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Posted: 8/26/2014 10:52:07 AM EDT
Something to defend property with, shoot and manipulate weapons, see threats in both open areas and brush. Will one do all this better than the other?
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 11:00:09 AM EDT
[#1]
Gen 3 PVS-14, hands down. Thermal comes later. If you are only going to have one unit, it needs to give you the ability to identify what you are pointing a loaded weapon at.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 11:19:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 11:22:26 AM EDT
[#3]
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Need a little more info to answer accurately. What is the farthest distance to shoot/scan on your property? What is the brush made up of, as in what type of plants? Also, what is a comfortable budget?
 
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Quoted:
Something to defend property with, shoot and manipulate weapons, see threats in both open areas and brush. Will one do all this better than the other?
Need a little more info to answer accurately. What is the farthest distance to shoot/scan on your property? What is the brush made up of, as in what type of plants? Also, what is a comfortable budget?
 

2-3 hundred yards southern woodland. I would expect to pay upwards of 3 grand for quality.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 11:24:50 AM EDT
[#4]
Delta4-3 and most others here (who have far more experience than I do) are virtually unanimous in their consensus that, if you can have only one, it should be NV over thermal.

I dissent from that opinion, which might be showing my ignorance, but aside from close-range positive ID and navigating on foot or in a vehicle, I think thermal pounds NV into the dust -- oh yeah, NV is certainly better for CQB as well.

Thermal can detect heat signatures in pitch black. It's entirely passive, so illumination is not necessary meaning you'll never have to give your position away. It can detect through *some* *light* cover and camo, shadows, etc won't help a target like it would with Gen 3 NV. NV is much easier to hide from and has a relatively limited detection range, much less engagement range, compared to quality thermal.

In my particular situation, if I could have only one, I'd opt for either an L3 x320, a Pulsar HD19s (or HD38s if detection range is crucial) or on the cheaper end I'd roll with a Therm-App. Both the Pulsars and the TA have higher-resolution 384px sensors, which is great for longer-range detection and you'll be able to ID at longer ranges as well. What I mean by "ID" is you'll know it's a man, dog, cow, etc.

Lastly, in defense of my ignorance, look at all Spectre and AH64 gun-cam footage. What technology do they use almost exclusively when hunting and engaging bad guys?
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 11:32:45 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 11:37:32 AM EDT
[#6]
The AH64 is using completely different tech than you will find on the consumer market though.
There are certainly people who would be fine with just thermal...but I am guilty of giving advice geared toward how I use my optics. To me, being able to maneuver, navigate, walk, and drive with helmet mounted night vision is way up there on the priority list. Some people have no desire to do that, but I just can't see giving that up.

Link Posted: 8/26/2014 11:38:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 12:45:24 PM EDT
[#8]
This is just my personal thought, but if it is either one or the other, I would pick gen 3 night vision now, and thermal later.  Night vision is a somewhat mature technology, and a PVS-14 from today is not that much better than a PVS-14 from 10 years ago.  The same can not be said about thermal tech, particularly in the last couple of years, as some of the new stuff coming on the market is leaps ahead of what was on the market just a few years ago.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 1:06:18 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
Delta4-3 and most others here (who have far more experience than I do) are virtually unanimous in their consensus that, if you can have only one, it should be NV over thermal.

I dissent from that opinion, which might be showing my ignorance, but aside from close-range positive ID and navigating on foot or in a vehicle, I think thermal pounds NV into the dust -- oh yeah, NV is certainly better for CQB as well.

Thermal can detect heat signatures in pitch black. It's entirely passive, so illumination is not necessary meaning you'll never have to give your position away. It can detect through *some* *light* cover and camo, shadows, etc won't help a target like it would with Gen 3 NV. NV is much easier to hide from and has a relatively limited detection range, much less engagement range, compared to quality thermal.

In my particular situation, if I could have only one, I'd opt for either an L3 x320, a Pulsar HD19s (or HD38s if detection range is crucial) or on the cheaper end I'd roll with a Therm-App. Both the Pulsars and the TA have higher-resolution 384px sensors, which is great for longer-range detection and you'll be able to ID at longer ranges as well. What I mean by "ID" is you'll know it's a man, dog, cow, etc.

Lastly, in defense of my ignorance, look at all Spectre and AH64 gun-cam footage. What technology do they use almost exclusively when hunting and engaging bad guys?
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I wonder how your wife might feel about this opinion if she is out and about along with the bad guy(s) when you are engaging?  I can hear the AAR now....damn baby, I detected a target and didn't mean to shoot you instead of the actual threat.

Let's talk apples-to-apples cost factor wise, since you are accustomed to really nice $10-15k+ thermal devices.  A $3k I^2 will "pound into the dust" a comparably priced thermal in all practical SHTF scenarios.  Step it up to the $10k+ range for the nicer thermals, and one can have an I^2 monocular on their helmet for nav, PLUS an entry level thermal for gross detection, PLUS a magnified I^2 riflescope for engagement with appropriate target ID....but oh wait, that is the setup that I run.

Have you ever tried shooting while moving with a thermal?  If your first static shot with the thermal is not lethal or if there are multiple BGs, the I^2 equipped will be out flanking you very quickly.

Horta, you seem to be a really good guy with lots of terrifically nice high end gear, but I have to stick with the majority on this one in that I^2 ID and realtime response trumps thermal DETECTION for the application that the OP has indicated.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 1:07:02 PM EDT
[#10]
There is always the option of thermal for detection, and good ole fashioned white light for ID.  But if you are talking about the possibility of armed bad guys on your property, this may be a bad idea.






