and provide some protection against fogging. They provide excellent, economical protection for the Ocular Lens. Do not touch them when they are wet, as you will damage the coatings. Use of the Demist Shield may cause some visual artifacts, especially when observing dark areas with bright point light sources. If this is a concern then using an anti-fog chemical instead of the Demist Shield can help prevent the artifacts. They are easily installed and removed so they can be used as a storage-only protective device and then removed for use. If you use neither the Rubber Eye Guard nor the Demist Shield then the Eye Guard Retaining Ring at the rear of the Ocular Lens is irrelevant and can be removed, allowing the MNVD to be mounted closer to the eye.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:30:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Very cool thanks for the info.  Have you found a way of attaching a lanyard to a sacrificial lens?  I'd like a way of switching out the lens cover and SL on the fly.  Right now I only have the lens cover on lanyard due to included hole, and run self-adhesive Velcro on the cover and the housing so I can stow it while it's on my grape.  It would be nice to be able to take the lens cap off, and throw on the SF, just using the same Velcro patch on the housing to store whichever cover is not in use.

Has anyone tried to maybe cut out a std lens cover and insert/epoxy a sacrificial lens in there?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:43:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Very cool thanks for the info.  Have you found a way of attaching a lanyard to a sacrificial lens?  I'd like a way of switching out the lens cover and SL on the fly.  Right now I only have the lens cover on lanyard due to included hole, and run self-adhesive Velcro on the cover and the housing so I can stow it while it's on my grape.  It would be nice to be able to take the lens cap off, and throw on the SF, just using the same Velcro patch on the housing to store whichever cover is not in use.

Has anyone tried to maybe cut out a std lens cover and insert/epoxy a sacrificial lens in there?
View Quote
Edit:

See above update.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 10:32:18 PM EDT
[#27]
@SOT are you saying a 30mm UV filter can be screwed onto the front of the MNVD?  Can you unpack a bit the concept of using both a sacrificial lens AND a flip-up pinhole cover?
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 6:16:25 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Laser lenses are band specific and only work if you are using lenses that are tuned to the frequency of the laser in use. Make sure you get the right lenses.
View Quote
I am looking at this: Oakley

I am assuming the Oakley SI ones are tuned to PEQ-15 frequencies since they were intended for military use.
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 10:50:30 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I am looking at this: Oakley

I am assuming the Oakley SI ones are tuned to PEQ-15 frequencies since they were intended for military use.
View Quote
Not to detract, but do you have any experience with prescription ballistic rated stuff?
Are those ballistic rated or just laser rated?
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 11:29:17 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I am looking at this: Oakley

I am assuming the Oakley SI ones are tuned to PEQ-15 frequencies since they were intended for military use.
View Quote
"The Military" is a big organization. They use a lot of different lasers for different purposes. Assuming that all military laser protective glasses protect against the wavelength of the PEQ-15 because the military uses the PEQ-15, while disregarding all of the other lasers that the military uses, is faulty logic. If you have a perceived ocular hazard then the protective device against that hazard needs to specifically state that it protects against that specific hazard or the assumption needs to be that there is no protection.
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 11:39:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not to detract, but do you have any experience with prescription ballistic rated stuff?
Are those ballistic rated or just laser rated?
View Quote
I have an inside track on information for prescription lenses. I can look into it. Bump me if I forget to respond. LPGs are rated for use in a laboratory setting - I assume they are Z87 rated in addition in addition to protecting against a specific band of laser. Like old Ronnie says, "Trust but verify." I'll check.

What style are we assuming for best view and protection in an LPG? Shall I assume full-tilt BCG?

We may consider a complete protective system of corrective lenses clipped behind turbo-fan goggles.
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 11:48:18 AM EDT
[#32]
Very cool.  The lens cover/ lens protector combo is an awesome idea.  Kinda a big DUH moment for me.  A clear filter with a Butler creek flip-off cover.  Kinda the night time equivalent of the ARD/flip-off cover combo for day light ops.  No need to store separate covers.  Score!

