Hey gents

I do a lot of hog hunting with my rifle at night but it get old when the spot light man can't hold it steady. So I'm looking for a NV scope the mounts on the front side of my optics and is basically a look through using my existing sights. Since this gun is not a dedicated hog gun and I have plenty of rail up front. The rifle is a POF P415 with EOTech HHS2 and flip away magnifier. Any ideas or insight? I was looking at this one but I'm new the NV stuff. And they offer several options for this scope which I'm unsure if they're needed.  

Scope

With the limited resolution of gen 2 I would not go this way.   If you have to be in this price range  a m845 and just take on and off.   That's how I used to do it and it never lost zero after being on and off dozens of times.  

I just got a pvs7 and laser.   I tried to get it sighted This weekend but ran out of time.  Never tried to sight a nv laser before.  I love the m845 but head mounted seems to beat the scope hands down.

What ranges are you looking at hunting?  What's your budget?

I just bought two Armasight Nemesis 4x in Gen 2 white phosphor for my buddy. Liked it so much, I got another one for my Dad.  Swapped out the screw mount and added the QD mount.  Have both of them banging 4 and 6 inch gongs at 200 swapping back and forth with QD day scope and QD night scope on a 308 bolt and a 223 AR.  Dad's been whacking the 8" 300 yard gong with the 308.  For $1,600 including the QD mount, and another $60 for a Streamlight SuperTac IR, you'd be in business out to 300 yards.  

A clip on is great, but you lose some clarity and light amplification going through the day optic's lenses.  Good quality QD mounts made more sense to me, and so far, they've been working out great.

I'm using the Armasight Co Mr gen2+ ID clip on. Ncorry is right about the clarity issue. I have killed varmints out to 150 yrs with mine.  If you can buy a NV scope instead of a clipon, do it. Now if money is no issue buy the best. Another con with the Co Mr is the weight, mine weighs in at 2 lbs! Im not sure what the co mini weighs. I have to
shoot with a stick. Also get the Torch it helps with the clarity. Im also using the Nikon scope behing my clipon.

Is like to stay around $3500. Furthest range would be 100 yards. With lots of trees and palmetto scrub. Would a FLIR or thermal be better? Most shots will be 30-40yards using a suppressor.
Thermal

I have no trouble hitting 6" steel with my TNVC PVS14 and laser...seems like it would be a lot more versatile for the money than a dedicated clip-on, and would be capable of working in the application you're interested in.

I'm not familiar with either the of the units you're looking at but I do use an ATN PS-22-2+ in front of a Primary Arms 1x6.  It's mounted on a DPMS lr .243 hunter and it works very well out to about 150 yds.  It has a small POI shift to the right but groups 1 1/2 inches at 100 yds.  If I had the money I would go ahead and get a dedicated night rifle & scope but that's out of reach right now.  It does make a heavy rifle set-up very heavy, but I still manage to kill plenty running pigs with it offhand.  Its low budget hog/beaver control but I'm happy with it.

I am making the assumption based on what you wrote that you have no NV at this time. If so, based on my own experience I would not get a NV scope as my first piece of NV equipment. How are you going to locate the critters with a dedicated NV scope? You do not want to be shouldering the rifle with day scope and NV Clip On to scan to locate animals. Never mind the fact that it is not safe and it is a pain in the ass. The same can be said if you just bought a thermal rifle scope.

As mentioned your best bet is start with a PVS-14 and an IR laser and get an IR illuminator. It allows you navigate the landscape and see the critters. Scanning with the IR illuminator allows you to see eye shine from the animals which will allow you to stalk in closer. With the correct shopping you could get a PVS-14, a Crimson Trace IR rail laser and a helmet with USGI mounts.

or you could buy a low end thermal monocular which would allow you to see way more animals than just NV and you can stalk in and use your current system to engage them. Just pop on a powerful white light with red filter and use shooting sticks and eliminate your unsteady spot light man

Well it looks like I have more reading to do. I like the helmet idea but I seems like there's so many different optics and platforms to choose from that it's hard to pick one and I don't want to make a $4000 mistake. I'll do a little more research into the helmet mounted optics and see where that gets me. And thank you for all the feed back on what weapon mounted systems everyone is using I find those pretty helpful.

