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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:54:54 AM EDT
[#1]
I have used ATN 3X power, gen 2+ (can't remember the model) and PVS-14. PVS is, obviously, better on clarity and smaller/lighter in package and have options on mounting, either helmet or on your rifle. ATN gen 2+ (that I had) is heavier, rifle mounted or hand-held; its clarity is surprisingly good. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:30:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Night vision has it's place, just as FLIR. Two tools with entirely different uses and abilities to see into the darkness. It depends on the need and application.
NV, based on the quality of the tube and glass from a gen 1-to gen 3 have a lot to do with brightness and clarity you'll able to see in the element. Along with the distance. Gen1 (to me) is basically bottom end. Low brightness and the field of view minimal. Having spotty or unclear blotchy areas in the field of view is likely. Gen2 are generally (almost) twice as bright and more clear with a much cleaner field of view. Gen3 is of the highest light gathering quality, having the ability to pull in even more light in extremely low-vis situations. The FOV being clear as if looking through some of the "finer" optics Essentially you get what you pay for. The more you pay, the better the equipment generally. What ever you have spent in your SHTF rifle, and figuratively speaking, spend twice that at a minimum for your night vision. Even though more comes to play after the initial purchase of NV. I compare night vision brightness, as an example, to sun glasses. Cheap shades when fishing, do shade your eyes when looking at the water, but they mainly remove glare and tone/tint things down. Whereas a pair of good "quality" sunglasses allow you to actually see into the water, having the ability to clearly see the fish and what's underneath. Someone who likes fishing knows exactly my point. I thought to also add, Weapon lights have their place. If you need one to see something at distance, whatever it is you want to see, can also see you. BANG |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:31:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
If size and weight is not an issue get a Zeiss Fero. For less than $600 you get a German mil surplus that works very well. One of the sponsors (Copes) has a thread selling them. Really worth it. Holy Cow, that thing looks like it weighs a ton! If you plan on running around at night, night vision is pretty much essential. Gen2+ is about the minimal that you should get, simply because the price has come down pretty significantly. Gen1 works about as well as your own eyes without IR illumination, but it isn't completely worthless and costs almost nothing, so it can give you some idea of what NVG can do for you without breaking the bank (usually less than $100 on ebay). Visit the night vision forum and stay away from ATN. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 10:34:42 PM EDT
[#4]
Really, REALLY dont bother with Gen 1.
As far as usefulness, depends on what you plan for it, and understand limits. Hog hunting? Helpful SHTF? Helpful HD? Helpful. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:00:48 AM EDT
[#5]
During desert storm i had a thing called a starlight scope. It was completely useless. Well, unless you enjoyed looking at a green blotch then it was amazing.
But as far as letting you see anything at night fugetaboutit. It had to be generation 0. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:11:05 AM EDT
[#6]
gen 3 NV is a must have fun toy!
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:45:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Please explain the performance differences between the various generations.
I've been looking at an ATN MK410 which can be had for about 500 bucks, or maybe a bit less for a lightly used one. It's gen 1. But it's a reasonable size, not too much for a rifle. I haven't decided to buy it, primarily because I want to know how much performance I gain by stepping up to newer technologies. I want to be reasonably well informed when I make my decision. I've never been in a position to look through anything BUT gen 1 equipment so far. Certainly you can see people at a distance and know they're people, but the ones I've tried weren't good enough for facial recognition beyond maybe 100-ish yards or so. What are the benefits and drawbacks of each generation compared to the other generations? Obviously the main drawback of the newer generations will be COST. But performance? Limitations? |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:37:11 AM EDT
[#8]
gen1
gen 3 mx 10160 |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:41:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If size and weight is not an issue get a Zeiss Fero. For less than $600 you get a German mil surplus that works very well. One of the sponsors (Copes) has a thread selling them. Really worth it. Holy Cow, that thing looks like it weighs a ton! If you plan on running around at night, night vision is pretty much essential. Gen2+ is about the minimal that you should get, simply because the price has come down pretty significantly. Gen1 works about as well as your own eyes without IR illumination, but it isn't completely worthless and costs almost nothing, so it can give you some idea of what NVG can do for you without breaking the bank (usually less than $100 on ebay). Visit the night vision forum and stay away from ATN. Several folks who compared the Zeiss Fero vs. Gen 2 like the PVS-4 said the Zeiss came out ahead, mostly if you add the price to the equation. The Zeiss scope uses cascaded tubes so its performance is far superior than the traditional Gen 1s. There are several threads about it here in ARFCOM. I also recommend avoiding ATN. Got one a while back that failed in a about three months even with a light use in my PCP air rifle. Sent back to ATN under warranty and they replaced the tube with some trash one that has more stains than anything I ever saw. And this after keeping it for a couple months. Unreliable products and horrible customer service. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 8:31:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Essential for SHTF. Keep it in the closet with my plate carrier.
