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Posted: 4/28/2015 6:48:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Water has a significantly different thermal emissivity than any terrestrial land surface does.
Basically, sole primary thermal motorized navigation on land is an accident/lawsuit waiting to happen. I wonder what the Johnson Criteria is for driving using thermal imagers that would provide a resolution to give a 50 percent probability of an observer discriminating an object to the specified level of ID at speeds up to 30 miles per hour? |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 6:54:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IR Defense would be well advised to include a legal disclaimer in all their product literature that these thermal instruments are not to be utilized for the primary navigation of motorized passenger vehicles before some plaintiff attorney has a major medical injury tort suit, not that IR Defense is advocating it's use as such, but since other users certainly are. My Flir M-324 Pan/Tilt mounted on the UTV first boots up with a legal liability warning stating, "This instrument is not to be used for primary navigation." Quote HistoryQuoted:
IR Defense would be well advised to include a legal disclaimer in all their product literature that these thermal instruments are not to be utilized for the primary navigation of motorized passenger vehicles before some plaintiff attorney has a major medical injury tort suit, not that IR Defense is advocating it's use as such, but since other users certainly are. My Flir M-324 Pan/Tilt mounted on the UTV first boots up with a legal liability warning stating, "This instrument is not to be used for primary navigation." Large corps are terrified of laywers for good reason and say official things accordingly, but but like most good people with common sense, I know not to stick my willie in a blender. Might want to tell your boys at FLIR that too: Imagine if you could navigate safely, even on the darkest nights. Now you can, with FLIR's Navigator II -- a low-cost thermal imager designed for maritime navigation and collision avoidance! With Navigator II, it's easy to see floating debris, channel markers, and other boats in total darkness and reduced visibility. " http://www.flir.com/cvs/apac/en/maritime/ Quoted:
I walk miles of graded (I graded the roads on my tractors) forest road at night here at my place (after I have cleaned up all the tree trunks, branches, and rock outcroppings) and I still manage to trip over exposed roots, hog rooting, freshly falled branches, etc. I havent ever had that problem. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:02:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might want to tell your boys at FLIR that too: "Imagine if you could navigate safely, even on the darkest nights. Now you can, with FLIR's Navigator II -- a low-cost thermal imager designed for maritime navigation and collision avoidance! With Navigator II, it's easy to see floating debris, channel markers, and other boats in total darkness and reduced visibility. " http://www.flir.com/cvs/apac/en/maritime/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
IR Defense would be well advised to include a legal disclaimer in all their product literature that these thermal instruments are not to be utilized for the primary navigation of motorized passenger vehicles before some plaintiff attorney has a major medical injury tort suit, not that IR Defense is advocating it's use as such, but since other users certainly are. My Flir M-324 Pan/Tilt mounted on the UTV first boots up with a legal liability warning stating, "This instrument is not to be used for primary navigation." Might want to tell your boys at FLIR that too: "Imagine if you could navigate safely, even on the darkest nights. Now you can, with FLIR's Navigator II -- a low-cost thermal imager designed for maritime navigation and collision avoidance! With Navigator II, it's easy to see floating debris, channel markers, and other boats in total darkness and reduced visibility. " http://www.flir.com/cvs/apac/en/maritime/ As mentioned previously, when it boots up, it specifically states the legal disclaimer "Not To Be Used for Primary Navigation", even though water has such a tremendous uniform thermal emissivity compared to any terrestrial land surface.
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:14:32 PM EDT
[#4]
As much as the community can probably benefit from the outcome of the "experiment" it should be noted that definitions are critical to the results.
Driving: is self explanatory, always safer is better Driving with Navagational Aides: devices used to plot, plan, measure, enhance driving safely. So the applicability and marketing of navigation will be broad and shouldn't be interpreted as a replacement for driving all together, after all Cadillac put a thermal system in it's cars not to drive with but rather to provide navigational advantages. I don't think a disclaimer is required for a product that isn't advertised as a driving component. SO ANYWAYS BACK TO THE CONTENT OF THE THREAD. What were the weather conditions on the day the images/video were recorded? |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:21:06 PM EDT
[#5]
This new development in helmet mounted thermals could be great for motorcross night races on moto tracks or even night cruises on the property through the forests!