Do alot here in Texas as well.  If under 100 yds a rail mounted flashlight of 700 lumens or better works pretty well.  Used this system for years before making the NV and thermal leaps. I have pvs 14 which is helmet and rifle mountable.  There is a missing component that will allow you to use the NV in front of your scope/sight.  It's called a Black optex.  Just bought one and it looks solid though I really only got to look at it for an hour or so before I left town.  I'll write more laterbut it might be a long range solution and of course always a little more than you really want to spend but I dont think much more.   It would give you the mobility to use NV getting to the pigs then quickly attach to the rifle in front of scope.  Cant wait to try it out on 300blk that I think I'm within 30 days or so of receiving from ATS purgatory.  I can't speak to how well it woks yet though

Had a chance to look at the Black Optex Zero Lens unit I bought this weekend.  It allows for placement of PVS 14 in front of daytime scope and for me allows for quick change from helmet mount to rifle mount.  I instaled it to my PVS and held it by hand in front of my new scope (browe combat optic).  It really looks like it's going to be a very cool combination.  When I get my rifle I'll take pictures of the set up.   Having dealt with some of your same issues I'd advise maybe figuring if you really need NVD and if so I'd look hard at PVS 14 just because of the flexibility.  I think the zero lens was like $1500 so it's not cheap.  I'd think you can get a very nice PVS 14 and zero lens for just a bit more than your stated goal.  You could use good rail mounted flashlight in the meantime if not enough funds for the whole purchase.  

Think you'll need a little more rail than standard top rail on upper receiver area,  I can't mount yet as most of my rifles have only short top rail.  Keep having to travel so not alot of time to play with this stuff yet, I can say it looks like it will be a long line up of gear on top rail.  As far as weight, think the zero lens is a pound or so, my scope is a pound, PVS 14 think is like 12 oz or so from memory, so when pig hunting it's not going to be ultra light weight.  For grins I looked at PVS22 clip on NVD and think it was about 2 lbs so I'd say they were close (adding in weight for daytime optics).  Best of luck

Look into the Armasight CO-X, it is getting great reviews on another sight that I wont mention unless you IM me. Gen 2 is very usable regardless of what some say. I have a Gen SHP D740 from TNVC and it is a solid piece of kit. I though they messed up and sent me a Gen 3 unit and called them to ensure I didn't get something for nothing.  The D740 will alow me to see a target out to 500 yards on the best of nights but I can't dial that far with the unit, that is it's limitation for me. That is where the clip ons have the advantage....The Armasight clip ons are being tested by a cops agency and he reported on that board it is holding it's on in many areas against units costing 35% more and even leading in a couple... I have one on order....

There is no doubt that the stuff our military is top notch and that is the reason why they cost as much as a small car ($10K). But some of this stuff (Armasight) is designed by foreign militaries and assemblemd under US QC. To imply that the US miliatary grade stuff is only usable is debatble, other military grade stuff is shock proof and water proof too. Not trying to pick a fight or come across as a dick but isn't the D740/D760 made in Russia?  Don't you sell them?Isn't it a copy of US Raptors? What is it to say that someone has not finally been able to make a usable affordable clip on that doesn't cost 5K? So far, right now it appears there is one but time will tell and I will be one of the first t bitch and warn others if the Armasight is not what it cracks up to be. But right now, there are quite a few that have them and the early reports are promising...

ETA theirs is rated to 300WM if you use the QD mount but .308 if you attach to the objective. They also have a Larueish typ mount for bolt guns too...

Edit: punching out. Not worth it.

My Armasight has held up fine, and it's got great specs. But hey, I'm just a consumer, not a salesman. My sample size of 1 cannot compare to a dealer selling his stuff.

Chip is not trying to sell his stuff.  I know these guys well enough to say that they give good advice geared toward customer needs.  Sometimes that gets them a sale.  Sometimes it doesn't.  It is a good business model because it is customer focused.   That said, it's your money.  If you want to try ice skating up hill, knock yourself out.

Cool story bro, thanks for the advice. Next time I'll ask you instead. So you can set me straight.

I was caught off guard at the Shot Show when the Pres of Tula Ammo and his shady looking Mafia type entourage wanted to learn about NV and when I told him I could not discuss it with him due to his Russian nationality and passport, I suggested he just get some Russian NV gear instead, he laughed and said hell no, he wants the BEST - American NV/Thermal, not Russian junk.....