Also thanks for the tip on the "new" Rhino II mount.  This was a huge improvement for me on my particular helmet set-up.  Locks up much tighter, and drops the ocular down perfectly in front of my eye.
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 12:07:49 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Very cool.  The lens cover/ lens protector combo is an awesome idea.  Kinda a big DUH moment for me.  A clear filter with a Butler creek flip-off cover.  Kinda the night time equivalent of the ARD/flip-off cover combo for day light ops.  No need to store separate covers.  Score!

Also thanks for the tip on the "new" Rhino II mount.  This was a huge improvement for me on my particular helmet set-up.  Locks up much tighter, and drops the ocular down perfectly in front of my eye.  
View Quote
Do you have the new style J-Arm with the rectangular index pins or the old style with the ball and socket configuration?

With a new style J-Arm or a modified ball and socket arm, the lockup is almost as tight as a dovetail arm.
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 5:33:58 PM EDT
[#34]
I've got the new style square socket with the rectangular pins.  Yeah man I think the Rhino II is just as tight as the Gucci brands, except just a little slop in the top or flip up joint, before you hit the camming surface, which provides the tension.  I used to use bungees but now, dunno.  If I keep them I'll drill small holes towards the rear so they're not all stretched out n shit.  

BTW just ordered 30mm UV lens and a BC #07 flip-up for my front end.  The filters are all over ebay from 3-30 bucks, with the Butler Creek around a tenner.

Got my eye on that Petzl IR unit you mentioned as well.  Right now I'm running some Chinese copy of the P-T model, with white, green, and IR .  Works OK but I haven't really run it hard either; just recce patrols.  I'm afraid of the first hard rain it gets into.

I'm also running a simple Phoenix IR strobe on the top of my noodle.  You could also run the programmable model, with your call sign, SOS, etc. in Morse code.  For live fire training under NV, I think you need, at a minimum, an IR light on each guy's helmet, IR flag patch center mass on PC, IR flag patches on each side of the helmet, and IR call sign patches on each shoulder.  That way, you can see where your buddy is at a glance.  Also the instructors can keep track of everybody as well.  I run ranger eyes on my battery C/W pouch too, which also work well under NV.    

For hunters, dunno.  You need your own SOP, but I'd wear something if other guys were around.  Kinda like wearing orange in day time. Using it to glint animal eyes, I'd think a rifle-mounted IR light would be best for that.  My scout w/ Vampire head lights up all sorts of critters on patrol.  Sometimes they even follow you.  But good counter-tracking measures, like a button-hook every so often will usually throw them off.
Link Posted: 4/7/2017 6:46:49 PM EDT
[#35]
IR strobes will usually blast through fabric so they don't necessarily need to be exposed. They can oftentimes be stowed in a pouch.

IFF is good to prevent accidents. I keep extra Velcro spots inside my helmet and in my gear to park the IFF stuff when we are covert. Most live fire at the beginner level should be done with an instructor having his hand on the drag handle of the shooter's PC ready to check the shooter if he tries to break his lane of fire. Even experienced shooters suffer task loading at night and make big mistakes.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.
Link Posted: 4/8/2017 9:31:59 AM EDT
[#36]
Yeah that's no shit.  The first two live fire night shoots I did were straight up old school ranger assaults on an enemy "base camp".   We got on line and assaulted as two elements, doing a basic fire and maneuver movement.  The instructors were right behind us (good idea) and applied boot leather to ass when people got too far out.   One time I hit a pile of brush and got my -14 caught in it.  Looked like one of those old cartoon bears with their head stuck in a bee hive.  Finally got un-fucked and moved on.  Just a simple brush/wood pile you would have moved right through during daylight, but at night it's just enough to trip you up if you're trying to rush through it.  Afterwards, one of the instructors says oh yeah I meant to move that last week.  So I skated on that one.

With an IR light on everybody's grape, the instructors could see when someone was getting out too far in front, or out of their lane.  We could look right and left and tie in with our buddies with the glint patches both on helmets and shoulders.  So yeah, just a matter of keeping your head and doing your job.  And try not to get tangled up in the shit.  