We are currently working on getting together a Sentinel NV Goggle night road race video in our go-karts that do 110 mph, maybe we should try thermal too! |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:40:04 PM EDT
[#6]
IRD never even brought up the topic navigation in this thread or the video. It's just a great video of a direct side-by-side comparison in ONE specific environment. Videos like this are VERY rare in the NV/Thermal world. The whole "you're gonna die if you take a step wearing head mounted thermal" thing came from skyflirpimp. It really doesnt have much of anything to do with the OP. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:54:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Good luck OddDuMet, you'll need it!
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:06:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Identification requires 6.4lp, which is interpreted to be 13 pixels, according to Johnson's criteria, with the 50 percent probability. The resolution of the Patrol far, far exceeds ID minimum capability, at least In favorable conditions, even video reveals this.
How Johnson's criteria are relevant to speed, I don't know, but I sure as hell know that any thermal provides more resolution than the naked eye on a dark night! Perhaps wisdom informs that 30mph might be too fast, eh? 5, 10, 15... Even walking exceeds the speed you, for example, are comfortable relying on thermal. But who says you gotta drive that UTV at 30mph? If there is going to be an issue it will be overload related, as you have previously written, as Vic has reiterated and as TX Hogs Has mentioned. It sure isn't going to be resolution with the Patrol, at least on favorable nights. Fwiw, some Sportfishing boats use FLIR marine systems at speed in excess of 30mph. Most captains I have spoken to about using their FLIR systems think 20-25kts is safe. 20kts is 23mph, 25kts is about 29mph. On the FLIR marine units and water's emisivity, you would be surprised how a seemingly temperature uniform body of water has differential based on wave action, turbulence, other factors. Moreover, whatever you are trying to avoid hitting has been partially, maybe almost wholly submerged in that water. JPK |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:13:31 PM EDT
[#9]
At least he should not have any trouble differentiating water from land at night while navigating with thermal !
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:26:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Hey Sky Pup, where did your post bringing up resolution, speed and Johnson's criteria go?
Eh, next time I will need to quote your post since you seem to edit or delete them well after they've been pointed out as... Well, after they have been pointed out.... JPK |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:31:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Water has a significantly different thermal emissivity than any terrestrial land surface does.
Basically, sole primary thermal motorized navigation on land is an accident/lawsuit waiting to happen. I wonder what the Johnson Criteria is for driving using thermal imagers that would provide a resolution to give a 50 percent probability of an observer discriminating an object to the specified level of ID at speeds up to 30 miles per hour? It is right here were it was? You must have missed it somehow. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:35:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Identification requires 6.4lp, which is interpreted to be 13 pixels, according to Johnson's criteria, with the 50 percent probability. The resolution of the Patrol far, far exceeds ID minimum capability, at least In favorable conditions, even video reveals this. How Johnson's criteria are relevant to speed, I don't know, but I sure as hell know that any thermal provides more resolution than the naked eye on a dark night! Perhaps wisdom informs that 30mph might be too fast, eh? 5, 10, 15... Even walking exceeds the speed you, for example, are comfortable relying on thermal. But who says you gotta drive that UTV at 30mph? If there is going to be an issue it will be overload related, as you have previously written, as Vic has reiterated and as TX Hogs Has mentioned. It sure isn't going to be resolution with the Patrol, at least on favorable nights. Fwiw, some Sportfishing boats use FLIR marine systems at speed in excess of 30mph. Most captains I have spoken to about using their FLIR systems think 20-25kts is safe. 20kts is 23mph, 25kts is about 29mph. On the FLIR marine units and water's emisivity, you would be surprised how a seemingly temperature uniform body of water has differential based on wave action, turbulence, other factors. Moreover, whatever you are trying to avoid hitting has been partially, maybe almost wholly submerged in that water. JPK Hmmm, sounds like it might be safer to go SLOW in that case since the thermal is not any good for navigational purposes besides avoiding dangerous unpleasantries? |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:35:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Good luck OddDuMet, you'll need it!