The D series scopes (D-740, D-760...) are made "technically" by the Ruskies. That said , they only make the housing and the ones sold in the US have US tubes. The D series scopes are made by a company called Dedal and they have a long history of making quality housings and optics. Dipol is another well know Russian company that makes good stuff. I don't know exactly who the Russian military buys from but I highly suspect it is one (or both) of the two above.

Comparing a highly complicated clip on to a rifle scope is sort of like comparing a push mower to a riding mower. Vastly different animals. The D series scopes have been around forever and have been well tested over the years. They are a solid platform.

Now follow along here. I mentioned Dedal and Dipol because I like "most" of the gear they sell. For the most part they sell good stuff as long as it contains US or Euro tubes and not Russian tubes. The Russian tube power supply's went poof on a regular basis (I hear they are better now but have not seen first hand).

All this brings me to another point and I will not mention names. COT is another BelRussian maker of absolute junk IMHO. They are not technically in Russia so we like to call them BelRussian. COT makes cheap junk for some well known ABC night vision outfits. They were the makers of some PVS-22 clones that had serious zero retention issues. I have no issue with Russian gear at all. The Russians over engineer everything and usually make simple well engineered products. Usually heavy but built like a tank. Just be careful with ANY night vision scope where the origin is "secret", and know what company has produced the housing and optics. Know that company's reputation. Much Russian gear is great but some is truly cheap made junk designed to maximize profits.

Up to the consumer to do his homework and find out which is which. Many good points already expressed above. I don't know about every clip on made and would be foolish to try. A scopes ultimate reputation will be written by the customers who buy them.

ETA: Almost all night vision gear is sold through distributors and dealers. Very little is sold directly from the manufacturer. These distributors and dealers put their own names and cosmetic markings on them. Just a little tip here. Almost everything can be traced back to WHO MADE IT with a little Google detective work. They may change the knobs or a little plastic but the core design is usually easy to spot. Another tell is specs of the design. Specs don't change because you put a new knob on.

Wow.   It's funny how people treat tnvc sometimes.   Johnny and ghost do you realize they have forgotten more about just this type of night vision device than you will ever know about NV period.  He didn't say buy this, he said be ware.   They have offered quality, informed advice over and over.   You guys should learn to keep your mouth shut when you sit at the grownup table.

It was pretty funny, he appeared to be a super hard core Ruskie too.

He did have one of the hottest looking Russian blonde chicks with him that I'd seen in a long time, much better looking than that hot blonde that was hanging on Steven Segal, but she looked like she had been the victim of abuse and felt sorry for her. That was a tough looking group of furiner's for sure!

Man, you have absolutely no clue. None whatsoever. But thanks for telling me to keep my mouth shut. Super classy.

I'm not treating them wrong at all, I have purchased from them before and will
again. Like I mentioned before people have tested the Armasights and they appear to be working well. I forget where the housings are made but the the tubes Gen 2 are made in France with the Gen 3 coming from the US. When I mentioned 5k for a clip on I was talking about the WASP not the Armasight, their CO-X Gen 3 is about 3,500. I totally understand the difference between a clip on and a dedicated scope. All I am saying there appears to be a new manufacture that is making one that works. There are many people that have the Armasight and so far I have heras of zero issues with them. I spoke with the vendor directly before ordering mine, they are assembled in California. This is the difference between it and the ATN PS22 that had a 50/50 success ratio due to collimation issues. I would agree before Armasight came along and was even skeptical of the company until recently and talking with people that have them. All I am saying is I think there is finally an affordable clip on in the market that works.

So, discussing equipment made by manufacturers and sold by vendors that are not frequently mentioned on this forum is not acting or being "grownup"? If we're limited to a select few, hell, lets just make this an industry forum then, sell it to the highest bidder.

I will start the bid at US $5.00 .

Yeah I thought the same thing, wow.

Yeah, that was out of line. Is his defense though this is a tough forum to wade into when you don't know the forum and players. They don't know we fight, kick and scream but mostly shake hands at the end of the day.

Johnny admits in his post he has no experience besides himself then goes on to Speak as if he does.   I wasn't mad just irritated.  I wasn't trying to imply I have such experience.  Only that he should have done what he admitted.  We are dealing with high dollar gear that is very complicated and most will make buying decisions off what  they read or hear.  If you don't KNOW don't muddy the water.  Perhaps I was to harsh.  It was a saying my father used and I try and apply it to myself.  I guess I'm overly sensitive.  I make real buying decisions based on this forum and I want to be at the mercy of people with experience no opinions.  