Even on a real op, I would weight using them for control and safety reasons.  I would have to have a really good team to go without any IFF at all.  As always, terrain and situation.
Link Posted: 4/8/2017 11:10:49 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
"The Military" is a big organization. They use a lot of different lasers for different purposes. Assuming that all military laser protective glasses protect against the wavelength of the PEQ-15 because the military uses the PEQ-15, while disregarding all of the other lasers that the military uses, is faulty logic. If you have a perceived ocular hazard then the protective device against that hazard needs to specifically state that it protects against that specific hazard or the assumption needs to be that there is no protection.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
"The Military" is a big organization. They use a lot of different lasers for different purposes. Assuming that all military laser protective glasses protect against the wavelength of the PEQ-15 because the military uses the PEQ-15, while disregarding all of the other lasers that the military uses, is faulty logic. If you have a perceived ocular hazard then the protective device against that hazard needs to specifically state that it protects against that specific hazard or the assumption needs to be that there is no protection.
That's a very good point.

I spent a lot of time doing extensive googling and FINALLY I was able to find the specs for the Oakley Laser Toric lenses (for M-Frame and Ballistic Goggles).

LINK

Optical Density not less than 4.0 - wavelengths of 820nm to 850nm and the wavelength of 1064nm*. Visible light transmittance: 54% suitable for medium to low light conditions
Link Posted: 4/17/2017 5:34:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yeah that's no shit.  The first two live fire night shoots I did were straight up old school ranger assaults on an enemy "base camp".   We got on line and assaulted as two elements, doing a basic fire and maneuver movement.  The instructors were right behind us (good idea) and applied boot leather to ass when people got too far out.   One time I hit a pile of brush and got my -14 caught in it.  Looked like one of those old cartoon bears with their head stuck in a bee hive.  Finally got un-fucked and moved on.  Just a simple brush/wood pile you would have moved right through during daylight, but at night it's just enough to trip you up if you're trying to rush through it.  Afterwards, one of the instructors says oh yeah I meant to move that last week.  So I skated on that one.

With an IR light on everybody's grape, the instructors could see when someone was getting out too far in front, or out of their lane.  We could look right and left and tie in with our buddies with the glint patches both on helmets and shoulders.  So yeah, just a matter of keeping your head and doing your job.  And try not to get tangled up in the shit.  

Even on a real op, I would weight using them for control and safety reasons.  I would have to have a really good team to go without any IFF at all.  As always, terrain and situation.
View Quote
Depending on the level of light discipline required, you may be able to use a line-generator type laser for seeing tripwires and entangling obstructions. Yes, it generates a signature (IR light) but so does imitating Winnie the Poo (audible sound).

The biggest myth is that donning NVG's makes you an instant phantom. The typical night-time environment is quieter than its corollary daytime counterpart, making your stomping all the more apparent - and all the more difficult to avoid. If you can't move through an area quietly during the day then expect it to be at least twice as bad at night. I have face-planted, stepped into holes, walked off of dropoffs and fully committed to punching through thicket that proved impenetrable. The trick is to not be embarrassed by it but to learn from it. Real night navigation is hard. In the movies they have crews go over the set to make sure the actors don't accidentally step on a pebble and trip.

Speaking of movies - do not watch movies and expect to learn anything about I2. Most NV scenes are shot in the daylight and have green added as an effect to make it look like an I2 environment. If you see no halos or tracers or whatnot, then the scene was not even shot under I2.
Link Posted: 4/17/2017 5:45:38 PM EDT
[#39]
A Sidenote on Safety Glasses

Yes, the old man died in the Powers' Cabin Shootout, but otherwise the Powers brothers handily won the day. Legend has it that the reason they passively surrendered afterwards was because of eye injuries from spall during the shootout. Those boys were hard asses and a few splinters took them out. Even if you think you measure up to the Powers brothers, protect your damned eyes. If you can't see then you can't fight. If you don't have an Eye Particle Remover in your med kit then at least have cotton swabs, an eye loupe, tweezers and a chrome plated magnet.
Link Posted: 4/17/2017 6:11:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
SOT are you saying a 30mm UV filter can be screwed onto the front of the MNVD?  Can you unpack a bit the concept of using both a sacrificial lens AND a flip-up pinhole cover?
View Quote
@35Remington:
Did I cover this well enough or are you still waiting on an answer?