Plus it's fun to wander drunk in the woods with |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 8:52:03 PM EDT
[#11]
If size and weight is not an issue get a Zeiss Fero. For less than $600 you get a German mil surplus that works very well. One of the sponsors (Copes) has a thread selling them. Really worth it. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 9:27:28 PM EDT
[#12]
I voted Gen 3 or don't bother. The military spoiled me though, I can't afford it personally and know I wouldn't be happy with anything less than at least a solid Gen 2+ minimum. Gen 1 is IMO near useless, at least try and find the best Gen 2 value at the ~$1k price point.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:06:35 PM EDT
[#13]
I am set on getting a PVS14 one day. The ability to see in near total if not total darkness is a ability I would love to have should the shit hit the fan.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:28:34 PM EDT
[#14]
If you are a predator or vermin hunter, it basically increases your hunting time 100%, not to mention the quarry is most active nocturnally.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:51:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please explain the performance differences between the various generations. I've been looking at an ATN MK410 which can be had for about 500 bucks, or maybe a bit less for a lightly used one. It's gen 1. But it's a reasonable size, not too much for a rifle. I haven't decided to buy it, primarily because I want to know how much performance I gain by stepping up to newer technologies. I want to be reasonably well informed when I make my decision. I've never been in a position to look through anything BUT gen 1 equipment so far. Certainly you can see people at a distance and know they're people, but the ones I've tried weren't good enough for facial recognition beyond maybe 100-ish yards or so. What are the benefits and drawbacks of each generation compared to the other generations? Obviously the main drawback of the newer generations will be COST. But performance? Limitations? Read http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/329958_.html It does a nice job of comparing generations. I find gen 1 worse than useless. Gen 2+ is useful. Gen 3+ is startlingly fantastic. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:07:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Gen 2+ or gen 3. You will likely not find either in a riflescope for your budget, buy you can get a handheld unit in your budget.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:12:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
What says the hive? Is night vision gear a fun toy to play with, without much practical use for a civilian, or a must have? For me, 90% toy. 10% useful. Maybe 80/20 if I put on my justification hat. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:23:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Is night vision gear a fun toy to play with, without much practical use for a civilian, or a must have? For me it makes a (sort of) job fun. Use mine to control feral hogs that could, and have, cause $10,000 - $15,000 crop damage a year. Mine is ATN gen2+ and have had no issues with performance or cust serv. Apparently YMMV with ATN according to some of the other folks on this site. Guess I got lucky. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:46:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Aside from hunting etc I wear my during power outages after hurricanes.
Its a must have, half of your life is at night, might as well be able to see well during it. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 5:30:42 AM EDT
[#20]
It is a tool. An amazingly fun and boner inspiring tool, but still a tool.