I will appologize again if for stepping out of line and now shut my trap.

Well, I don't know about you guys but I'm really feeling the love.... I.... I.... need a tissue.

On second thought I should say that was very out of line.  If it would have been in person I wouldn't have said that to ghost and Johnny.   No excuse and I will try and not let it happen again.

We have ALL been to that island.

No biggie, I have thick skin and have worse things said to me. I appreciate the olive branch...

Not me. I always say the right things.

It's a gift.

In fact, back in my schoolin' days, I was so gifted they put me on a special bus.

No worries, if that's the worst thing said to me today I'm doing pretty good. Keep in mind, there's a difference between experience and simply owning a sample size of 1. I spent my money because it was the best option at that price point. Is it everyone's best option? Not at all. The beauty of having choice is that you can purchase whatever best fits your need, whether that's the top of the line or the bottom of the barrel. Even though people may take issue with some products, without knowing exactly what their needs are, their opinion is as unqualified as anyone else's, regardless of experience, and as such painting with broad strokes is a slippery slope.

There's lots of background information and it should be expected that dealers and manufacturers defend their products. Sometimes though, even the good guys may be unclear in their explanations of things, etc. The TNVC guys are good guys but they are not without blame at times. They are by far the most honest and upstanding of the bunch, and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. There's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes, a large part of which I know, from many sides of the story. I just take issue with certain aspects of having what is essentially a captive audience. I don't hold it against Chip to want to defend his products and drive sales to what he certainly thinks is the best solution. However, I think he, and really all dealers and manufacturers, often seen issues from solely their own perspective.

I also think that when TNVC releases the WASP it will put the whole conversation to bed. I have no doubt their product will be the best of the inexpensive clip-ons. That being said, competition is good for everyone, sometimes people need to realize that their side of the fence isn't necessarily anything more than opinion when you look at the bigger picture.

To kind of trial back on topic, and echo what TNVC is saying... There is a certain point where kit has to preform to a certain standard to be something you can trust. Now a manufacturers reputation does not necessarily factor into this, because if a piece of kit is useful; it's useful. It doesn't necessarily matter who is selling it to you as long as it works.

The problem here is when kit doesn't work.

There are a number of dealers on other sites who will promote less than able systems as meeting a stated need or being able to fulfill a requirement. When we hear that a clip on is suitable up until 4x magnification or usable out to 200m/yrd, we are somewhat in opinion territory. We all understand firearm safety, the need for positively identifying your target and the responsibility that comes with pulling a trigger... Yet we see these systems that at their stated useful ranges are incredibly grainy or difficult to determine what you are looking at. Sure you are able to aim and shoot at a steel plate, but if you did not already know that was a steel plate... Would you be able to identify it as such?

I wanted to pull up some images this individual had posted up on another forum. He was posting incredibly positive reviews of Armasight products until he eventually admitted he received review products from them to test (as people on the forums became suspicious), and later became a dealer for Armasight selling products... I tried to retrieve images of the Armasight Clip On Mini he had posted prior to him becoming a dealer but they had since been removed from imgur. This is only possible if you have retained the deletion link at the time of uploading, it is not possible to delete an image if you failed to consciously save that link to delete an image.

A single Google cached thumbnail image is all that remains of those photographs.



Now this isn't really anything to go off of. Google thumbnails are notorious for being terrible. As from what I can remember from the thread? I wasn't necessarily impressed with the images. It was difficult to determine what exactly you are shooting at.

Now how about we compare the two potential system from a physical standpoint?



This is the Armasight Clip on Mini. It certainly lives up to it's name sake - it's small. It is stated that it can be used up to a 4x Optic, and it is comfortably at home in front of an ACOG. An incredibly light weight, compact solution that would give your low magnification optics some night fighting capability... But wait.


(image stolen from TNVC. Sorry guys)

This thing is so HUGE. It uses a much larger lens system, complete with a reflector, and it certainly looks like it weights a fair bit more... But it is also stated that it is meant only for up to a 4x Optic, and is comfortably paired with an ACOG sight... Hm.

This is an image I took from TNVC's website of the PVS-24 paired with a 4x ACOG. The full size image is available on their website, I took a cropped one to be posted in the thread.



That picture is exceptionally clear, almost as if it were a native 4x optic. Granted the urban-ish lighting is probably helping the picture clarity, sure... But at 4x magnification that is a remarkable picture. This is the image that your clip on should be producing - a clear, potentially crisp image in which you can determine the difference of a Ford from a Volvo, or a hog from cattle.