I really don't think he' ll need any luck at all with what he's wanting to do. To be honest when hunting large row crops we rarely even use nv. Drive with your lights off in your truck, scan with your thermal, locate then go after them. Shit, I've been on a full sprint at 2 am on plowed ground trying to get in range before the hogs make it to a tree line. I've also walked with my 307 up to my eye when closing in to make sure a boar didn't blow us. And no the 307 is not very good in this role , but it can be done. Helmet mounting a unit like the patrol you can easily creep on the roads with your head looking at the fields. Especially if it's crushed concrete. However, Hunting roads around rice fields might take some more attention. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:38:57 PM EDT
[#14]
It will be an amazing thermal waltz through fields, piece of cake even with a 3X extender lens!
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:40:20 PM EDT
[#15]
You guys are really mucking up this thread. It's an interesting discussion but please, start a new thread on it. I'd like to contribute without mucking up Scott's post with more semi off topic stuff.
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:42:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys are really mucking up this thread. It's an interesting discussion but please, start a new thread on it. I'd like to contribute without mucking up Scott's post with more semi off topic stuff. You are correct! Looking forward to more video from Scott! |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 8:56:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It will be an amazing thermal waltz through fields, piece of cake even with a 3X extender lens! I think Bushman has a good point, so after this short post I will heed his suggestion. Sky Pup, you are correct, I missed your post somehow. And again, I respect your experience and your exposure to many devices, but walking without NV or thermal at night just isn't that tough, even "cross country" across fields or through the woods, marsh or swamp. Driving two tracks or gravel roads, berms, etc, is trickier, and 30mph isn't wise, but it can be done. To the extent that thermal is any aide it will be beneficial. JOK |
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Posted: 4/29/2015 11:04:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Navigating at night with a helmet mounted monocular thermal is difficult at best and for certain very dangerous as you will find your arse on the ground (or worse) in a hurry. You take baby steps at night with a helmet mounted thermal, and that is if you know where you are going extremely well, if you don't know where you are going you will be on your arse guaranteed. I walk miles of graded (I graded the roads on my tractors) forest road at night here at my place (after I have cleaned up all the tree trunks, branches, and rock outcroppings) and I still manage to trip over exposed roots, hog rooting, freshly falled branches, etc. If I see a thermal signature off the road, my thermal helmeted mounted monocular is virtually worthless for heading off the road out into the woods and I would not even try to attempt it without an ambulance standing by for the trip to the hospital. If you need situational awareness and mobility under less than ideal conditions, stick with GEN III NV.  I completely agree that driving with any night vision device is dangerous and should only be done by trained individuals. That being said we are putting these videos out there to accomplish several things. 1. We need to educate the guys that do not have the experience to put thermal and I2 side by side. These videos do that. I2 is amazing (3rd Gen at least) but thermal is really coming around. 2. There was no non-bias comparison done anywhere, we are actually filming these fairly (I'm sure people will contest this but we do) 3. We see too many people on these forums unconditionally pushing a certain brand of thermal. We more than anyone understand that there is not one company that makes the best of all things thermal, where FLIR might make the best scope A, L3 might make the best scope type B and IRD type C. Unfortunately we see certain guys that will go to no ends to push people that one brand is superior to all others in every way and every product. So we are going to be putting videos out that show the view from your eye (looking through the eyepiece) of all these systems side by side. 4. We believe a large number of users really do not understand the complete capabilites thermal can do and want to show. 5. MOST IMPORTANT. We are demonstrating that the new 12um Micron technology has identification capabilities over the older 17um Micron. 6. And last we see so many images out there that are posted and no one explains that the image is taking through the video out or image capture. Why is this important, well I know of certain brands that actual are selling 640x480 sights with low resolution displays, an image captured is full resolution but when viewed through the eyepiece you see what the display resolution is. We want to bring these practices to light. All said we are just trying to bring some level of understanding to everyone here that wants to learn more, we know there are lots of you out there that already know all this but there are also alot that are looking to learn. Thank you Scott |
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Posted: 4/29/2015 11:16:23 AM EDT
[#19]
For reference here is a Gen 2 WPT vs Thermal Video in a hunting scenario.
