Spoke with IR Defense today...

Here is the story:

- No further development is being done on the Mk 2;   So, no firmware updates - period.

- The MK2 and the MK3 35mm are the same; only the 60mm is different in that it's got a new lens

- If you want the features of the MK3, you have UPGRADE your MK2 to a MK3, even if you don't want the:

-- 2 Lever Larue Mount
-- Download Cable
-- Software Package
-- Battery Extender
-- Butler Creek Lens covers

Basically, it's a $950 charge to get the ability to mount your scope on multiple weapons, plus the ranging feature and ability to get coordinates.

IR Defense is a great group a folks to speak with, and I'd take them over any other vendor due to the fact that you can just call them and get a person to help you on the spot.

HOWEVER, it's a little but ridiculous to have to pay $950.00 (as opposed to a few hundred) to get the fireware updated on your MK2 (which makes it a MK3).

Well that sucks.  Thanks for the update GB.

Yes, that is disappointing news (if true). I don't need or want the download cable, I already got the batt extender and BC cap when I got the MK II from UNV, and the one lever LaRue mount seems to work fine for me, as it does on my FLIR RS64. So that means I would pay nearly a grand and wait 30 days for only new SW, and an improved mount that prob would cost $250 retail direct from LaRue.

This implies to me (an EE) the MK II uses OTP ROM (one time programmable) for the SW and requires a chip and/or pcb swap to update SW.

As we say at Ga Tech: damn poor, rat.

Agree?.  I have a MKII also and it does what I expected and then some.   However.....  I was looking forward to a software upgrade but I'm not paying over 900 for it.  I already have battery extender, caps, and the larue mount works like a larue.   I'm glad you posted your thoughts on this,  I was thinking the same way.  Lots of hype about new upgrades but the price tag for a software upgrade has left me a little jaded with IRD.   Also,  when a previous customer upgrades to a larger lens, what's happens to the old germanium lens?

So what's really going on is that they had a price increase?

If most of us have the accessories, then all we really need is the firmware update.   Surely that's a few hundred at the most...

I purchased this unit with the understanding that they'd take care of us regarding bug fixes.  What annoys me is that there are not doing ANY MK2 work anymore.  So I bought a $6500 TWS only to have issues with the menus, and the calibration occasionally "white out."  That kind of stuff is the sort of thing they need to fix and not be charging for... If the fix is to get the MK3 firmware, then they need to come out with another option.

This sorta rubs me the wrong way....  I'd be really PO'ed if I couldn't afford the MK3 upgrade, and I suspect there are people out there who purchased the MK2 that $1000.00 is real money for.

Regarding your response:  

The MK2 is prone to screen freezing - even with the battery extender, prone to disappearing menus, and prone to the screen turning white during calibration.

IR Defense opted to stop developing the MK2 firmware, without fixing the aforementioned issues.

This means that someone at IRD made a decision to not update the issues in the MK2, which makes them questionable in their integrity.

Since the ONLY fix/solution is to flash the firmware to the MK3 code set, that means that IR Defense made a strategic decision to hose the MK2 owners.

If you bought the MK2 from UNV, you got all of the cool accessories; there is NO advantage to buying a MK3 upgrade to get a bunch of stuff you don't need.

That price includes new hardware. Some folks just want a firmware upgrade and not the new hardware.

It was told on this forum there would be firmware upgrades, and I imagine a lot of folks bought on that premise.

I agree with this assessment.   I have an MKII and all I was expecting was a software upgrade.    I don't need all the additional hardware, just a simple fix of a few issues I'm having with the software.   We were told there would be a fix for this but I was not expecting to pay $1000 for it.    I'm not very happy with IRD and would not rec their products at this point due to these issues.   This market is very competitive and there are lots of options for future purchases.

That is more than just a little rediculous to be expected to have to pay for software bug fixes.  Is there not a warranty on the device?  This is a relatively small market space, if that is really what they are doing to customers who recently spent THOUSANDS of dollars on their product then I can't imagine the customer base not responding.  Whether or not that $1k is a big deal to the end user is irrelevant, software bug fixes should be free.  FLIR has got the right idea on this front.

Somebody should send them a link to this thread.

I'm researching which way I wanna go when I bust that move on a new thermal device this spring and one of these was a contender.
So yeah, I'm watching this l'il sideshow. I'll reserve an opinion on it cause I don't have a dog in this particular fight.
But I'm sho'nuf innerested in the outcome. Right now it doesn't look good.
Call me old fashioned but expecting a new purchase, especially at that price point, to operate as specified, is not unreasonable.  