Is it possible the Armasight could accomplish this feat with their substantially smaller housing? I don't know because I am not one of the resident glass/lens mathematicians here. I only know what I've experienced first hand. My guess? I doubt it. With that doubt, if you have a sales person telling you they have a system that accomplishes exactly the same thing in a package that is half the size and half the cost? That should give you pause. You should really investigate and think.

If your needs are that you can clip it on to a rail and look through it to hit steel you set up at night? Sure. I understand why it would be a good purchase... But if you are one of those guys who needs to make sure the four legged creature it the one they need dead, and not a freezers supply of unwanted beef? You may need to investigate how to supplement the package to make it effective (Common suggestion with Gen 2 is to add illumination, as an example), or seek an alternative solution.

Remember we have guys on this forum that suggest you pick up your night vision to identify what you are looking at through your thermal scope before pulling the trigger. Even if you are 99% sure it is what you want to kill? It's irresponsible to pull the trigger. You need to be 100% sure. Every time.

For anyone reading this; the board culture may look elitist ("Buy the military grade gear!") but it's really not. It all comes down to typical firearm responsibility, and buying quality products. You need to know that when you go to use the piece of equipment it's going to turn on every time you need it to. You need to know that your point of impact isn't going to shift and send rounds god knows where. You need to know that you will be able to see and understand the image that it is presenting to you.

All this said I am completely open to trying an Armasight if given the opportunity. There is nothing wrong with experimenting and potentially being wrong (Who knows, it could be revolutionary technology)... If that experimentation comes at the expense of your own wallet? I'd rather save up a bit more and buy something I know will work.

A more apples to apples comparison would be the Armasight CO-X ( it's performance is closer to the PVS-24) but I get what you are saying. The dealer where I purchased mine from states the co-mini is a 100 meter optic at for it's best performance and he was  pretty forthright  about it's limitations. Like I said I was pretty skeptical of the company and it's products until the threads at SH. Might be worth your time to go over and read some of the threads and see what you think. I admit I am no expert when it comes to NV. I know enough and used a enough of it in the Marine Corps and as a cop to form a decent opinion of equipment. I have nothing but respect for TNVC and some of the well knowledgable members here. I think like most humans we get comfortable with what we know and put ourselves in a box. It's safe not to go outside the box and especially since we are talking thousands of dollars here. I am no way saying that Armasight is the end all be all or even equal to some of the higher priced units. I think they may be another option for those who are not jumping out of helicopters or launching out of subs. Gear that must survive those conditions need to be enginered and designed to survive that or withstand .50 BMG recoil and that costs (10K).  But not even consider for one moment, that maybe a company has come out with something that can survive bumping into a tree in the woods or falling from a tree stand or dismiss reports from owners that have been using them is not very prudent in my opinon. If you are the type that needs the best of the best and your pockets can support buying a 10K unit to kill hogs then by all means go for it.

My unit should be here Monday and the following week I plan on doing a little testing. First and most importantly is how it does when being removed and get put back on. I want to see how big a POI shift there is, the company says no more than 1 MOA and that would be exceptable for me. Then I wil keep track how it does by being mounted on the rifle and thrown in the back of the squad  with all the other stuff and how it handles getting tossed around in the trunk at high speeds. This and falling in a case in a swat vehicle is about the normal abuse all of my gear has seen over the last 13 years. We don't have helos or subs but we sure have alot of trees that I have walked into at night or tripped over a down fence line and fallen over. If it can survive that, which I am sure it will then I will be happy. This is going on a hunting rig anyway so no one life is on the line other than a yote.  With that I will bow out of this because I keep saying the same thing over again and others as well. My only point is there appears there is a usable and affordable clip on for hunters that doesn't cost 5k and up and that is based on ownership by forum members and other places on the net, not by salesmen and to dismiss their reports positive or negative (which I have not seen one yet) is foolish. Have a good day gents....

I probably know that guy. If you ever wanted to look at something in person, you can go to his house, eat a steak, and check it out. If you want the cached pics, just ask. However, you forgot the part about them being taken with an I phone through a gen 2 tube.

If Vic doesn't mind I'd like to talk a little about testing. I'm not sure what his guys do for testing, however I spent 4.5 years testing gun stuff, including electro-optis, in an engineering setting.

