Bringback ATN Gen 2+ scopes & goggles - Page 7

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bringback ATN Gen 2+ scopes & goggles (Page 7 of 10)

Posted: 10/19/2014 12:42:55 AM EDT

[#1]

Agreed, but lets not confuse Gen2 to anything Gen0/1 single stage. I can attest that they are in different leagues already. I am sure Gen3 is in another league compared to Gen2 as well. But what I found out is that no light = no image, regardless of generation. So Gen3 is just as useless as Gen0 on a dark closed basement without IR light. Get a thermal then.

I think my Gen2 works well enough for the amount of cash I was willing to spend this time around. Maybe next time I'll get a Gen3... we'll see.

When using mine indoors, if there is any hint of light coming from anywhere, even with just the green LED digits on my alarm clock, my scope renders a useable image for me to navigate around inside an otherwise pitch black room; granted, it is not daylight clear as I can't make some of the details, but it is infinitely superior my naked eye and my old T3C-2 scope, where I simply couldn't make a thing out without using IR).

I also think that taking NVD pictures from a camera don't resemble what I actually see. I've tried with my either one of my phones (G2/S4) and they don't capture a thing; but I look through the scope and the image is right there, enough for me to see clearly but the phones are just not capable of seeing it. Perhaps my eyes are pretty good for night vision, but I doubt it... so any scope is going to look worse from a camera than looking through it.

G.

Quote History

Quoted:
You hit the nail on the head here. I can tack a crappy tube and a high spec tube side by side in high light conditions and both will look great. Folks don't realize how easy it is to make a crappy tube look good just by choosing a high light environment. When a fair test is done under dark conditions you will find what separates the good from the bad. Conditions under which photos are taken are everything. I can make a Gen 1 look great if I shoot enough IR light at it. Good review and thanks for sharing.

View Quote

Posted: 10/19/2014 1:36:40 AM EDT

[#2]

Dear Apex,

If you're still following this thread, I would like to ask that you contact me via PM. I have posted the same information on your industry forum board.

I don't normally air "dirty laundry" but I think I'll make an exception in this case.

I recently bought one of the SOC USA PVS-14's from Apex. The unit shipped quickly and was well packaged and padded for shipment. No complaints there. The unit was used with some pretty good evidence of desert sands on the outside and the power knob was slightly bent. But the price was good and the lenses were clean and clear without any noticeable scratches or other defects.

Well, when I dropped in a battery and turned the device on, lo and behold there's a big burn mark pretty much right in the center of the tube. I called Apex right away and asked if I could exchange the one I got for another device. I spoke to a guy named Grant who was pleasant and seemed quite eager to help me out. I emailed him the photo posted below and asked him if he could swap me out for a better device. Grant emailed me back right away and told me that pretty much all the units Apex had left in stock were about as bad as the one I received. So I called Grant the next day and told him I was going to return the unit because of the big burn in the image. He said that was fine.

So off the unit went. A few days later I see the refund post to my credit card minus ten percent. I emailed Apex customer service and here's the response I received:

As per the return policy found on the website and on the back of the blue invoice. We reserve the right to charge a 10% restocking fee on all returns and canceled orders that have been processed. These fees apply unless the item is defective or damaged, you received the wrong item, or the fee is prohibited by law. APEX does not export any product listed on this website. A 10% restocking fee will be charged on all canceled International Orders. The item returned matches the item description off the website (below) The 7 days refers to the return authorization and not the restock fee. Management has determined it is appropriate to charge the restock fee on this product.

View Quote

Here's the description that was posted on the Apex website while the PVS-14's were still in stock:

US Night Vision brand PVS-14A US Security Contractor issue night vision monocular, Generation 3, single ITT tube, USED * Condition good to very good*.

Sold individually.

These "combat veterans" were used in the SWA (Iraq/Afghanistan) Theater of Operation by US Military Contractor SOC-USA.

All the PVS-14A night vision viewers are in good to very good condition.

This monocular will show wear on the exterior from extensive service use.

All the units has been tested in a dark room and proven to function, including IR and focus functions.

There may be small bright spots or dark spots/burns in the field of view. WE CANNOT PREDICT, ADJUST OR HAND SELECT FOR THESE MARKS

The front and rear focus rings will show wear and grime.

The shaft of the ON/OFF switch control may be slightly bent, yet fully functional.

These have no rubber eyecups and the wire that retains the battery cover will be gone.

These PVS-14A's are designed to use a single AA battery and are built to fulfill the most demanding applications.

The versatile Gen 3 USNV PVS-14A features a manual gain control which allows the user to increase or decrease image tube brightness for greater image contrast in varying light conditions.

The unit has a built in red indicator light that is visible to the user (when looking thru the viewer) while the IR light source is turned on.

View Quote

Frankly, if the device had had small bright spots or dark spots/burns in the field of view as listed in the ad on the website, I would have kept the device and been quite happy with it. I don't believe the large burn that was evident in the device I received would likely be described as "small" by anyone. Also, Grant never mentioned I would be charged a 10% return fee nor does it say that the 7-day return period listed in the ad is subject to management review.

I would respectfully like to ask that you reconsider the 10% fee I was changed and refund the entire purchase price, minus shipping. At a minimum, I would like to receive a store credit that I can use on the future order.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Here's the spot/burn in the device I received and returned for your review:

Posted: 10/19/2014 2:04:46 AM EDT

[#3]

WOW, that is really bad; actually, that's how bad the Gen1+ turds I tried before my gen2 were: blemishes all over the place, white spots, etc!!

Surprising to see they did a restocking fee on that... man, sorry to hear. I am glad I didn't purchase from Apex even though it was tempting, now looks like I won't be purchasing from Apex...

Good luck.

G.

Posted: 10/19/2014 9:56:32 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
Dear Apex,

If you're still following this thread, I would like to ask that you contact me via PM. I have posted the same information on your industry forum board.

I don't normally air "dirty laundry" but I think I'll make an exception in this case.