The "Sacrificial Window" that I prefer is a Tiffen 30UVP because it will fit under the Butler Creek cover. I do not typically use a standard USGI Sacrificial Window.
Link Posted: 4/17/2017 6:43:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
@35Remington:
Did I cover this well enough or are you still waiting on an answer?

The "Sacrificial Window" that I prefer is a Tiffen 30UVP because it will fit under the Butler Creek cover. I do not typically use a standard USGI Sacrificial Window.
View Quote
Thanks for circling back around.  Yes I still need answers.

Does the MNVD objective side have female screw threads that accept the 30UVP?

I have had a hell of a time with the Butler Creek 09A.  It doesn't fit worth a shit.  The electrical tape has already come off the inside once.  When I focus the monocular with the cap open, sometimes the cap blocks the monocular's built-in IR.  I had no idea the focal length focusability was going to be so terrible on these things.  I am constantly having to adjust to get a clear picture between 2 feet and 10 yards in the backyard.  How on earth do l337 op3r8ors use NVGs for CQB? -N00b
Link Posted: 4/17/2017 7:28:52 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thanks for circling back around.  Yes I still need answers.

Does the MNVD objective side have female screw threads that accept the 30UVP?

I have had a hell of a time with the Butler Creek 09A.  It doesn't fit worth a shit.  The electrical tape has already come off the inside once.  When I focus the monocular with the cap open, sometimes the cap blocks the monocular's built-in IR.  I had no idea the focal length focusability was going to be so terrible on these things.  I am constantly having to adjust to get a clear picture between 2 feet and 10 yards in the backyard.  How on earth do l337 op3r8ors use NVGs for CQB? -N00b
View Quote
The PVS-14 has 30mm standard photography threads. In my experience, many generic "30mm filters" do not fit but quality name-brand ones do. The Tiffen 30UVP is a direct fit to the AN/PVS-14 objective.

The Butler Creek cover that I recommended is PN 30070 and it has served me well.

Depth of field is a big conversation and takes a lot of actual experience to master. Ambient light, supplemental light, apertures and the tasks at hand all have a say in how well you will be able to focus on a given object. If you are walking into a fight then you pick the focus that you think you will need. If you pick the wrong focus then you probably won't have an opportunity to change it. An aperture may give you some latitude if you are able to use it. If the blurry man-shaped object points a blurry rifle-shaped object at you then you will need to evaluate the PID requirements for the situation. If you are kicking in doors in Iraq then your PID requirements will not be the same as someone kicking in their own bedroom door stateside.

Infinity focus works well for infinity up to about 15 feet. A 7mm aperture equipped PVS-14 set to infinity should focus from infinity to 3 feet. Circumstances dictating the need for near and far focus simultaneously can be mitigated with experience and teamwork/task-sharing.

The flip open cover has to go somewhere. I time mine so as not to conflict with the controls. I rarely use the on-board IR. If you try to use the on-board IR in an emergency you will probably shear the ON/OFF knob off of the MNVD.

I hope I answered more questions than I raised, but this is one of the hard parts.
Link Posted: 4/17/2017 8:04:48 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thanks for circling back around.  Yes I still need answers.

Does the MNVD objective side have female screw threads that accept the 30UVP?

I have had a hell of a time with the Butler Creek 09A.  It doesn't fit worth a shit.  The electrical tape has already come off the inside once.  When I focus the monocular with the cap open, sometimes the cap blocks the monocular's built-in IR.  I had no idea the focal length focusability was going to be so terrible on these things.  I am constantly having to adjust to get a clear picture between 2 feet and 10 yards in the backyard.  How on earth do l337 op3r8ors use NVGs for CQB? -N00b
View Quote
To expand what SOT has said: find a better solution than electrical tape & don't mess with the focus too much. Put the open Butler cap in an area where it lays semi-flat against the housing (so you don't break it) & doesn't block your non-aided eye. This with focus set to infinity. For me it blocks a small part of the IR illumination, but it isn't a big deal.

I use adhesive hook Velcro on the inside of the 09A cap. Cut a few strips instead of trying to line the whole circumference.