We at IR Defense launch more new tech into the thermal weapon sight space and that comes at a cost. The MK3 is more than a lens cap and a mount.
1. Stadiametric rangefinder which was developed with full BDC and ballistic calc for our military customers. This took alot of time, engineering and dollars which have to be recouped or we cannot continue.
2. Added digital position readouts to the system which also needs software engineers
3. Multiple save locations for reticle locations
What is not in the MK3 is the bug fixes which most of the bugs are just inherent in the advanced technology. If you want th best performing system then you will have to calibrate. The freezing up we find is usually linked to turning the knobs too fast and too much which overloads the system.

We stand behind our product and we go out of our way to make everything in the US. We are not bringing in Chinese parts, we are not Ukrainian or Russian. We are Americans trying to build the best and at a fair price. This is not easy and we cannot always make everyone happy but we do our best and we do it with integrity.

We could cut about 15% out of our costs if we operated like some  of the other companies out there, but we do not. Look out for some videos from us in a few months proving the lengths we go to in order to build our products with quality.

Thank you for your ongoing support for our products and look for some cool new systems in the near future.

Scott

Please elaborate on your statement I highlighted in red. What do your customers receive for paying that extra difference/premium as compared with purchasing from your competition's offerings?

So basically there is no more software support for the MKII unless you fork over $950 for the upgrade.   I have an early MKII with the first firmware release,   unless I pay $950 for the MKIII software I'm stuck with what I've got.   There was some discussion about this type of issue coming up when these units were first released and about taking a chance on a small company etc.  IRD can justify this any way they want but the bottom line is that any continuing development or support for the MKII is done unless you upgrade to the MKIII.

Assuming there is a stable firmware it shouldn't really be an issue right?

WTF

So even if MK2 users upgrade to MK3, they do not get bug fixes? And MK3 users will see the same bugs as MK2 since you did not fix them? Not that many MK2 users were going to plunk down $950, but they would have been shit-pissed to find out they wasted their money and got NOTHING.

So basically what you are are saying is your products will have bugs, and you have no intention of fixing them since "bugs are just inherent in the advanced technology"

If this is your company position I really cannot recommend your product to anyone and I will not be buying anymore more myself. I am appalled you brag about being an American company trying to make the best and you take the position of "Yes our shit has bugs in it, we are not going to fix them, but buy it anyway it is made in America".

That was basically my concern.  

I'm also concerned that there are not two development tracks:

- Feature packs (new cool features) [which we may need to pay for]

- Bug fixes [which should have been fixed, and we shouldn't be paying for]

If turning the knobs too fasts causes the unit to crash or any/all of the odd behavior I've seen... that doesn't bode well.  

As stated previously, I'd settle for a token fee of a few hundred to go toward the costs of firmware development / new features.  However, the concept of buying everything I've already got seems misconceived.

I rented an IR Hunter MKII for 10 days.  I don't know what firmware build the rental unit had, but I noticed some of the "glitches" that others have written about, such as disappearing menus and screen freezes.  I made a call to IRD and to UNV to try and figure out what was wrong.  Both were very helpful.  The primary culprit was low battery voltage (my fault for not understanding the battery meter) and turning the scope knobs too quickly while excited.  Once I put fresh batteries in and slowed down a little bit, I didn't have any additional problems.  I was impressed enough by the performance of  the MkII that I bought one.

I have only had one disappearing menu glitch in the 3 months I've owned my MkII.  At its price point I haven't found anything that compares as a targeting device (I also own a Flir LS-64, which I prefer for scanning/detection).

While I wish Scott's answer had been a little more consumer friendly, I can't jump on the bash IRD bandwagon.  They've produced a device that outperforms their competitors and saved me money in the process.  They've also, in my view, disrupted the market and caused prices to come down on all competitor current generation stuff - things that I couldn't have dreamed of affording prior to their market entry.  I was able to pick up another FLIR handheld for 65% off MSRP, and I think those prices were driven by competition IRD introduced into the market.  That's been good for me.

Hopefully IRD will learn from the "consumer backlash" here and get even better.  Competition is good.

That's a fair point... however, Scott indicated that twirling the knobs too fast can cause the screens to freeze, etc.

So, that would fall into either a firmware update (probably something like lowering the sample rate for the knob inputs), or an unfixable design flaw.

So far, we are not seeing firmware updates, and this unit is a little to expensive, no matter how cool it is, for it not to be patched.

I've been on that kick from day one, as it's a really big deal to plunk down $6000 and have someone basically say to you that it's perfectly fine for it's to be quirky.

This is similar to the issue where their website shows (edit: showed at the time of my purchase) you color reticles, etc., but you go to buy the IR Hunter MK2 and the sales rep tells you that it's only black and white. Of course, this is much more of a problem.