I recently bought one of the SOC USA PVS-14's from Apex. The unit shipped quickly and was well packaged and padded for shipment. No complaints there. The unit was used with some pretty good evidence of desert sands on the outside and the power knob was slightly bent. But the price was good and the lenses were clean and clear without any noticeable scratches or other defects.

Well, when I dropped in a battery and turned the device on, lo and behold there's a big burn mark pretty much right in the center of the tube. I called Apex right away and asked if I could exchange the one I got for another device. I spoke to a guy named Grant who was pleasant and seemed quite eager to help me out. I emailed him the photo posted below and asked him if he could swap me out for a better device. Grant emailed me back right away and told me that pretty much all the units Apex had left in stock were about as bad as the one I received. So I called Grant the next day and told him I was going to return the unit because of the big burn in the image. He said that was fine.

So off the unit went. A few days later I see the refund post to my credit card minus ten percent. I emailed Apex customer service and here's the response I received:

Here's the description that was posted on the Apex website while the PVS-14's were still in stock:

Frankly, if the device had had small bright spots or dark spots/burns in the field of view as listed in the ad on the website, I would have kept the device and been quite happy with it. I don't believe the large burn that was evident in the device I received would likely be described as "small" by anyone. Also, Grant never mentioned I would be charged a 10% return fee nor does it say that the 7-day return period listed in the ad is subject to management review.

I would respectfully like to ask that you reconsider the 10% fee I was changed and refund the entire purchase price, minus shipping. At a minimum, I would like to receive a store credit that I can use on the future order.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Here's the spot/burn in the device I received and returned for your review:

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tokarev/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0815_zps3a3ec82a.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0815_zps3a3ec82a.jpg</a>

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
Dear Apex,

If you're still following this thread, I would like to ask that you contact me via PM. I have posted the same information on your industry forum board.

I don't normally air "dirty laundry" but I think I'll make an exception in this case.

I recently bought one of the SOC USA PVS-14's from Apex. The unit shipped quickly and was well packaged and padded for shipment. No complaints there. The unit was used with some pretty good evidence of desert sands on the outside and the power knob was slightly bent. But the price was good and the lenses were clean and clear without any noticeable scratches or other defects.

Well, when I dropped in a battery and turned the device on, lo and behold there's a big burn mark pretty much right in the center of the tube. I called Apex right away and asked if I could exchange the one I got for another device. I spoke to a guy named Grant who was pleasant and seemed quite eager to help me out. I emailed him the photo posted below and asked him if he could swap me out for a better device. Grant emailed me back right away and told me that pretty much all the units Apex had left in stock were about as bad as the one I received. So I called Grant the next day and told him I was going to return the unit because of the big burn in the image. He said that was fine.

So off the unit went. A few days later I see the refund post to my credit card minus ten percent. I emailed Apex customer service and here's the response I received:

As per the return policy found on the website and on the back of the blue invoice. We reserve the right to charge a 10% restocking fee on all returns and canceled orders that have been processed. These fees apply unless the item is defective or damaged, you received the wrong item, or the fee is prohibited by law. APEX does not export any product listed on this website. A 10% restocking fee will be charged on all canceled International Orders. The item returned matches the item description off the website (below) The 7 days refers to the return authorization and not the restock fee. Management has determined it is appropriate to charge the restock fee on this product.

Here's the description that was posted on the Apex website while the PVS-14's were still in stock:

US Night Vision brand PVS-14A US Security Contractor issue night vision monocular, Generation 3, single ITT tube, USED * Condition good to very good*.

Sold individually.

These "combat veterans" were used in the SWA (Iraq/Afghanistan) Theater of Operation by US Military Contractor SOC-USA.

All the PVS-14A night vision viewers are in good to very good condition.

This monocular will show wear on the exterior from extensive service use.

All the units has been tested in a dark room and proven to function, including IR and focus functions.

There may be small bright spots or dark spots/burns in the field of view. WE CANNOT PREDICT, ADJUST OR HAND SELECT FOR THESE MARKS

The front and rear focus rings will show wear and grime.

The shaft of the ON/OFF switch control may be slightly bent, yet fully functional.

These have no rubber eyecups and the wire that retains the battery cover will be gone.

These PVS-14A's are designed to use a single AA battery and are built to fulfill the most demanding applications.

The versatile Gen 3 USNV PVS-14A features a manual gain control which allows the user to increase or decrease image tube brightness for greater image contrast in varying light conditions.

The unit has a built in red indicator light that is visible to the user (when looking thru the viewer) while the IR light source is turned on.

Frankly, if the device had had small bright spots or dark spots/burns in the field of view as listed in the ad on the website, I would have kept the device and been quite happy with it. I don't believe the large burn that was evident in the device I received would likely be described as "small" by anyone. Also, Grant never mentioned I would be charged a 10% return fee nor does it say that the 7-day return period listed in the ad is subject to management review.

I would respectfully like to ask that you reconsider the 10% fee I was changed and refund the entire purchase price, minus shipping. At a minimum, I would like to receive a store credit that I can use on the future order.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Here's the spot/burn in the device I received and returned for your review:

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tokarev/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0815_zps3a3ec82a.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0815_zps3a3ec82a.jpg</a>

that's pretty fucked up, I was very close to buying one of those 14s from apex when they had them. the product page certainly gave the impression that the 7 day return period was sort of a "no questions asked" risk-free deal...

Posted: 10/19/2014 1:30:39 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
Agreed, but lets not confuse Gen2 to anything Gen0/1 single stage. I can attest that they are in different leagues already. I am sure Gen3 is in another league compared to Gen2 as well. But what I found out is that no light = no image, regardless of generation. So Gen3 is just as useless as Gen0 on a dark closed basement without IR light. Get a thermal then.

I think my Gen2 works well enough for the amount of cash I was willing to spend this time around. Maybe next time I'll get a Gen3... we'll see.