Edit:  Or even better, use thermal for detection and call 911 for positive ID.




You can do this with thermal alone, but buddy you better be good at it and you better watch your P's and Q's.  Thermal takes lots of getting used to, and can really suck in fast moving situations especially if there is a chance of a mix of good and bad dudes in the same spot.

 
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 1:16:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Despite what you see below as the others have said NV is where to start.
I have a FLIR T-50 thermal scope and I rarely if ever use it as the 740 allows me to know what I am shooting, and in my area pretty much anything goes
at night as we do not have farm animals.

Ok someone is there but who?



Also to add thermal cannot see through glass. So if you heard something go bump in the night outside you could look out through the window covertly with the NV.
If you were so inclined you could add outdoor IR lighting to enahance what you can see, espcially on dark nights.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 1:31:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Here is another consideration...

If the BG goes active IR in any way, like if he is using inexpensive I^2 or digital, he will be a beacon target for your passive I^2, but thermal won't see any difference at all.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 1:39:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 2:08:55 PM EDT
[#14]
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I got it MM, I read your post a bit wrong the first time around...  On the flip side, IR light discipline is just like vis light discipline.
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Quoted:
Here is another consideration...

If the BG goes active IR in any way, like if he is using inexpensive I^2 or digital, he will be a beacon target for your passive I^2, but thermal won't see any difference at all.


I got it MM, I read your post a bit wrong the first time around...  On the flip side, IR light discipline is just like vis light discipline.


Actually, I think that you did get it right the first time.  I haven't ever found the need to go active when using the 740 to augment the 14 and M24.  Pretty much, the only time that I click on the M1-IR over my left ear is when riding the quad, and that is kinda noisy to begin with.  
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 2:19:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 2:26:11 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


Agreed and ID is KING for home defense and would not even think about thermal for ANY shooting scenarios due to lack of ID
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Gen 3 PVS-14, hands down. Thermal comes later. If you are only going to have one unit, it needs to give you the ability to identify what you are pointing a loaded weapon at.


Agreed and ID is KING for home defense and would not even think about thermal for ANY shooting scenarios due to lack of ID


+1

Also thermal is cool but IMO is not a jaw dropping as a good gen 3 tube.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 2:31:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Something to defend property with, shoot and manipulate weapons, see threats in both open areas and brush. Will one do all this better than the other?
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IMOP there is no perfect answer. I spend a lot of hours hunting at night an im fortunate enough th own thermal and nv. I spot with the thermal and make the shot with nv however the things I shoot at dont shoot back and if they did I think I would want the thermal scope. This is what I would choose if I was defending my home or property and was taking fire and I knew everything I detected was my enemy. If I need to detect something fast and kill it thermal is my choice.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 2:43:24 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm going to have to agree w/ the majority, I would buy a PVS-14 if I were you.  A good NV monoc is an amazingly versatile device and for ~$3k it will do a ton of things a comparably priced thermal just can't.  

*You can head mount it for navigation, observation, shooting w/ IR laser, or even looking through your primary optic (I have found the Crye NightCap to make that last thing far more practical than helmets I have tried).  
*You can weapon mount it using any of a wide variety of rail mounts (thus far the TM14 twist mount is my favorite, but the LaRue LT-755-14 is a close second) or dayscope adapters (purpose built or home-brew like mine).  
*PVS-14 has a MUCH wider FOV compared to thermal
*Will run on a single AA battery for a LONG time, thermal eats batterieS much faster.
*Real time viewing vs. much slower refresh rate of thermal...  especially the lower end units

I love my thermal but if I had ~$3k to spend to be able to see in the dark it would be a PVS-14 (I got my latest Optics Planet OPMOD on sale for ~$2430 on sale last December), a Crye NightCap, Crimson Trace Railmaster IR laser, Wilcox L4 shroud, Wilcox lanyard, EOG low profile short counterweight, and a surplus Rhino mount.  If a little more $$ is in the budget I'd get a 3x magnifier, TM-14 weapon mount, and a good illuminator.
Link Posted: 8/26/2014 3:10:40 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
Horta, you seem to be a really good guy with lots of terrifically nice high end gear, but I have to stick with the majority on this one in that I^2 ID and realtime response trumps thermal DETECTION for the application that the OP has indicated.
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There you go again, MM. Using logic and facts, when both are verboten on the interwebs.

Sheesh, man! Get with the program!
Link Posted: 8/27/2014 3:24:21 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:

There you go again, MM. Using logic and facts, when both are verboten on the interwebs.

Sheesh, man! Get with the program!
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Ok, how about this idea.... instead of using a firearm for HD, get a really big giant ass flame thrower!

Just imagine the benefits:

-Blind the BG that is stupid enough to be using I^2.
-Eliminate the BG's cover; just be extra careful when employing indoors.
-It will look really neat through your thermal.
-Can also be used to cook up a nice warm snack if the power is out; not recommended for use with MREs.

Is that better?  
Link Posted: 8/27/2014 3:53:01 PM EDT
[#21]
http://gs.flir.com/surveillance-products/milsight/aduns

OP, this is what you want

Advanced Dual-Band Universal Night Sights

and no, they will not sell it to you

and yes, it is upwards of three grand, way upwards, like 55 grand.
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