This video uses a DLSR on the NV and video output on the Thermal. You can see how much better Scott's dual through the eyepiece video is in comparison to the video below. This really illustrates how accurate Scott's video is to what you see through the eyepiece of a PVS14 and an IR Patrol.
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Posted: 4/29/2015 11:38:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Hi Scott,
Excellent comparison. Nice work! Yes, it looks like we did have the same idea, although your camera setup looks a little more refined than my scrap piece of MDF  The IR Patrol looks like a great unit and it appears to share a lot of the same qualities and features as the BAE UTM, which is a great thing. Looking forward to seeing more reviews and comparisons.
Keeping with the topic of the thread, here are a few pictures I took this weekend comparing the picture through a NV clip-on vs. thermal clip-on. 
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Posted: 4/29/2015 11:55:08 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I completely agree that driving with any night vision device is dangerous and should only be done by trained individuals. That being said we are putting these videos out there to accomplish several things. 1. We need to educate the guys that do not have the experience to put thermal and I2 side by side. These videos do that. I2 is amazing (3rd Gen at least) but thermal is really coming around. 2. There was no non-bias comparison done anywhere, we are actually filming these fairly (I'm sure people will contest this but we do) 3. We see too many people on these forums unconditionally pushing a certain brand of thermal. We more than anyone understand that there is not one company that makes the best of all things thermal, where FLIR might make the best scope A, L3 might make the best scope type B and IRD type C. Unfortunately we see certain guys that will go to no ends to push people that one brand is superior to all others in every way and every product. So we are going to be putting videos out that show the view from your eye (looking through the eyepiece) of all these systems side by side. 4. We believe a large number of users really do not understand the complete capabilites thermal can do and want to show. 5. MOST IMPORTANT. We are demonstrating that the new 12um Micron technology has identification capabilities over the older 17um Micron. 6. And last we see so many images out there that are posted and no one explains that the image is taking through the video out or image capture. Why is this important, well I know of certain brands that actual are selling 640x480 sights with low resolution displays, an image captured is full resolution but when viewed through the eyepiece you see what the display resolution is. We want to bring these practices to light. All said we are just trying to bring some level of understanding to everyone here that wants to learn more, we know there are lots of you out there that already know all this but there are also alot that are looking to learn. Thank you Scott Scott, I am but one member here. I really appreciate your posting these pics/videos and hate that what should be a very useful technical thread has been tainted by the sophomoric banter and screen name alterations/altercations above. Bushman was right on the mark from my POV...this is a technical forum and I'm here to learn. You have provided a tool to help me do that. I'm in the market for a thermal scope. I handled a prototype M300W at the TNVC booth at SHOT and was very impressed. We rented a IR Hunter MKII from UNV for my son's first hog hunt - it helped to create a very successful memory for us. To your point about different companies offering different products,, our hunt wouldn't have been as successful without a FLIR LS-64. I just recently retail purchased a FLIR PS-32 at a massive discount as a travel/truck tool. I buy the best tool at the best value for the job I need to do. My second job is with an FFL, and people ask my opinion on what I think works. Experience with personal devices, getting explanations and demonstrations from trade shows, and what I read and see here all help form my opinions and recommendations. They also help me maximize the value of my personal dollars when buying gear. Thank you for helping with my education. To those that have derailed this thread - please stop. To those that are using this site to carry out business competition - please stop. There's IM for that crap. You aren't doing your individual companies or those that you support any favors with this particular consumer. Scott, I'd love to see some pics of a IR Patrol M300W in clip on mode in front of a TA31 ACOG, Elcan, or other low power optic. I'm leaning toward a Patrol over an IR Hunter MKII right now, but need the video proof before I preorder. Oh, and to the guys (rich and Ford) that posted the LWTS pics -that was awesome work and very helpful. Comparing your shots against what Scott's able to produce really help in my decision process. If the Patrol is close, I'll go that way because it's over $4k cheaper. If not, I'll have to save some more, as your pictures from the LWTS are compelling. |
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Posted: 4/29/2015 12:03:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... Scott, I'd love to see some pics of a IR Patrol M300W in clip on mode in front of a TA31 ACOG, Elcan, or other low power optic. I'm leaning toward a Patrol over an IR Hunter MKII right now, but need the video proof before I preorder. .... This, please... |
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Posted: 4/29/2015 12:18:12 PM EDT
[#23]
If possible I'd like to see a comparison of the 14 and patrol mounted on a vehicle. Then show comparison of image at different speeds forward or even a side angle.