When using mine indoors, if there is any hint of light coming from anywhere, even with just the green LED digits on my alarm clock, my scope renders a useable image for me to navigate around inside an otherwise pitch black room; granted, it is not daylight clear as I can't make some of the details, but it is infinitely superior my naked eye and my old T3C-2 scope, where I simply couldn't make a thing out without using IR).

I also think that taking NVD pictures from a camera don't resemble what I actually see. I've tried with my either one of my phones (G2/S4) and they don't capture a thing; but I look through the scope and the image is right there, enough for me to see clearly but the phones are just not capable of seeing it. Perhaps my eyes are pretty good for night vision, but I doubt it... so any scope is going to look worse from a camera than looking through it.

G.

View Quote

Welcome to arfcom NV.

You seem to be focused on the light amplification capability consideration of the various Gens, and that is indeed quite important. We did a outdoors shoot last night, and if you check your solunar tables, you will see that the moon set a few hours before the sun since we are in a waning last quarter, so it was plenty dark. Using a half dozen relatively high spec (27-30 SNR, 2200+ PCR) Gen3 tubes between the three of us, reducing the gain on the variable devices to minimize the slight scintillation was beneficial. This was not inside a basement. As far as nav'ing within a known environment via alarm clock LEDs, you should be able to do that without any NV; try doing it using "minimal" devices in an unknown environment with slipping, tripping, head bumping, laceration, impalement, etc. hazards.

Another extremely important factor is the resolution. Once you have had the opportunity to look through a high spec Gen3, you will understand that.

I am not meaning to dis your economy purchase, but there really is a big difference with the nicer stuff under the more challenging conditions.

Posted: 10/19/2014 9:27:46 PM EDT

[#6]

Hey murder,
Thanks for the welcome. Yeah, I've been into night vision since the late 80s... pretty interesting stuff. I have to agree 100% with your statements. Truth is, I don't really need any light to navigate in our bedroom so I guess that was not a good test. Now, I would need to find someone local near Ann Arbor MI who owns a Gen 3 and might be willing to let me take a look through it... I am sure I'll want a Gen3 afterwards... maybe I'll ask Santa for one :D heh...

Resolution on mine is okay, definitively much better than the old T3C-2, but I am sure it could be better. (and sure hope so, for a one order of magnitude cost increase!)

I've always been of the though that more gain was the only way to go, but lately I realized that also SNR is quite important too; resolution is also important if you need to identify stuff (which is most of the time)

I don't really know what tube is inside the Night Spirit 2 scope; I've only seen a few digits imprinted on the side and that it runs at 2.56 volts regulated. I wonder if by increasing the voltage to the tube I can push the gain values on the tube?... which would be nice.

I've also thought about building one of those Gen1 cascading tubes for a while, but the size is what's deterred me from doing it.

As for astronomy stuff, well, I've managed to get pretty amazing views of the Orion nebula and Andromeda, and the elusive Triangulum galaxy... and I've managed to see some globular clusters amazingly well... (shame is in green tho :)

After upgrading to Gen2, I am of the thought that people should look for bargain Gen2 before spending 400 bucks on a Gen0 scope. I am sure once I get a Gen3 I'll be like... "yeah, don't waste your money on Gen2, go Gen3!!" heh...

G.

Posted: 10/20/2014 10:04:23 PM EDT

[#7]

Hey guys, could some do a comparison of one of these bring backs and a newer gen3 model? I'd like to see some side by side pics if at all possible.

Posted: 10/21/2014 1:02:11 AM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
Hey guys, could some do a comparison of one of these bring backs and a newer gen3 model? I'd like to see some side by side pics if at all possible.

View Quote

+1, thanks.

G.

Posted: 10/21/2014 1:16:44 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

+1, thanks.

G.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hey guys, could some do a comparison of one of these bring backs and a newer gen3 model? I'd like to see some side by side pics if at all possible.

+1, thanks.

G.

Specifically I'd like to see some outdoor shots with and without illuminators. I know these bring backs aren't going to be as good as a newer pvs14 but im really tempted to buy one of the ps14 monocles.

HERP DERP! I need to read more before I ask questions.
In This it looks like the Atn ps14 falls somewhere in between test subject number 3 and 4. Lots of good info in that thread just non specific to the ps14.

Posted: 10/22/2014 5:22:20 PM EDT

[#10]

So, I've tried my Night Spirit 2 without IR on a pitch dark basement and it looks well, pitch black (no surprises); but if you turn the IR on then you see pretty much everything bright and with clear detail. Remember its an entry level Gen2, but it is a huge step from Gen0/1, seriously. I don't think its worth 1000 bucks, I think 500 was a fair price and all Gen0/1 stuff should be well below 200 bucks... as it serves no real purpose for passive night vision. BTW, my dogs can see the IR on my T3C-2, but they can't see the IR light on my Night Spirit 2, so that should give you an idea if you plan on using Gen1/0 to hunt at night... animals with good eyesight at night can see the IR for Gen1/0 stuff.

As for the provided link, well I am not 100% certain of the accuracy for some of those pictures, especially for then Gen2+ and Gen1 (more like Gen0) My Gen0 T3C-2 with the illuminator ON always rendered 100% clear and bright images (albeit somewhat distorted and a bit fuzzy) within 50 feet.

BTW, how do you post pictures on this board?

Thanks.

G.

Quote History

Quoted:

Specifically I'd like to see some outdoor shots with and without illuminators. I know these bring backs aren't going to be as good as a newer pvs14 but im really tempted to buy one of the ps14 monocles.

HERP DERP! I need to read more before I ask questions.
In This it looks like the Atn ps14 falls somewhere in between test subject number 3 and 4. Lots of good info in that thread just non specific to the ps14.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hey guys, could some do a comparison of one of these bring backs and a newer gen3 model? I'd like to see some side by side pics if at all possible.

+1, thanks.

G.

Specifically I'd like to see some outdoor shots with and without illuminators. I know these bring backs aren't going to be as good as a newer pvs14 but im really tempted to buy one of the ps14 monocles.