Testing is important, and frankly I'm not convinced it's done that well either if the product wasn't developed for a military contract, because of how cost intensive it is to properly test something.

For instance, it's very easy to place a 10K round expectation on a design, hit 7200 rds and then hear the CEO say "good enough"  because otherwise you'll have to spend at least another $5K in ammo alone if testing goes properly after redesign and a delay of several months. Or if you're testing for a third party, you fail an optic and when you receive the next Rev you realize it's the exact same piece of hardware with no modifications (and they're trying to trick you into passing it the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time).

I've had stuff that's held up beautifully on 5.56 guns, should be good to go. And 10 rounds into a .308 test the lenses turn to powder. You send it back and are told it didn't need it to be tested on .308 and the next week see it for sale online on an optics website. Apparently it's been sold for months before testing was ever conducted.

You may find out that the "spec-sheet" is a copy paste of the RFI that was sent out, but its not been designed, nor tested to see if it conforms to the specs that were paid for. And it's been in production for years.

Testing is difficult, expensive, and time consuming. (And having no idea what Vic does for testing) It's more than firing rounds into a dirt berm and seeing if it holds zero for 1000 rounds. It's measuring each elevation/windage adjustment, power draw, zero shift over time, zero return, battery failure, optical clarity, durability over time, durability during FA fire. Each gun produces different shock and what is compatible with a 5.56 might no work on a .50 and vice versa.

NV is a snake oil salesman's wet dream. Highly complicated, very expensive, unclear parts origins, the end use may not get the time on them they'd like to to fully wring out issues, combined with ego and buyer remorse. The same guys who buy DPMS guns and barska scopes also want to buy NV. That creates a market for extremely low budget NV, which in turns gives fuel to the "what's the difference between the X.Y.Z. and the P.O.S.?"

So when Vic commits to testing and brand image, it means something.

It is actually an Apples to Apples Comparison. On Insights website it is stated it is meant for use with 4x Systems, and the L3 PDF states the same thing. Now TNVC says you can push that out to about 6x, but beyond that taxes the system beyond use. Armasights website says the Clip on Mini is "right at home" up to 6x... But then in the specifications under "Magnification" it says "1x (recommended to use with up to 10x day time optics)" for the Gen 3 Alpha Tube.

It's an apt comparison because it is advertised as trying to fill the exact same role as the PVS-24. The only reason why it isn't a fair comparison is because the PVS-24 actually accomplishes it's stated objective.

To address your point about the Hide: My reference to the reviewer turned dealer who deleted all his images was from the hide. I follow what goes on over there and I do read the information that is presented... But your post kind of highlights the issue with these conflicting buyer mentalities.

In every day life there are really two types of buyers. There are more, actually, but for simplicity's sake you I'm going to narrow it down to two. There is the people who takes the salesman's impression into the purchase decision. They use the sales person to help make their own decisions, asking questions about the product. When presented with the cliched used car salesmen, who will stretch the truth in an effort to making a sale? The only answer is to walk away. Any sort of information you are given can no longer be trusted, and you then officially have no basis on making an informed purchase decision. After you have learned that the information you have been given may or may not be the truth, you are gambling.

The second purchaser is the one who does their own research, and makes their own determination as to whether or not to make the purchase decision. They test drive the car, look under the hood themselves, and put it through the paces to make the decision for themselves and only themselves. Whatever the salesman says doesn't matter; if it fits your purpose and the price is right? You buy it. The salesmen is only there to ring up the sale and that is it.

The only issue is you can't mix and match these realities when it is convenient. If you have a dealer who used to be that guy who everyone suspected being paid off by the company he is giving reviews to, who is deleting photographs, and only had positive things to say about the products he now sells? You can't take the information he provides only because it seems like the truth. If he now says "Nah that is all just marketing fluff, it's really only good for out to 100 yards." you can't take that information at face value because it seems reasonable and truthful now.

The only appropriate solution is to test it for yourself, if you can. If you know someone with the equipment, or can get a good return / test policy? Go for it. Test the hell out of it. If it works for you? There is nothing wrong with using a piece of kit that works. There are plenty of people who own ATN products here. No one holds any animosity for them. If it works, it works. It is that simple. The only brand-hate that people have is towards marketing material. Nothing more.

Hell if we look back to a year ago the ATN THoR used to be the most recommended thermal scope here because people bought it, tested it, and it turned out to be a good piece of kit. That is here, this forum, unanimously agreeing the ATN THoR was the best bang for your buck. HERE! Of all places!