Folks: I want to be clear, I love the basic IR Hunter... When you call IRD and speak to their people at the shop, they are responsive and good folk.

I'm becoming less impressed with the overall corporate strategy of "We're selling you a cost effective solution, so you should be fine with quirky operation and our unwillingness to fix it."  

(That's MY take on what Scott posted above.)

((Also, I want to apologize to UNV, as this is their thread.))

Our 640x480 systems actually had the lower price in class when we launched them and now the market has come down. My comment about the 15% is that we could put in Chinese parts or lower quality components and save 15% which would be money in our pockets but we do not. There are companies out there that do and they charge about the same so they are making more profit and the customer gets a lower quality sight.

Do you ever wonder how someone can offer a $2000 rebate on a product unless they are marking it up a lot. We cannot offer these types of discounts because we don't mark up that much, we put the money into the product, into the components. I would hope that people would respect that.

I hope this elaborates enough to explain.

Thank you,

Scot

The best way to explain the upgrade is that it is a model upgrade and was started only for the 35mm to upgrade to a 60mm. Our distributors asked for other upgrades so we offered them. The upgrade is not a fix for issues with the technology which all thermal technology has issues at some level. Thermal is relatively new to the consumer market and consumers, not trained military personnel, need absolutely perfect performing systems. Our military customers want the performance and tactical features.

Probably 85% of the commercial systems use the same core technology from one company. This is what everyone knows and this has become the standard and the issues with it are not issues but everyone just believes that this is how the technology is. We have brought s new level of tech to the market but what people in this thread are focusing on is the negative differences instead of the positive.

To directly answer one question We fixed the freezing up by adding delays but from a tactical stand point we just do not like the response you get from the turrets so we are opting out on a firmware fix as our initial response on beta testing was negative to the delays. Maybe in the future this can be selectable.

We are coming out with a new product line later this year that will be more consumer driven and we will see in the end which products you the customer will decide to purchase.

Anyone out there that wants to see the difference and get s more detailed explanation I will be at Dallas next week for the SCI show, SHoT in Vegas the next week and also in Louisville in s few months for NRA so please come by and talk in person. I would respect that kind of dialog in person and really appreciate any coments or suggestions. It becomes too difficult to know what to take serious in the forums and what is bashing if you know what I mean by that.

I always had the understanding that MK2's would be supported for firmware updates, but would have to be sent back into the factory.  I was ok with that tradeoff vs the Flir units given the performance advantages the MK2's had. I'm a little puzzled now as it would seem the MK2 is end of life.

Scott: with all due respect as a 30+ year embedded developer and senior technical leader at a fortune 500 electronics company with 7 patents and a (shared) technical Emmy, this is BS. Bugs are never "inherent" (love to see the faces if I use that excuse in a meeting with Time Warner LOL), and if the SW can't keep up with the rotary encoders then the SW ain't very well tested, no?

Just damn.

Part 1 of 3:

This.  I purchased an IR Patrol with this exact understanding after reading up about how IRD would perform firmware maintenance over the life of the product.  As I recall, there were exchanges on this forum about how IRD did not support end-user firmware upgrades (eg some FLIR products) due to ITAR and other concerns; however, when I purchased mine and I asked about future firmware updates I was told that I would have to send the unit back to IRD.  I never suspected it would turn into such a big deal.

Part 2 of 3:

Overall, I've been pretty happy with my IR Patrol M300W, but at the same time I've been hoping for a firmware update to incorporate some of the reticle readout information now included in the MKIII software.  I feel software updates should be free-of-charge (or at minimal cost), since I don't feel that IRD was completely forthright in some of the limitations of the IR Patrol or IR Hunter.  Many folks purchased these units for the 'clip on' capability, but once the unit is in hand it becomes readily apparent that it's not a 'clip on' as is common vernacular.  One does not simply strap either of these units on in front of a day optic and go do work.  First, there is a very large amount of parallax inherent into the system.  Any change in cheek weld will shift the relative position of the day optic reticle on the IRD display drastically (perhaps 20 MOA or so at the extreme FOV through both standard and RDO optics at the default 0.5x clip on magnification? I need to measure it sometime...).  The user can chose to use the IRD digital zoom to help cut down on the relative effect of this parallax (theoretically, 5 MOA @ 2x, 2.5 MOA at 4x, etc), but the user has to have the 'zero center' (which tells the IRD product the digital center of the image for zooming purposes) then set correctly to avoid even further aim error if the user hopes to use any digital magnification setting effectively other than the one used during zeroing.  As you can see, this is a vastly different process than the usual collimated clip-on weapon sight.  Also, I wonder why there is no '1x' digital zoom setting available in clip on mode?