HERP DERP! I need to read more before I ask questions.
In This it looks like the Atn ps14 falls somewhere in between test subject number 3 and 4. Lots of good info in that thread just non specific to the ps14.

Posted: 10/22/2014 5:33:17 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
Mine came today.....and its going back...... there are 4 big spots in the center of the tube (they look way bigger not using the camera). To bad as the rest of it is nice.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2zs3dwj.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/5wf01y.jpg

View Quote

Teamafx,

Did you get a refund processed yet through Apex? Did they dock you a 10% fee like they did with me?

Posted: 10/23/2014 9:22:57 PM EDT

[#12]

i ordered the night spirit 2 from apex. Iwas really worried after i ordered and the reports came in of burn marks and restocking fees.

unit arrived today and i am really impressed. no burn marks, ir illum works, everything works great, only issue is the lense cap is missing (small fix, i think i have bikini covers that can be moded and re-purposed).

also no lithium tac light battery insert so AA battery only

i also have a luna optics russian starlight unit that has been remarkably useful and usable, and this gen 2 unit blows it away, obviously not as good as gen 3 units i have been issued in the past like 7b's and 14's

but close to as good, and for personal owned equipment I am very happy

prolly post more after more testing, so far just the initial indoor/ outdoor testing for flaws or issues.

I definitely want the 1x objective and a rhino mount adapter (has a small threaded hole in the side like the pvs14 for rhino clip adapter)

Posted: 10/23/2014 10:41:30 PM EDT

[#13]

Nice!

For the modest price of 399 that you've paid from Apex this unit should "blow everything away" new under 1000 dollars... I've never tried the PVS7 or the PVS14... but for the money and for recreational use this thing is hard to beat!

As suggested earlier in this thread, I purchased the D-300 scope x1 Lens for mine; The part # that I've ordered was NO-C1XG1, there are two versions one for Gen1/2 and one for Gen3. Apparently Gen3 scopes are focused slightly different than Gen1/2 so I went with the Gen1/2 model (hopefully I don't need to exchange). I paid ~82 bucks shipped and I should have it sometime next week... It is supposed to have 40deg FOV.

I also modified the old T3C-2 scope lens, a fairly nice Helios 100mm f/2.0, to be coupled with 1.25inch eyepieces so now can hook it up to the scope with the C-mount to 1.25 adapter, and I can also insert my APO Barlow lens for a whopping 200mm focal length F4 lens... gives it like x12 magnification... which is great for stargazing. (Ironically, I found out that the Helios lens on the T3C-2 is actually far more expensive than what I paid for the whole scope back in 96!!)

G.

Quote History

Quoted:
i ordered the night spirit 2 from apex. Iwas really worried after i ordered and the reports came in of burn marks and restocking fees.
.
.
.

View Quote

Posted: 10/24/2014 3:12:54 AM EDT

[#14]

Here is my Night Spirit 2... alongside the now defunct T3C-2 and the Helios 100mm F2.0 lens. The metal tube is a barlow 2X lens and the small ring is a C-mount adapter for 1.25 telescope eyepiece...

With the 2X barlow and the 100mm Helios it looks like this... (12X magnification which is pretty darn good)

G.

Posted: 10/25/2014 3:29:38 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
Can anyone identify the adapter arm on this rig? I mocked up a helmet rig tonight, and the pvs14 j-arm puts the eyepiece just a bit too close, even with the rhino mount extended all the way out.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5335/9917499893_6bbfecc5e0_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3669/9917366536_f6e93e015f_c.jpg

View Quote

Can anyone I.D. the illuminator on top? Thanks.

Posted: 10/25/2014 7:56:32 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:

Can anyone I.D. the illuminator on top? Thanks.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can anyone identify the adapter arm on this rig? I mocked up a helmet rig tonight, and the pvs14 j-arm puts the eyepiece just a bit too close, even with the rhino mount extended all the way out.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5335/9917499893_6bbfecc5e0_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3669/9917366536_f6e93e015f_c.jpg

Can anyone I.D. the illuminator on top? Thanks.

The one in front is a Surefire helmet light with the Helmet Light MOLLE Clip
The one in back is an MS2000 strobe.

Posted: 10/25/2014 10:56:44 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:As suggested earlier in this thread, I purchased the D-300 scope x1 Lens for mine; The part # that I've ordered was NO-C1XG1, there are two versions one for Gen1/2 and one for Gen3. Apparently Gen3 scopes are focused slightly different than Gen1/2 so I went with the Gen1/2 model (hopefully I don't need to exchange). I paid ~82 bucks shipped and I should have it sometime next week... It is supposed to have 40deg FOV.

View Quote

I apologize for not posting up sooner. I received my D-300 objective lens (also NO-C1XG1) and it's a no-go. The threaded diameter is a couple of mm too large for the Night Spirit, making it not a C-mount lens. In screwing around with it, the focal plane distance is also way off (far shorter), making an adapter an impossibility. Apparently the information I had read on the subject was incorrect.

I bought a 1" format 25mm Canon lens in the mean time to get by until I find something better. It works pretty well - plenty clear and the variable aperture is somewhat handy. Having a 25mm focal length, it's a bit 'demagnified', which makes viewing with both eyes a bit awkward in some situations. I'm not sure what would be better, but there isn't a huge selection of focal lengths to choose from it seems. It's also larger than the night optics lens, but still far smaller and lighter than the original 3x.

Sorry again for the bad news, hopefully you can process a refund from wherever you ordered it from.

Posted: 10/27/2014 12:26:09 AM EDT

[#18]

Hey, thanks for the heads up. I just cancel the order; perhaps I should give the gen3 lens a try? These are focused slightly different...

Also, FYI, there is a goggle kit with a x1 lens for the NightSpirit2 available at some retailers, so I might get that.

I think sticking anything above f1.2 on this scope you might as well use a Gen1 (maybe not quite... but you get the idea) I've farted with a focal reducer for the stock lens but it is as wide as you can see through it; the max I got out it was marginally better than no focal reducer but big vignetting around the edges... I've been scouting feebay for a f1.0 or f0.95 lens, which should give another 7% more light to the sensor making it even better for dark areas.