Thanks |
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Posted: 4/29/2015 12:20:49 PM EDT
[#24]
Wow rich! Great pics again! Thanks for posting!
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Posted: 4/29/2015 12:22:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Oh goodie, the thread is back on track today! With value-added inputs from Rich and Tyler to boot
I'm not sure why my question is being overlooked on the conditions report from the video session so I will move to a new strategy and throw an additional request into the IRD hopper. Side by Side comparison of an IR Shooter vs Thermal cause the next gen of digital (Intevac) optics should be considered "night vision" too ... I think IRD knows a couple of things or two about digital 
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Posted: 4/29/2015 12:23:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For reference here is a Gen 2 WPT vs Thermal Video in a hunting scenario.This video uses a DLSR on the NV and video output on the Thermal. You can see how much better Scott's dual through the eyepiece video is in comparison to the video below. This really illustrates how accurate Scott's video is to what you see through the eyepiece of a PVS14 and an IR Patrol.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=251i3NVuE_k
Great video Tyler! You can really see the difference between the NV and thermal when you look at the pigs under the trees. NV ordinarily does well picking up hogs because their dark color provides a lot of contrast in an environment like an open field, but it becomes a lot more difficult along a tree line or other dark backgrounds. From watching your videos it looks like you have some great hunting land with a plentiful hog and coyote population. I'm jealous! |
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Posted: 4/29/2015 7:06:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<Snip> cause the next gen of digital (Intevac) optics should be considered "night vision" too ... I think IRD knows a couple of things or two about digital Those are what we call TRUE fusion devices.
Here is a Vid with the new IR Patrol with human types. We have more Vids getting shot with facial ID comparing the Patrol with a 14 as well.
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Posted: 4/29/2015 10:30:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Few pics I snapped tonight in my neighborhood. Hand selected very clean pvs and a 35mm MK2 Pics were taken with a iPhone. I tried using my dslr, but I could never get the image into focus.
First pic through NV  " />
MK2 white hot  " />
MK2 black  " />
MK2white  " />
Pvs  " />
White hot  " />
Black hot  " />
Pvs  " />
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Posted: 4/30/2015 12:01:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Nice pics K!
Vic |
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Posted: 4/30/2015 3:01:22 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh goodie, the thread is back on track today! With value-added inputs from Rich and Tyler to boot
I'm not sure why my question is being overlooked on the conditions report from the video session so I will move to a new strategy and throw an additional request into the IRD hopper. Side by Side comparison of an IR Shooter vs Thermal cause the next gen of digital (Intevac) optics should be considered "night vision" too ... I think IRD knows a couple of things or two about digital Conditions were clear with light scattered and no moon. Moon did not atter though as we had a lot of adjacent lighting. A for the IR Shooter we have switched gears as Intevac is stopping production of there ICIE10 line and the 11 is over $8 a sensor. Instead we are moving into a new level of CMOS and we should have some test footage to share in the next 60 days. |
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Posted: 4/30/2015 1:40:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Some good pics by km above. I'm impressed with the IRdefense line no doubt
Is there any chance OP could try to take pics of various things and post? Cat or dogs pics are always nice, maybe some other various things like trucks and people. Large nice pics I feel like represent the picture quality of thermal and NV better than anything. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 10:33:17 AM EDT
[#32]
I've navigated an M1 Abrams tank using the Thermal Imaging Sight (TIS) and while relaying commands to the driver, under both day and night conditions.