Part 3 of 3:

Basically, I had settled on using the IR Patrol in clip-on mode set at 4x digital zoom during sight in and never using a different magnification after that in order to avoid as many of the parallax and digital zoom errors as I could.  I got a little tired of that routine, and frankly now I simply use the IR Patrol in 'reticle' mode where I turn on the its own reticle and use that in front of a day optic.  If I'm using a standard day optic I'll see dual reticles inside the image (an Aimpoint works very well in this configuration because I can turn off the dot when I don't need it), but I simply recognize the IR Patrol crosshair and call it good.  In this configuration, I avoid all parallax issues (because the crosshair is part of the IR Patrol display) so cheek weld isn't an issue, and I can use any digital zoom I want and not worry about having the center point of the display set correctly.  It seems be a much more robust way to use the IR Patrol in clip on mode if one can handle seeing two reticles in the same FOV.

Give some of these oddities I learned after purchasing the unit, it would be VERY NICE to have some of the digital reticle readout displays of the MKIII to make swapping gun to gun easier, as I anticipated the 'clip on' mode would be when I purchased the unit.

Scott-  Thank you for the offer; I'll do my best to stop by at SHOT and have a brief discussion from a user standpoint.

ETA:  Sorry for all the posts; I guess as the new guy here I'm limited to 2000x characters per post...

Scott, I had two choices when I went for a thermal weapon sight:

- IR Hunter MK2
- FLIR T-70

I went with your company based on the vendor assurance that you had updatable firmware, picture capture, video out, clip-on functionality, etc., and that it all came with the unit. Cost was a secondary concern...

The people that have purchased your units are not going to accept that quirkiness is normal, or that because we are not military customers (that you know of) it's OK for us to have issues with operation.

My take on this is that you are a smaller company still in the startup process.  That you know of the issues in your product and have chosen not to deal with them in order to get to the next stage of development and product launches.  I suspect the base code for the units across the board is generally the same or similar, and you are trying to limit the cost of development time and features (maybe as to not overtax the processor, or something). However, given the solid build of the units and the fact that they will be out there in use for years, the calculated risk that existing customers may be cool related to no bug fixes might be a poor one; on the flip side, if you said "we're working on it," you'd probably get plenty of understanding.

People rarely post all the positive aspects of a product, but they certainly post the negatives. This is not that case with me.  (I just purchased a washing machine and it was nearly impossible to find a useful review as only the disgruntled got online; the happy were not inclined to share.) My posts are not about bashing IRD. HOWEVER, I AM A TOUGH CUSTOMER.  I expect, and rightfully so, that when I plunk down $6000.00 for a technology that is not even remotely new*, that the vendor will fix any flaws or issues in the unit. (* What's new is your firmware...)

Why am I on it about the MK2 (or MK3) not being updated for bug fixes... because I was out in the field the other day and got screwed out of a 5 point buck when the calibration function turned the screen WHITE WITH THE LENS CAP IN FRONT OF THE LENS.  There went that opportunity.  Add to that the screens disappearing, or the unit freezing... well, that's not cool, especially since you know about it.

I understand that you'd rather have a face-to-face, and I'd LOVE to speak with you, but that's not in the cards this year.  This is why I come here to post information, and frankly, it also holds IRD accountable.

I'm sure their are people that love to flame or bash vendors... FLIR/L3/Armasight/etc. groupies even... but that's not the case here.

I'm not here to bash the products, they provide the best image & performance in tough conditions.  Telling me they were factory upgradeable and now changing it is un-acceptable.  I don't expect the Flir treatment (who will next day air a new unit if one pixel isn't working), but having a stable firmware on the scope where menus and letters don't disappear or lock up isn't asking too much.  Especially for those of us who have spent over 10K with the company.  I was told by a company rep back in march that they were working on new firmware for the mk2, I've been patiently waiting.

Dude, the one mistake you are assuming is that everyone purchases the IR Hunter MK2/MK3 for use only as a weapon sight.

Of course we're going to be changing settings, and sometimes quickly.

Tyler you get my email question about that T. Pines 9hz unit?

Looks like an impressive shot.  

Short and sweet, I love it.

That was quiet.

Nice

Neither will this one....

Hey Mr Tyler. Are yo guys out of the office? Emailed a coupla times and tried to call.
Got a coupa questions if ya don't mind.  Thanks.  

Thanks for gettin back with me. Figgered you was out huntin'.
Nuttin wrong with that.  

Another one bites the dust.

May have already been addressed, but are the little numbers above the battery icon the amount of time left? (i.e. 4.5hrs?) Thanks