Although it has hight f-stop, the old T3C-2 Helios lens seems like a much better lens than the one on the NSP2; its a lot crisper when attached to the scope, by far; unfortunately its a 100mm so it gives like 6X magnification (and we want 1X...)

Again, thanks for the heads up!!

G.

Quote History

Quoted:

View Quote

Posted: 10/27/2014 12:24:45 PM EDT

[#19]

I spoke with a rep at Night Optics - it sounds like neither the Gen 1/2 or Gen 3 objective lenses are C-mount.

I also spoke with a rep at Armasight (being that the Night Spirit appears to be the same as their Avenger scope) - they no longer carry any 1x options either.

From what I understand, ENVIS objectives are C-mount, but I'm not sure one of those is justifiable given the cost of the Night Spirit (if you could even find one).

The 25mm Canon lens I'm using now is an f1.4. I don't find it to be any dimmer than the original f1.2 50mm though. It's a little finicky in regard to focusing distance - it's ~3ft when wide open, but closes to less than a foot when stopped down. It's not that much of a hindrance though - if working that close with any IR on, stopping down also aids in cutting down the bloom. Still, I'm looking for alternatives.

Here's how I have mine setup at the moment:

Posted: 10/27/2014 12:33:52 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
I spoke with a rep at Night Optics - it sounds like neither the Gen 1/2 or Gen 3 objective lenses are C-mount.

I also spoke with a rep at Armasight (being that the Night Spirit appears to be the same as their Avenger scope) - they no longer carry any 1x options either.

From what I understand, ENVIS objectives are C-mount, but I'm not sure one of those is justifiable given the cost of the Night Spirit (if you could even find one).

The 25mm Canon lens I'm using now is an f1.4. I don't find it to be any dimmer than the original f1.2 50mm though. It's a little finicky in regard to focusing distance - it's ~3ft when wide open, but closes to less than a foot when stopped down. It's not that much of a hindrance though - if working that close with any IR on, stopping down also aids in cutting down the bloom. Still, I'm looking for alternatives.

Here's how I have mine setup at the moment:

http://www.smokedtires.com/forums/NV/10272014/Helmet_1.jpg

View Quote

Any issues with how close it is against your eye? Mine is right against my eye even with the adapter slid all the way out.

Edit: I see that spacer block on your helmet so that is probably helping.

Posted: 10/27/2014 1:15:52 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:Any issues with how close it is against your eye? Mine is right against my eye even with the adapter slid all the way out.

Edit: I see that spacer block on your helmet so that is probably helping.

View Quote

The spacer block helps a lot. It's very close, but I don't find it uncomfortable. I don't have any specs, but it seems like the Night Spirit's eye relief isn't particularly generous.

However, I'm not familiar with how something like a PVS14 is supposed to be positioned, so it could just be a lack of experience talking too.

Posted: 10/27/2014 1:18:41 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:

The spacer block helps a lot. It's very close, but I don't find it uncomfortable. I don't have any specs, but it seems like the Night Spirit's eye relief isn't particularly generous.

However, I'm not familiar with how something like a PVS14 is supposed to be positioned, so it could just be a lack of experience talking too.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:Any issues with how close it is against your eye? Mine is right against my eye even with the adapter slid all the way out.

Edit: I see that spacer block on your helmet so that is probably helping.

The spacer block helps a lot. It's very close, but I don't find it uncomfortable. I don't have any specs, but it seems like the Night Spirit's eye relief isn't particularly generous.

However, I'm not familiar with how something like a PVS14 is supposed to be positioned, so it could just be a lack of experience talking too.

My PVS14 has a good bit of adjustment. Too close to the eye can make it fog up so I like some air movement in there plus If I bump into something I won't get poked in the eye.

Posted: 10/27/2014 3:33:02 PM EDT

[#23]

I've seen some PVS-5 f1.0 lenses but these don't look like C-mount to me... might look into the ENVIS objective lenses... shame because this little cheap guy really likes my CCTV f0.86 aspherical lens, unfortunately it is meant for a 1/3 ccd sensor so there is a huge vignette around... I might just live with it at 3X for now.

Your helmet setup looks great!

As for being too close, yeah, I can see why... another more involved solution might be to replace the optical inverter with a compact fiberoptic inverter and then use a shorter eyepiece... I think the old ATN NV-14 (the pvs-14 lookalike) has the shorter eyepiece, but identical body (looks like I think). the IIT tube might be useful on a Gen1 monocular that has a more compact design the NSP2... most Russian stuff uses the same frame for different kinds of tubes... maybe gut a Spark Core and put this tube instead... although the Spark Core has crap optics as well not F1.2 IIRC.

G.

Posted: 10/27/2014 7:26:45 PM EDT

[#24]

I wasn't at home to reject the lens package so I have to send the item back. I already got an RMA so hopefully it all goes well.

This is the kit I am eyeing... perhaps a tad too expensive...

http://nightvisionsales.com/atn-goggle-kit-for-night-spirit-acmnnsptgk.html

G.

Posted: 10/27/2014 10:22:01 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
I wasn't at home to reject the lens package so I have to send the item back. I already got an RMA so hopefully it all goes well.

This is the kit I am eyeing... perhaps a tad too expensive...

http://nightvisionsales.com/atn-goggle-kit-for-night-spirit-acmnnsptgk.html

G.

View Quote

I've seen the head mount kits around, but I just don't know about that kind of money for basically just the lens. That skull crusher doesn't look very useful (especially since I have a helmet rig I've been working on).

They made a rail mount with 1x kit too, which I would be more interested in. I can't seem to find any in stock though. The PVS14 mount puts the Night Spirit a bit off center, plus it isn't terribly secure on the 1/2-20.

Posted: 10/27/2014 10:47:19 PM EDT

[#26]

I did notice there is a rail mount option too; but all things consider: 200 bucks for an f1.2 25mm lens seems pretty decent, at least compared to the feeBay prices in which those tend to go.

