User Panel
Posted: 4/13/2014 10:12:30 AM EDT
I have a PS24 and a LS64 but keep finding myself wanting better picture/resolution over 100 yards. When I'm coyote and bobcat hunting in south Texas, I'm constantly trying to determine if there is something in the treeline 200-400 yards out. My current setup works well, but I'm curious if there is something else that can help reduce false positives at medium range. Would the M18, M24, MTM, or some other device be noticeably better than the LS64? I'm not too concerned with FOV, so having optical magnification is OK. I also have a PVS-14 and shoot with a D-740. Thanks!
ETA: Essentially, what handheld thermal unit will produce the best image at 300 yards? |
|
Personally, I'd sell both the PS24 and LS64 to finance the purchase of an MTM with 3x magnifier or, if you have the extra cash, the M18 with a Torrey magnifier. Either way, you're going to need a magnifier. Since FOV is less important to you than long-range ID, the MTM / 3x is a killer combination and can easily ID a coyote or hog at well over 500 yards, and detect humans beyond 1,200 yards. A mint, used MTM can be had for under $4,000 and a magnifier for $1,500 or less.
|
|
For a $4k used MTM, are you talking about a 320 or 640 core? Is the EE the best place to buy these higher end units used? Are you saying the M18 is better than the MTM? Thanks.
Quoted:
Personally, I'd sell both the PS24 and LS64 to finance the purchase of an MTM with 3x magnifier or, if you have the extra cash, the M18 with a Torrey magnifier. Either way, you're going to need a magnifier. Since FOV is less important to you than long-range ID, the MTM / 3x is a killer combination and can easily ID a coyote or hog at well over 500 yards, and detect humans beyond 1,200 yards. A mint, used MTM can be had for under $4,000 and a magnifier for $1,500 or less. View Quote |
|
I could get on board with a used MTM for $4k, it's just that I've never seen one.
A decent/good thermal unit is also on my list for pretty much the same reason - we're just now getting pigs showing up, and I'd like to stay on top of them to protect the deer habitat that's being managed. Same for coyotes. |
|
They can be had on eBay for 4k. I know many would be leary and for good reason but they are there and can be had from legit sellers with return policies so u can check it once u get it . Use a credit card if you get something that's not legit return it or file a claim thru the credit card.
|
|
Quoted:
For a $4k used MTM, are you talking about a 320 or 640 core? Is the EE the best place to buy these higher end units used? Are you saying the M18 is better than the MTM? Thanks. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
For a $4k used MTM, are you talking about a 320 or 640 core? Is the EE the best place to buy these higher end units used? Are you saying the M18 is better than the MTM? Thanks. Quoted:
Personally, I'd sell both the PS24 and LS64 to finance the purchase of an MTM with 3x magnifier or, if you have the extra cash, the M18 with a Torrey magnifier. Either way, you're going to need a magnifier. Since FOV is less important to you than long-range ID, the MTM / 3x is a killer combination and can easily ID a coyote or hog at well over 500 yards, and detect humans beyond 1,200 yards. A mint, used MTM can be had for under $4,000 and a magnifier for $1,500 or less. The used MTM's are all 320. The M18 is better, but it's also over double the cost of what you can buy a used MTM with 3x magnifier. I would argue, for long-range detection and ID, an MTM / 3x is a better tool than an M18 without a magnifier. If you can afford an M18 *and* a 3x magnifier, that would make me blush with envy |
|
wow, I do the same kinda hunting and was saving up for a ls64 for exactly that, seeing if something is coming in 400 yards out.