I can't take Armasight at face value. I can't take their dealers at face value, even the company selling their product up here in Canada. They have all exhibited shady behavior on some level or another. I just choose to stay away from it until I can get some hands on time with a system, or I have a couple thousand dollars just laying around and don't mind blowing it on a new toy.

If someone can come on the forum, post pictures, and give a really good, detained review of the product? Awesome. I would love for that to happen as everyone would benefit. I just won't be the one doing it, at least not until my numbers come up in the lottery.

Until someone drops the coin on the comparable models of armasight co-mr/lr/x and the established pvs 24/27/whatever, and does a thorough T&E including POI shift, image quality, ruggedness, etc., in a scientific manner, we are all spinning our wheels.  

Not possible as per site staff. At least for a while. Trust me, I asked permission and was denied. I understand why, but it doesn't really help anyone when trying to glean fact from the fluff.

So... can someone tell me whether or not I am understanding this correctly.

I go out and buy "X" clip-on and decide to report back here to the forum with some photos and my thoughts / findings.

How on earth is that NOT allowed? I've posted similar things without issue before. Is this a new policy? Since when? Why?

Something sounds fishy.

TNVC graciously took the time to IM me the backstory on this. They didn't need to do that, but now I understand. Also, it was done professionally. No personal axes were ground, which I respect.

Shills can quickly kill a forum of any objectivity and dilute real information to the point where the S/N ratio drops to a point where it becomes impossible to find reliable information, and it would probably drive out guys that we depend upon, like David, Dino, Thom, Vic, Eric, Chip, Heineken, etc.

That would truly suck ass. This forum is the exclusive reason I ponied up for a platinum membership to this site.

Just my $0.02

Copy that, there are a few plops of BS now and then here and there but it is NOT the constant stream of BS from shills like I see on other sites.

And we are able to have some fun and be technical at the same time and still help folks save money just by knowing the myraid of options out there and the performance expected of each.

If you can pony up the money to get one, I would really recommend that you get a pvs-24. I have really enjoyed mine in front of a Trijicon Accupoint. I've since moved the Accupoint back so that I could get the 24 off of the gas block.I haven't found the weight to be too unwieldy at all. I run around with this thing on me for hours at a time more than I use it propped up in one position. On a side note, I do have a question that the TNVC guys can most likely answer. When 24 was in the position seen in the picture (partially on the gas block) I would find that shooting a few times would make the image go blurry for a period of time. Is this caused by the gas coming out of the front of the piston system? I hope that doesn't count as derailing the thread since it is related to clip-on devices.
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TheHorta, there is backstory, and I fully understand why they don't want to cause any problems. I do believe that it will be allowed eventually, but it needs to be once the dust settles and it will be an unbiased approach. I do not believe it was anything personal that drive the decision to limit my review.

Back on topic of the op. I been hog hunted with nv and thermal  for 6-7 years now. In that time I've tried just about every combination you can think of. The most versatile and most effective in my opinion is this.: helmet mounted anvis 9's or dual mums, weapon mounted d-740, ir laser, and hand held thermal for detection if your hunting river bottoms with heavy tree cover something with a 18-24 deg fov works great. If your hunting row crops and pastures a h307 kicks ass ( I've picked up heat signatures on rice fields in the 1500 yard range with mine. ).  If your dog hunting a 760 with a good ir works great. Hogs stand out great with nv however yotes tend to wash out. The  illumination will light there eyes up like a spot light.

I've owned a pvs 24 and ran it with a k-dot. Great set up for 2.5x and picking up movers. However, the extra weight with a can and clip on towards the end of the barrel gets old. Also, image quality is not in the same league as a 740/760.  Plus for the cost you could have a 14 plus a 740. I've used 26's, 22,s with s&b glass and a dedicated nv weapon sight still gives you a better image.

I've also hunted quit a bit with thermal weapon sights. While they have there place. Nvd's kick there ass in recognition of what your shooting at. I can promise you a young calf can resemble a hog.  

If you already have a eo on your rig you can get a 14, ir laser and a quick release mount to put behind your eo tech. Add a illumination for the loss of light you have from looking threw the extra glass and you have a great set up on hogs out to 100 yards. Ir laser for quick up close shots then get efficient with going from helmet to weapon with your 14 for longer shots.

Good hunting

Km