As far as your budget and use.....go head-mounted used Gen 2+/low end 3 and save a few extra months to get to $1500 |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 5:43:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aside from hunting etc I wear my during power outages after hurricanes. Its a must have, half of your life is at night, might as well be able to see well during it. interesting perspective, i never thought of it like that. it is a very fun tool, but still a tool. If your a predator hunter then you have no excuse not to save for a nice set, if you are an average joe who dosent hunt but is a tacticool keyboard ninja not so much unless you actually decide you are going to use it and not just let it sit there. gen 1 is what I would call a toy, dont even bother with it. (ask me how I know) put the money in a bank account and save until you can afford something nice. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 8:07:12 AM EDT
[#22]
I'm going to go the other direction from the majority of responders. I've had four or five Gen1 ATN MK-390 (4x) and MK-410 (5x) scopes. Bought, traded, sold all but one of them, and that one is on the EE now. Do they work as well as Gen 2 or Gen 3? No. With adequate IR illumination, will they let you sit in a stand and shoot pigs under a feeder at 80 to 130 yards? Damn right they will. Are they as good as my thermal scope or my PVS14s? No, but they can be had for $350-$400. I have used them on 357 handi rifle, 223 and 300BLK ARs, and have found that they work great on a crossbow too.
Do you get what you pay for? Most of the time. I have had some complete BS Gen 1 NV that I literally threw away. If someone has $500 for NV and wants to see if they like it/ would use it, I would not hesitate to recommend these two particular scopes. If someone has $1,000- $1,500 and up to drop on NV, yeah, I would recommend something else. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:55:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aside from hunting etc I wear my during power outages after hurricanes. Its a must have, half of your life is at night, might as well be able to see well during it. What he said. Except the only hurricanes we get here are the ones I made. |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 6:57:21 AM EDT
[#24]
As previously stated it depends on your use. If you buy, look through it a few time and put it in your gun safe it is a toy. If you have coyotes take 7 of your daughters show lambs at $300 minimum apiece in a week (at night) it is a must have. It paid for itself with the first coyote I shot on my property and I have not lost another lamb since I started hunting them at night. Buy the best you can afford pay once cry once. YMMV.
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Posted: 4/26/2014 7:10:38 AM EDT
[#25]
I use mine all the time. I wouldn't say it is essential for everyone, but for me it is. I couldn't imagine not having them. I even use them to sneak around the house on Christmas night to retrieve and place gifts under the tree without waking my kids up. I use them for everything. I also hog hunt and varmint/predator hunt when I go to my property in Texas. I carry them with me when I bow hunt so if I have to search for a deer after the sun goes down then I can see what I'm doing and aid me in recovery efforts. Plus my kids love them.
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Posted: 4/26/2014 7:51:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Must have for me. Night vision is useful for power outages and SHTF scenarios. Of course hunting and varmint control are great uses. I also use mine to drive my boat in the dark. I love to be the first person out to get to the best crabbing spots before anyone else. While GPS keeps me in known areas night vision lets me see obstacles such as crab traps or other debris. Wrap a crab trap around your prop and it makes for a bad day. You can end up in the water for hours cutting line off your out-drive. Not a fun way to start your morning trust me.
ETA: Can you own page two on a edit or is that against ARF rules ? 
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Posted: 4/26/2014 10:05:39 AM EDT
[#27]
Six months ago I'd never even held or looked through a NOD, and I got along just fine.
Now that I'm a seasoned night vision veteran, I expect Vic at TNVC to be giving me a call with a lucrative job offer any moment now... 
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Posted: 4/26/2014 10:13:14 AM EDT
[#28]
NV is a toy, thermal is an absolute need. Save your money for the thermal...
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Posted: 4/26/2014 10:14:47 AM EDT
[#29]
I feel your pain OP... I'm working on getting one of these right now...
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Posted: 4/27/2014 6:56:28 PM EDT
[#30]
I consider NODs of some sort as a really nice thing to have SHTF tool wise.