ATN used to have some spare lenses that they sold for dirt cheap, not sure if anyone on this thread has one. I am also sure the NM-14 uses the same mount type so it would be interesting to see if these actually match.

G.

Quote History

Quoted:

I've seen the head mount kits around, but I just don't know about that kind of money for basically just the lens. That skull crusher doesn't look very useful (especially since I have a helmet rig I've been working on).

They made a rail mount with 1x kit too, which I would be more interested in. I can't seem to find any in stock though. The PVS14 mount puts the Night Spirit a bit off center, plus it isn't terribly secure on the 1/2-20.

View Quote

Posted: 10/28/2014 12:01:07 AM EDT

[#27]

How to increase the eyepiece apparent FOV and at the same time shorten the ATN NSP2 length by a few mm...

Okay, as the post reads: I was a bit disappointed with the eyepiece apparent narrow field of view (the actual image was fine) compared to my old T3C-2 scope. So, I decided to tinker with spacers on the lenses and whatnot but it turns out it was super easy to change the apparent FOV by just adjusting the optical inverter assembly.

First unscrew the eyepiece assembly; the big plastic is just a threaded lockring, just get it out until is fully uncscrewed then the optical eyepiece assembly pops out. Its press-fit in there with a rubber o-ring, so it won't come off.

This is how it looks with the eyepiece assembly out.

This is a good time now to clean dark blemishes, most of the crap tends to pile up here... so clean with compressed air only. (but at enough distance...)

So, the back end has this tube that sticks out with a small lens on it and its threaded. This is the optical inverter (since this unit doesn't have a fiber optic inverter, and this is the culprit for whatever little distortion you see)

Okay, now there is a lock ring for the optical inverter assembly. Just use a small hex to grab one of the holes and with a hint of effort it should free up the optical inverter assembly.

Posted: 10/28/2014 12:02:28 AM EDT

[#28]

<continued>

With the lock-ring lose, you wan to rotate the optical assembly counterclockwise (CCW) until the edges of the tube match the edge of the actual eyepiece FOV. To match, power the unit on a dark room and look for the edges of the tube and the max FOV of the eyepiece. Its hard to explain in words but its actually really simple once you look through the eyepiece without the Night Spirit attached to it. You'll see the FOV is huge compared to the little tiny green screen you see when you look through it. The idea is to make the phosphor screen as big as the eyepiece allows for. Once you are happy with your results, make sure you set the lock-ring again and reassemble the unit by pressing the eyepiece into the night spirit chassis. It should pop in, then secure the lock ring and you're done.

Since now you've moved the optical block forward (into the tube) your diopter adjustment will have to move accordingly as well and that will shorten the NSP2 by a few mm. Now, 3mm might not be much, but for those who have the helmet mount it might be the difference between too tight to just okay.

Hope this helps.

G.

Posted: 10/28/2014 9:33:12 AM EDT

[#29]

Thanks for that. I'll give it a try.

Posted: 10/28/2014 10:51:10 AM EDT

[#30]

I adjusted the inverter per gman's instructions. It's not a huge change, but it is noticeable. And it does shorten the assembly a few mm. Again, not huge, but it could make the difference for some.

It actually seemed to help a little bit with blending the images between my eyes (through the monocular and my other, naked eye). It's still not perfect (back to the 25mm issue), but it's a bit better.

Thanks for the write up.

Posted: 10/28/2014 10:55:48 AM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
I did notice there is a rail mount option too; but all things consider: 200 bucks for an f1.2 25mm lens seems pretty decent, at least compared to the feeBay prices in which those tend to go.

ATN used to have some spare lenses that they sold for dirt cheap, not sure if anyone on this thread has one. I am also sure the NM-14 uses the same mount type so it would be interesting to see if these actually match.

G.

View Quote

I agree - it's not a bad price for the glass (provided it's decent). I meant it more that it might not be worth it to me, in proportion to the cost of the Night Spirit (and my intended usage for it).

Posted: 10/28/2014 11:11:30 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
I adjusted the inverter per gman's instructions. It's not a huge change, but it is noticeable. And it does shorten the assembly a few mm. Again, not huge, but it could make the difference for some.

It actually seemed to help a little bit with blending the images between my eyes (through the monocular and my other, naked eye). It's still not perfect (back to the 25mm issue), but it's a bit better.

Thanks for the write up.

View Quote

You're welcome. Glad it worked. The NSP2 might be an entry level Gen2 NVD, but its decent enough to warrant some tinkering with it... :)

I'll probably go your route and get a more reasonable f1.4 lens for the time being... After reading your comments I am thinking of trying a 35mm focal length lens instead, as opposed to a 25mm... I've been thinking that perhaps the ocular eyepiece also plays a role on how you perceive the image?

G.

Posted: 10/28/2014 12:39:45 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'll probably go your route and get a more reasonable f1.4 lens for the time being... After reading your comments I am thinking of trying a 35mm focal length lens instead, as opposed to a 25mm... I've been thinking that perhaps the ocular eyepiece also plays a role on how you perceive the image?

G.

View Quote

A 35mm might be a bit too much magnification, but it couldn't hurt to try. The 25mm is completely useable, don't get me wrong. Ideally, I think something like a 27-28mm is probably all it would take to get things aligned. However that's not a common focal length (or at least I haven't seen any yet).

The nice thing about lenses in the f1.4 range is their cost, so it's inexpensive to experiment. My Canon was only $35. Some of them do seem to get bidded up on eBay by the micro 4/3rds guys, but it's relatively easy to pick one up cheaply.

Posted: 10/28/2014 1:00:26 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
A 35mm might be a bit too much magnification, but it couldn't hurt to try. The 25mm is completely useable, don't get me wrong. Ideally, I think something like a 27-28mm is probably all it would take to get things aligned. However that's not a common focal length (or at least I haven't seen any yet).

The nice thing about lenses in the f1.4 range is their cost, so it's inexpensive to experiment. My Canon was only $35. Some of them do seem to get bidded up on eBay by the micro 4/3rds guys, but it's relatively easy to pick one up cheaply.