It's particularly good for "brown out" conditions where both the driver's periscopes and the day optics are obscured by dust - the gun tube is max depressed, and the gunner keeps it in his center periscope while the TC or gunner guides the vehicle, and it allows you to go pretty "balls out" speed-wise over terrain without much problem, through winding tank trails. Apples to apples? Absolutely not. But the basic supposition that "thermal cannot be used as a primary navigation device for a motorized vehicle traveling over land/terrain" is patently and demonstrably false. The basic Abrams design dates from the 70s - I have little to no background in the technological differences between the TIS and smaller hand-held systems, but I've got to believe that it's not impossible to eventually develop the kind of technology that allows that level of capability in a smaller vehicle, and eventually head mounted form. Are we there yet? I have no idea, but the impression that I'm getting is probably not? But I'm too cheap/poor to afford commercial thermals right now, and even if I could, it wouldn't be the high end/high side items. But again - Quoted:
Basically, sole primary thermal motorized navigation on land is an accident/lawsuit waiting to happen. This statement, in the simplest form, and without caveats, is untrue. (the accident part -- I cannot comment on any legal ramifications) ~Augee |
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Posted: 5/3/2015 9:29:29 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 5/3/2015 9:30:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We updated the link and also added Episode 3 : Sniper Detection SNIPER DETECTION : EPISODE 3 Is there no episode 2? |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 6:58:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Here is the comparison a some have asked for. It is between the 17um and the 12um. Both systems are 35mm lens systems and both are 640x480.
These videos were shot through the eyepiece so the entire scope (display, core processor, etc.) is taken into account. Please not any video you see taken from the video out does not represent what you will see if you buy a scope and look through the eyepiece, the video is stripped at the core so any display, eyepiece or post processing issues will not be visible on the video out. And in some cases manufacturer's have put 300 resolution displays on 640x480 core systems. Please watch the video for at: EPISODE 4 : 12um versus 17um We will be launching an interactive video in the next month or two to explain the internal process from lens to eyepiece of how thermal works. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 7:39:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Scott, perhaps you can post a comparo raw 14-bit direct digital video from the cores without any post capture image processing algorithms or NTSC manipulation?
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Posted: 5/10/2015 8:05:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Scott, perhaps you can post a comparo raw 14-bit direct digital video from the cores without any post capture image processing algorithms or NTSC manipulation? Curious why you would want that? I don't look through a core, I look through an eyepiece/display. Seems to me that a capture and comparison of the actual display video would be what matters to the consumer, not the theoretical difference between cores. What am I missing? |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 8:08:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Great video, these are really helping me to make my mind up.
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Posted: 5/10/2015 8:46:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Great video ep 4, this is exactly what I noticed between the RS64-35 & the MK2.
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Posted: 5/10/2015 9:20:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious why you would want that? I don't look through a core, I look through an eyepiece/display. Seems to me that a capture and comparison of the actual display video would be what matters to the consumer, not the theoretical difference between cores. What am I missing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Scott, perhaps you can post a comparo raw 14-bit direct digital video from the cores without any post capture image processing algorithms or NTSC manipulation? Curious why you would want that? I don't look through a core, I look through an eyepiece/display. Seems to me that a capture and comparison of the actual display video would be what matters to the consumer, not the theoretical difference between cores. What am I missing? Just taking a stab here. The pointless scenario would be more favorable to FLIR?