In practice I never adjust focus on the monocular, if I have to look at something close up I just flip down the lens cover & use IR to make up the difference.
Link Posted: 4/17/2017 8:47:58 PM EDT
[#44]
On night movement.  So true.  I have step off into big friggin holes, tangled in bush, tangled in barbed wire, and just plain fallen on my ass.  When I did it on a regular basis, I got pretty damn good at it. I am trying to work back to that level.  

On the SL, I picked up the one SOT recommended, the UV-30 and with a little light sanding on the threads, it screwed on nicely.  Then the 07 BC fits right over it.  Don't know about the 9a?  I think there are number series for both objective and ocular lenses.  The 07 is an objective cover and fits pretty fuckin good on the -14 front lens.  I was worried about the "crenellations" or whatever you want to call it, but it slips right on there nice n tight.

I run the cover so it flips almost straight down, maybe a little to the right.  That way I just reach up and use it for a focus handle.  Haven't noticed it really in the way.  

So yeah the UV-30 and BC 07 combo is legit.  SOT is giving out the good scoop y'all.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 8:15:57 AM EDT
[#45]
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 9:08:52 AM EDT
[#46]
My favorite thread.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 11:05:48 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
On night movement.  So true.  I have step off into big friggin holes, tangled in bush, tangled in barbed wire, and just plain fallen on my ass.  When I did it on a regular basis, I got pretty damn good at it. I am trying to work back to that level.  

On the SL, I picked up the one SOT recommended, the UV-30 and with a little light sanding on the threads, it screwed on nicely.  Then the 07 BC fits right over it.  Don't know about the 9a?  I think there are number series for both objective and ocular lenses.  The 07 is an objective cover and fits pretty fuckin good on the -14 front lens.  I was worried about the "crenellations" or whatever you want to call it, but it slips right on there nice n tight.

I run the cover so it flips almost straight down, maybe a little to the right.  That way I just reach up and use it for a focus handle.  Haven't noticed it really in the way.  

So yeah the UV-30 and BC 07 combo is legit.  SOT is giving out the good scoop y'all.
View Quote
Size: "07" is the size for the Butler Creek cover - they are available in size 07 for both the Objective and Ocular. The 09 size is too big.

Orientation: I double-checked orientation on my flip cover and I found that with the Gain Knob at 12:00 the hinge for the cap is at 8:30 (looking at it from the front) with the lens screwed all the way in.

Tiffen UVP30: I have no idea why you needed to sand the threads. I have never had an issue with threads on a Tiffen lens. This is over several filters and several PVS-14s.

EDIT: When you reference clocking on a PVS-14 you need to use a permanent landmark, not just the mounting position, because this changes from left to right and from J-Arm to DDA.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 11:15:52 AM EDT
[#48]
whats the best turn key "buy once cry once" setup? some white phosphor sentinels?
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 1:07:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
whats the best turn key "buy once cry once" setup? some white phosphor sentinels?
View Quote
I'm sorry if this offends in some way, but I would prefer if that question were redirected to the main forum as its own thread. The answer to your question is very subjective depending on circumstances and the level of opinion in the responses will likely derail this thread.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 2:46:23 PM EDT
[#50]
Also not to derail thread, I will try and keep this short and sweet.  I have noticed that the threads on this current model I have are slightly coarser than the previous model.  I had an older -14 that I put a rebuild kit onto.  The threads on the obj or front lens must have been slightly finer because it adjusted much slower and easier.  The threads on the unit I have now seem slightly coarser, as the focus is much more abrupt, and has less room for fine-tuning.  So I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but the UV lenses I bought would not screw in easily.  I liked the Tiffen the best, so I hit it lightly with some 150 grit and it screwed right on.  So yeah there was definitely a difference from the factory lens on my current model, and the rebuild kit I used before it.  I mean that's all I know, as a layman and end-user; I'm sure there's tech guys here that might be able to explain why, maybe in another thread.    

OK, duly noted on locations.  As you look at the wearer, with gain a 12 o' clock, my cover hinge is at 7 o'clock, with the unit sitting in front of my left eye.  This is with an Ops Core bump helmet, newer J-arm, and Rhino II mount.  Seems to be a pretty good spot so far.  

Yeah I was gonna say the 09a would be too big but then again I don't know all the BC part numbers/dia's.  All I know is the 07 is a nice tight fit.
Page / 7
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top