As far as low cost options the cheap generation 1 stuff is useless without illumination and still not very good. It would help you know if someone was looking for YOU with ACTIVE IR but little else. I have an Armasight Spark (around $500 for the unit) that I helmet mount that I do like. It is actually a usefull tool during all but the darkest of nights. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 8:55:04 PM EDT
[#31]
I always have a PVS-14 on my list but I keep finding other stuff to buy instead. The price is very intimidating for a regular young guy but I just added up what I've spent so far this year on toys....could have got the NV
 I got a bit more saved up but a versamax tactical is calling my name right now.
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Posted: 4/28/2014 4:00:40 AM EDT
[#32]
In my mind, it's both It's practical in a lot of senses - tracking deer at night, home defense (I have a special situation, and being able to leave the lights off while I position myself would be a huge advantage), hiking, stargazing (stars through this thing are amazing), predator hunting (lots of coyote out here), power outages, etc. - it's fun, but it's also really useful. There have already been two occasions where I've heard some noises out in the woods, and I've donned the NV to go investigate. Sounded a lot like trespassers on our property, but turns out the sound was bouncing down a hollow from elsewhere.
Also, I'll be honest. Look at Ukraine, and tell me that NV wouldn't be massively useful in a situation like that. Whether it's just for getting the hell out of dodge without giving yourself away with a flashlight, or for being a more effective defender, there are a lot of reasons for civilians to have access to and ownership of this technology 
ETA: and it's worth every penny I paid for it, IMO. I would rather have one gun and NV than 4 guns that I can only use during the day. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 4:34:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: gen 3 NV is a must have fun toy! I hesitated when I ordered my TNV/PVS-14, SPIR Torch, DBAL-I2, and helmet. After all, how much will I actually use it? I can't hunt at night on my hunting lease. I'm not an operator. I'm not a bootlegger, or a shrimper who wants to illegally put my nets out at night. Having said all that, I wish I'd gotten them sooner, since looking through it is AMAZING. I see no reason that a decent Gen II combined with a good illuminator and a good helmet wouldn't be completely servicable for most uses. But good Gen III is AMAZING. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 5:41:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always have a PVS-14 on my list but I keep finding other stuff to buy instead. The price is very intimidating for a regular young guy but I just added up what I've spent so far this year on toys....could have got the NV I got a bit more saved up but a versamax tactical is calling my name right now.Get NV. I wish I bought mine YEARS ago. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 5:44:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MWrap a crab trap around your prop and it makes for a bad day. You can end up in the water for hours cutting line off your out-drive. Not a fun way to start your morning trust me. In January we diver hunt (ducks, not swimmers...) out in the Pamlico and Albemarle sounds. Foul your prop then and there and it's deadly. 
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Posted: 4/28/2014 6:18:32 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NV is a toy, thermal is an absolute need. Save your money for the thermal... I call BS... Have you ever tried riding a quad in the dark using only thermal? They are two different tools for two different tasks, and yes we have both. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 6:53:57 AM EDT
[#37]
the wait time on my TNVpvs14 is killing me.... and im only 1 week in to the lead time
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Posted: 4/28/2014 7:00:43 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the wait time on my TNVpvs14 is killing me.... and im only 1 week in to the lead time I know how you feel. Trust me, it will be worth the wait. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 7:21:54 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get NV. I wish I bought mine YEARS ago. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I always have a PVS-14 on my list but I keep finding other stuff to buy instead. The price is very intimidating for a regular young guy but I just added up what I've spent so far this year on toys....could have got the NV I got a bit more saved up but a versamax tactical is calling my name right now.Get NV. I wish I bought mine YEARS ago. I think I'm really going to try to save up enough this time. I just needed some motivation, that's why I'm in the NV section 
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Posted: 4/28/2014 7:59:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I'm really going to try to save up enough this time. I just needed some motivation, that's why I'm in the NV section Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I always have a PVS-14 on my list but I keep finding other stuff to buy instead. The price is very intimidating for a regular young guy but I just added up what I've spent so far this year on toys....could have got the NV I got a bit more saved up but a versamax tactical is calling my name right now.Get NV. I wish I bought mine YEARS ago. I think I'm really going to try to save up enough this time. I just needed some motivation, that's why I'm in the NV section 