for 5 grand, it better wipe my ass. Are you saying its totally lacking? Or is it just lacking in dense cover? Help me understand the problem. the ls64 has the 35mm lens, if I am not mistaken. I would have guess it could handle 400 yards no problem... I guess you could get the rs64, with the 60mm lens, and use it hand held, but that's getting pricey. |
|
Quoted:
I have a PS24 and a LS64 but keep finding myself wanting better picture/resolution over 100 yards. When I'm coyote and bobcat hunting in south Texas, I'm constantly trying to determine if there is something in the treeline 200-400 yards out. My current setup works well, but I'm curious if there is something else that can help reduce false positives at medium range. Would the M18, M24, MTM, or some other device be noticeably better than the LS64? I'm not too concerned with FOV, so having optical magnification is OK. I also have a PVS-14 and shoot with a D-740. Thanks! ETA: Essentially, what handheld thermal unit will produce the best image at 300 yards? View Quote I have a BHX-XR. It takes interchangeable lenses. |
|
Quoted:
I have a BHX-XR. It takes interchangeable lenses. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I have a PS24 and a LS64 but keep finding myself wanting better picture/resolution over 100 yards. When I'm coyote and bobcat hunting in south Texas, I'm constantly trying to determine if there is something in the treeline 200-400 yards out. My current setup works well, but I'm curious if there is something else that can help reduce false positives at medium range. Would the M18, M24, MTM, or some other device be noticeably better than the LS64? I'm not too concerned with FOV, so having optical magnification is OK. I also have a PVS-14 and shoot with a D-740. Thanks! ETA: Essentially, what handheld thermal unit will produce the best image at 300 yards? I have a BHX-XR. It takes interchangeable lenses. Good grief -- I guess we should call you MISTER Moneybags |
|
Generally speaking, the PS24 will detect almost everything the LS64 will detect under reasonable distance. The LS64 provides better resolution when looking around at the surroundings and is better to ID if it is a deer or coyote with 2x e-zoom. Is it $4k better? In my opinion, it is not worth the premium for most of my applications as we end up using the D-740 to ID most of the time and the PS24 detects almost as well. Actually, in some circumstances the PS24 works better at detecting for some reason. Don't get me wrong though, if you are only going to have one thermal spotter, the LS64 will outperform the PS24 especially at longer distances.
Most of the areas I hunt are open fields for a few hundred yards and then tree lines. A lot of the time the bobcats will climb in the tree and sit there for an hour. When it is warmer outside, it is hard to tell if it is a bobcat in the tree or the big branch retaining heat. This is where I am wanting more thermal detail to ID a bobcat, hawk, or hot branch at 300 yards. NV can't see through the trees well enough at that distance. Right now, I'm thinking I should sell my LS64 and and get a MTM with 3x mag or a M18 with 3x mag. This way, I will have the PS24 for shorter range detection of things coming into the call and the 3x thermal for longer range ID. I guess the other option would be to get a ThOR 640 5x for $10k or the FLIR RS64 2x for $8,500. I'm not sure how the image would compare to the other handheld 3x options though. Quoted:
wow, I do the same kinda hunting and was saving up for a ls64 for exactly that, seeing if something is coming in 400 yards out. for 5 grand, it better wipe my ass. Are you saying its totally lacking? Or is it just lacking in dense cover? Help me understand the problem. the ls64 has the 35mm lens, if I am not mistaken. I would have guess it could handle 400 yards no problem... I guess you could get the rs64, with the 60mm lens, and use it hand held, but that's getting pricey. View Quote |
|
Which lens do you use? It looks like the BHS-XR Command is a 640x320 bi-ocular system for $6k refurbished and can use 35mm, 60mm, or 100mm lens that are sold separate. The 100mm lens is $5,500. How does this compare to the M18 3x lens or MTM 3x lens?