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Posted: 5/10/2015 9:28:02 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just taking a stab here. The pointless scenario would be more favorable to FLIR? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Scott, perhaps you can post a comparo raw 14-bit direct digital video from the cores without any post capture image processing algorithms or NTSC manipulation? Curious why you would want that? I don't look through a core, I look through an eyepiece/display. Seems to me that a capture and comparison of the actual display video would be what matters to the consumer, not the theoretical difference between cores. What am I missing? Just taking a stab here. The pointless scenario would be more favorable to FLIR? The scenario would most likely be pointless to you.
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Posted: 5/10/2015 9:51:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Where is the IRD patrol?
I'm looking at a LWTS. It's 17 micron but I'm guessing not all 17 micron 640 thermals are alike. does LWTS wash out like the one Scott shows in his comparison? |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 12:06:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where is the IRD patrol?
I'm looking at a LWTS. It's 17 micron but I'm guessing not all 17 micron 640 thermals are alike. does LWTS wash out like the one Scott shows in his comparison? I've tried hard to put the LWTS in a situation that results in a washout and haven't been able to do so. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 12:54:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Many of the comparisons in video 4 show better detail in the 12um vs the Flir 17um, but if you pay attention, the 12um is aimed at/centered on the target whose detail is being discussed(and even adjusted at times to center on the target)while the Flir is typically aimed below the target. This can certainly affect the appearance of the target.
Also the Flir unit is using a crappy LCD(rs_64?) Vs the OLED behind the BAE core. The good systems that utilize the 17um Flir core also utilize an OLED display. I like what I see with the IR Hunter, but let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples so consumers aren't being misled. Disclaimer: I own no stock in any competing parties! Just a fanatic! Edit to add: I think IR Defense is doing all the right things with the MarkII. I was recently VERY CLOSE to purchasing a MkII, but went with a '17um competitor' primarily due to reports of durability and survivorship in the field, also because I wanted a bit more magnification. My experience with the '17um competitor core' has been most excellent. If the 12um cores had more time under their belts out in the real world, I perhaps would have gone that route. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 1:38:53 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm liking the video series. Aside from the magnification difference, that comparison of 17 vs 12 micron really only demonstrated the differences in the image processing software. A more apt comparison would've been between a 640 Mk1 with the same lens size.
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Posted: 5/11/2015 1:42:28 PM EDT
[#46]
I love head to head comparisons. But, the images in the videos do not represent what I am used to seeing with my 35mm FLIR LS-XR. I am very skeptical. I have no problem giving IR Defense credit for having a better image. I bought my LS-XR because I trust FLIR as a company, the internal battery, instalert, and the fact that I can download my own updates.
I do not think the representation of the FLIR was accurate. Like I said, head to head comparisons are great. You learn strengths and weaknesses of products. They just can't be rigged in favor of one company. That is no way representative of a 640 core 35mm FLIR product. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 1:47:16 PM EDT
[#47]
I have owned shares of stock in L3, Flir, ATK, General Dynamics, Raytheon, ,Honeywell, and BAE ADR, and every-time I post tens of millions of dollars of profits are made and tens of millions of shares change hands instantly due to my decisive insider information and control of the international thermal markets.
My financial advisers from Merrill, Oppenheimer, Schwab, Goldman Sachs, and T.Rowe Price, (in addition to large institutional investors) watch every move I make on the Arfcom NV forums. Knowing the current firmware updates of the competing systems would make any comparison more COMPETITIVE. |
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Posted: 5/11/2015 2:53:32 PM EDT
[#48]
I have the LS-XR with latest firmware. It puts out a good image, better than the old firmware and I am pleased with it. That aside it still plays second fiddle in image quality & clarity to my MK2.
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Posted: 5/11/2015 3:11:46 PM EDT
[#49]
A MKII-35mm scope is much more like a RS64-60mm scope than an LS-XR handheld is.
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Posted: 5/11/2015 4:45:32 PM EDT
[#50]
I don't know what the IR Defense guys are looking to prove. Yes. It has a better image. But, that comparison was garbage.
If we are going to tell the whole story ... lets talk about all the software glitches or missed shipping deadlines, |
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