View Quote

Yeah, 28mm sounds like something you could get out of a zoom lens, but not from a fixed length...

So, one question: what kind of sensor size do you need for this to work? The I2 tube is like 17mm diameter but most of these 25 or 35 mm lenses in the F1.4 are like for 1/3" CCD... so not sure how to actually look for something decent that will work.

Any advice welcome.

Thanks.
G.

Posted: 10/28/2014 1:09:24 PM EDT

[#35]

Found this:

http://www.amazon.com/RainbowImaging-Adapter-camera-Panasonic-Olympus/dp/B004WIMB9E/

Are those any good?

G.

Posted: 10/28/2014 1:39:25 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:Yeah, 28mm sounds like something you could get out of a zoom lens, but not from a fixed length...

So, one question: what kind of sensor size do you need for this to work? The I2 tube is like 17mm diameter but most of these 25 or 35 mm lenses in the F1.4 are like for 1/3" CCD... so not sure how to actually look for something decent that will work.

Any advice welcome.

Thanks.
G.

View Quote

A 1" format CCTV lens projects a ~17mm image circle. That's what I'm using now and I get a completely clear picture, edge to edge. Anything less and you'll risk some edge dimming.

1" is the largest of the C Mount 'sizes'. As you've found, a lot of the inexpensive lenses are 1/2 or 1/3". There are also 2/3" ones.

The Rainbow lens you linked to is 1/2" format, from what I remember reading during my searches.

Posted: 10/28/2014 2:01:40 PM EDT

[#37]

Okay, so I'll search for a 1" CCD lens... any suggestions? or brand?

G.

Quote History

Quoted:

A 1" format CCTV lens projects a ~17mm image circle. That's what I'm using now and I get a completely clear picture, edge to edge. Anything less and you'll risk some edge dimming.

1" is the largest of the C Mount 'sizes'. As you've found, a lot of the inexpensive lenses are 1/2 or 1/3". There are also 2/3" ones.

The Rainbow lens you linked to is 1/2" format, from what I remember reading during my searches.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:Yeah, 28mm sounds like something you could get out of a zoom lens, but not from a fixed length...

So, one question: what kind of sensor size do you need for this to work? The I2 tube is like 17mm diameter but most of these 25 or 35 mm lenses in the F1.4 are like for 1/3" CCD... so not sure how to actually look for something decent that will work.

Any advice welcome.

Thanks.
G.

A 1" format CCTV lens projects a ~17mm image circle. That's what I'm using now and I get a completely clear picture, edge to edge. Anything less and you'll risk some edge dimming.

1" is the largest of the C Mount 'sizes'. As you've found, a lot of the inexpensive lenses are 1/2 or 1/3". There are also 2/3" ones.

The Rainbow lens you linked to is 1/2" format, from what I remember reading during my searches.

Posted: 10/28/2014 2:34:18 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
Okay, so I'll search for a 1" CCD lens... any suggestions? or brand?

G.

View Quote

Not really, unfortunately. I just periodically do searches on eBay. Most of the stuff will be older, so you'll see a lot of unknown (at least to me) names. I tried to snag a Navitar / D O Industries lens last week, but lost out.

You probably already know, but you'll need to grab one of those 5mm aluminum CS to C spacers that were discussed earlier. They're super cheap on Amazon though.

Posted: 10/28/2014 2:54:45 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:

Not really, unfortunately. I just periodically do searches on eBay. Most of the stuff will be older, so you'll see a lot of unknown (at least to me) names. I tried to snag a Navitar / D O Industries lens last week, but lost out.

You probably already know, but you'll need to grab one of those 5mm aluminum CS to C spacers that were discussed earlier. They're super cheap on Amazon though.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Okay, so I'll search for a 1" CCD lens... any suggestions? or brand?

G.

Not really, unfortunately. I just periodically do searches on eBay. Most of the stuff will be older, so you'll see a lot of unknown (at least to me) names. I tried to snag a Navitar / D O Industries lens last week, but lost out.

You probably already know, but you'll need to grab one of those 5mm aluminum CS to C spacers that were discussed earlier. They're super cheap on Amazon though.

I didn't know until I read this thread... but think I might already have one of those lying around in the telescope optics box... :)

I'll keep searching, and perhaps I'll get the x1 goggle kit for it... :)

G.

Posted: 10/30/2014 12:13:30 AM EDT

[#40]

So I finally got courageous and took the NSP2 completely apart. I was itching to see what tube was inside and this is what I found out:

It has a 2.56 volt regulated PSU on the unit, thats the simple stuff, but the tube looks like it has the markings removed (sanded down) the only visible markings are 03010

and here is a picture with the PSU exposed...

I am not 100% sure what tube it is, but it looks like an EPM66G

http://www.ekran-os.ru/epm66geng

However, there are like 6 different variants of the EPM66G and I am not sure if there is any way to identify the tube without the actual lettering that was erased.

Any help would be appreciated.

G.

Posted: 10/30/2014 12:34:09 PM EDT

[#41]

Here's an interesting thread about the Night Spirit and its tube:

http://www.nightvisionforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6800

Based on the properties of the tube (glass output window, being 22,5mm tall, a diameter of 43mm, pvc pot, flying leads, a groove), and the hand-written markings in Russian, it could only be a Katod EPM-44G A/B, Katod EPM105G-00-22 or Ekran EPM-66G|G2|GK . According to the minimal specs of these manufacturers, the SNR and resolution would be 17 - 51 for a tube by Katod and 18 - 45 for one by Ekran.

Posted: 10/30/2014 1:15:40 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
Here's an interesting thread about the Night Spirit and its tube:

http://www.nightvisionforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6800

Based on the properties of the tube (glass output window, being 22,5mm tall, a diameter of 43mm, pvc pot, flying leads, a groove), and the hand-written markings in Russian, it could only be a Katod EPM-44G A/B, Katod EPM105G-00-22 or Ekran EPM-66G|G2|GK . According to the minimal specs of these manufacturers, the SNR and resolution would be 17 - 51 for a tube by Katod and 18 - 45 for one by Ekran.