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Posted: 4/28/2014 11:10:19 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I always have a PVS-14 on my list but I keep finding other stuff to buy instead. The price is very intimidating for a regular young guy but I just added up what I've spent so far this year on toys....could have got the NV I got a bit more saved up but a versamax tactical is calling my name right now.Get NV. I wish I bought mine YEARS ago. I think I'm really going to try to save up enough this time. I just needed some motivation, that's why I'm in the NV section  http://youtu.be/eZcFwfqOT5UMmhmm, that definitely helps....I'm assuming that is with no IR illuminator? |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 11:20:56 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mmhmm, that definitely helps....I'm assuming that is with no IR illuminator? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I always have a PVS-14 on my list but I keep finding other stuff to buy instead. The price is very intimidating for a regular young guy but I just added up what I've spent so far this year on toys....could have got the NV I got a bit more saved up but a versamax tactical is calling my name right now.Get NV. I wish I bought mine YEARS ago. I think I'm really going to try to save up enough this time. I just needed some motivation, that's why I'm in the NV section http://youtu.be/eZcFwfqOT5UMmhmm, that definitely helps....I'm assuming that is with no IR illuminator? No extra IR, I remember little moon, but could be wrong. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 2:32:52 PM EDT
[#43]
I wanted as a fun toy. Now it seems essential. Don't waste your time with gen 1 I find it worse than my own eyes at night. For around a grand you can find a m845 used but head mounted is the only way to fly. I just got a used gen 3 pvs7 from the EE $950 and couldn't be happier for the price, it has a huge liver spot. I find night vision like scuba diving is amazing just being able to do something you weren't made to do. Plus pigs are evil.
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Posted: 4/28/2014 9:54:04 PM EDT
[#44]
Night vision has a place in home defense as long as you have an IR laser zero to your gun... You can even go as far as to put a master power switch in your room to maintain that advantage.
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Posted: 4/29/2014 3:57:15 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Night vision has a place in home defense as long as you have an IR laser zero to your gun... You can even go as far as to put a master power switch in your room to maintain that advantage. Cue the "Goodbye Horses" song. 
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Posted: 4/29/2014 5:04:07 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cue the "Goodbye Horses" song. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Night vision has a place in home defense as long as you have an IR laser zero to your gun... You can even go as far as to put a master power switch in your room to maintain that advantage. Cue the "Goodbye Horses" song. It puts the lotion on its skin.... |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 1:31:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Remember when we got along just fine without:
Cell Phones iPads The Internet "Reality" TV For most of us, now that we have NODs we don't want to do without them. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 8:40:48 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cue the "Goodbye Horses" song. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Night vision has a place in home defense as long as you have an IR laser zero to your gun... You can even go as far as to put a master power switch in your room to maintain that advantage. Cue the "Goodbye Horses" song. Good song though... Especially if you're wearing silkies ;)
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Posted: 4/29/2014 9:14:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't get it. It's the only real (not for fun) application for civilian use... I think hog and coyote hunters who are having their stock eaten or land torn up might disagree with you. Not that I'm using it for that - but if feral hogs are going a couple 'thou' damage to your land every year, it doesn't take long for NV and an IR laser to pay for itself. Dealing with criminal "home invaders" is only one form of "home defense," though I suppose you might be able to call it "homestead defense." ~Augee |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 9:42:53 PM EDT
[#50]
IMO in that particular application for the price for a decent set of NVG's and a laser, the moeny would be better spent on a mounted thermal. once you get out to couple houndred meters seeing pretty much anything replies HEAVILY on contrast and movement, whereas a thermal relies on just being there.
Edit: Don't forget light condition when it comes to NV
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