View Quote

Thank you; unfortunately, I don't have permission to see the pictures on that forum. I've tried registering a while ago but it wouldn't let me register... do I need to talk to someone to get registered or get invited?

I have another question, what does it mean by having a PVC pot? pots are adjustable, so are there any adjustments that could be done to these tubes? I mean, more gain should be as simple as cranking the MCP voltage a few kV up... :)

If i had the deep pockets I would take the tube apart just to find out how to crank the gain up, which I am sure it could be done...

G.

Posted: 10/30/2014 4:32:55 PM EDT

[#43]

the "pot" is the plastic casing of the tube unit. its made of pvc plastic.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 10/30/2014 6:22:40 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
the "pot" is the plastic casing of the tube unit. its made of pvc plastic.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

View Quote

Thanks. Is there a way to crack the "pot" open on these?

G.

Posted: 10/30/2014 6:35:30 PM EDT

[#45]

Found these lenses, they are rated 25mm, F1.4 for a 1" CCD sensor.

Ricoh F1.4 25mm lenses C-mount

I've tried a machine vision Fujinon F1.4 16mm we had at work and it seems just as bright as the stock x3 F1.2 lens...

The stock lens is ~45mm aperture and f/1.2, that yields about 56mm focal length; well, given the optics on the scope I think its more like a x2 than a x3, but thats besides the point.

The original lens is a Gaussian Double lens, similar to the high end Noctilux, except not as compact and probably atrocious for color aberration...

G.

Posted: 10/31/2014 2:18:37 AM EDT

[#46]

Took 5 hours to understand the optical inverter lens assembly and I managed to get the NSP2 100% distortion free, and it now is a X3 lens on the objective... and the diopters now work as they should. Downside is that by doing this I lengthened the NSP2 back by 3mm...

I am not an optics expert, but it seems to me that the optical inverter had at least one lens placed the wrong way, thus creating the spherical distortion (and the somewhat de-magnified image) I could be wrong of course, but I like the way I left the inverter on mine much better... there is no fisheye effect on the edges anymore and the ocular now has a much wider FOV as well.

So, if you are interested in getting the best out of your NSP2 then let me preface by saying this was not an easy procedure, so try this at your own risk...

You need two lint free glass cleaning cloths, (chamois or something like that)
I used Stoner Invisible glass to clean all lenses.
Jeweler screw driver.
I recommend using a piece of plastic to position the lenses.
I also recommend using latex/nitryl gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints all over.

To get to the inverter you first need to unscrew the focus assembly: To do that simply grab the diopter-adjustment section lock-ring and start rotating it counterclockwise until it starts to come off. Then unscrew it.
So, you have to do this because the inverter only comes out this way (you can't thread it out from the tube side)
Now, take the lower section out by unscrewing the big plastic lockring that holds the ocular to the chassis.
To get the inverter out, loosen the lockring that secures it to the ocular assembly and then rotate it clockwise until it fully unscrews.

<continues...>

Posted: 10/31/2014 2:19:09 AM EDT

[#47]

<continued>

Once the inverter is out, you're ready to start the hard part:

So, the inverter is made out of 5 lenses: (I don't know exactly how this lens configuration is called)

Starting from the small (thin) side this is how its built: I suggest you take notes down on how yours is actually put together (which might be different) right after you take it apart; that way you know how to put it back to stock if you don't like this mod.

A number denotes a lens:

1)convex-planar, spacer, iris washer, spacer, 2)convex-planar, spacer with a groove; now we get to the thick part of the barrel. 3)positive meniscus coupled with a 4)convex-planar, spacer, and last one is a 5)convex-planar.

So this is the orientation of the lenses that I used on mine to remove all distortion and increase the ocular FOV:

With the small (thin) end sitting on the table...

1)convex planar: with the convex side pointing up, planar side flush with the small end of the inverter.
Put the spacer
Put the iris washer. (if you decide to remove the iris washer the image will look blurry when looking at an angle from the ocular)
Put the 2nd spacer
2)convex planar: convex side pointing up, planar side looking at lens #1
Spacer with groove pointing down
3)positive meniscus: concave side pointing up
4)convex-planar: convex side pointing up, sits right on the edges of lens #3
Put the last spacer
5)convex-planar, convex side up (this is what actually makes the mod, originally this lens was convex side facing down, by creating an opposite distortion to the fisheye)
tighten the lock-ring.

Reassemble into the lower eyepiece assembly and then put the whole thing back together. Go to a dark room and test the unit: enjoy a distortion free NSP2

G.

Posted: 10/31/2014 3:17:47 AM EDT

[#48]

Found and purchased a 1" sensor 25mm F1.3 lens for 28 bucks, I should have it next week.

Posted: 11/5/2014 4:45:03 AM EDT

[#49]

Well, I didn't end up liking the inverter mod after a few days of using it (weird focus artifacts...) so I undid it and opted for adding an extra convex-planar lens between the inverter and the ocular. Doing that not only resolved the issue with the spherical distortion but actually made the 25mm lens zoom equal to my other eye so no more unzoomed images... and doing this I was also able to shorten the scope, but this time shortened almost all the way to its shortest possible length...

Some pics... the lens in question is an Ultrak F1.3 made in Japan and it was brand spanking new; by the auction I thought it was used... This particular model "had" an auto-iris (I had to gut the autoiris mechanics prior to using it...) and the lens is now a lot lighter too!! It is somewhat brighter than the stock lens and requires a lot less tinkering with the focus dial... all I need now is a skullcrusher and I am in business!!

G.

Posted: 11/5/2014 9:33:44 AM EDT

[#50]

Those of you that have picked up the ps14, worth it? I'm really on the fence.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bringback ATN Gen 2+ scopes & goggles (Page 7 of 10)

Armory » NV General Discussions

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us