Quoted:
I have a BHX-XR. It takes interchangeable lenses. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I have a PS24 and a LS64 but keep finding myself wanting better picture/resolution over 100 yards. When I'm coyote and bobcat hunting in south Texas, I'm constantly trying to determine if there is something in the treeline 200-400 yards out. My current setup works well, but I'm curious if there is something else that can help reduce false positives at medium range. Would the M18, M24, MTM, or some other device be noticeably better than the LS64? I'm not too concerned with FOV, so having optical magnification is OK. I also have a PVS-14 and shoot with a D-740. Thanks! ETA: Essentially, what handheld thermal unit will produce the best image at 300 yards? I have a BHX-XR. It takes interchangeable lenses. |
|
Quoted:
Good grief -- I guess we should call you MISTER Moneybags View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Buy once, cry once. Didn't have enough money in the bag for the 100mm lens though. Ouch. Quoted:
Which lens do you use? It looks like the BHS-XR Command is a 640x320 bi-ocular system for $6k refurbished and can use 35mm, 60mm, or 100mm lens that are sold separate. The 100mm lens is $5,500. How does this compare to the M18 3x lens or MTM 3x lens? I use the 35mm mostly, as I am in a wooded area so little need to look out hundreds of yards. |
|
Quoted:
Generally speaking, the PS24 will detect almost everything the LS64 will detect under reasonable distance. The LS64 provides better resolution when looking around at the surroundings and is better to ID if it is a deer or coyote with 2x e-zoom. Is it $4k better? In my opinion, it is not worth the premium for most of my applications as we end up using the D-740 to ID most of the time and the PS24 detects almost as well. Actually, in some circumstances the PS24 works better at detecting for some reason. Don't get me wrong though, if you are only going to have one thermal spotter, the LS64 will outperform the PS24 especially at longer distances. Most of the areas I hunt are open fields for a few hundred yards and then tree lines. A lot of the time the bobcats will climb in the tree and sit there for an hour. When it is warmer outside, it is hard to tell if it is a bobcat in the tree or the big branch retaining heat. This is where I am wanting more thermal detail to ID a bobcat, hawk, or hot branch at 300 yards. NV can't see through the trees well enough at that distance. Right now, I'm thinking I should sell my LS64 and and get a MTM with 3x mag or a M18 with 3x mag. This way, I will have the PS24 for shorter range detection of things coming into the call and the 3x thermal for longer range ID. I guess the other option would be to get a ThOR 640 5x for $10k or the FLIR RS64 2x for $8,500. I'm not sure how the image would compare to the other handheld 3x options though. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Generally speaking, the PS24 will detect almost everything the LS64 will detect under reasonable distance. The LS64 provides better resolution when looking around at the surroundings and is better to ID if it is a deer or coyote with 2x e-zoom. Is it $4k better? In my opinion, it is not worth the premium for most of my applications as we end up using the D-740 to ID most of the time and the PS24 detects almost as well. Actually, in some circumstances the PS24 works better at detecting for some reason. Don't get me wrong though, if you are only going to have one thermal spotter, the LS64 will outperform the PS24 especially at longer distances. Most of the areas I hunt are open fields for a few hundred yards and then tree lines. A lot of the time the bobcats will climb in the tree and sit there for an hour. When it is warmer outside, it is hard to tell if it is a bobcat in the tree or the big branch retaining heat. This is where I am wanting more thermal detail to ID a bobcat, hawk, or hot branch at 300 yards. NV can't see through the trees well enough at that distance. Right now, I'm thinking I should sell my LS64 and and get a MTM with 3x mag or a M18 with 3x mag. This way, I will have the PS24 for shorter range detection of things coming into the call and the 3x thermal for longer range ID. I guess the other option would be to get a ThOR 640 5x for $10k or the FLIR RS64 2x for $8,500. I'm not sure how the image would compare to the other handheld 3x options though. Quoted:
wow, I do the same kinda hunting and was saving up for a ls64 for exactly that, seeing if something is coming in 400 yards out. for 5 grand, it better wipe my ass. Are you saying its totally lacking? Or is it just lacking in dense cover? Help me understand the problem. the ls64 has the 35mm lens, if I am not mistaken. I would have guess it could handle 400 yards no problem... I guess you could get the rs64, with the 60mm lens, and use it hand held, but that's getting pricey. I have the ps24 and the ls64 and have the same opinion on the performance as you have experienced in South Texas, I am in the RGV. Been wanting something with 75mm to 100mm lens for longer ranges but with the hogs gone have put the search on the back burner. If you find something that works great for you post what you are using or PM me what you have found. |
|
pup- would it be safe to assume the LS 32 will do the same amount of detecting as the 64, just with less FOV? I may just go that route as it would save me money.
edit- nope. the 32 has almost the same FOV, so it will be stretched. |
|
I have not tried the LS32 personally but just on specs alone it will certainly outperform the PS-32, plus I believe it does have a spotting vis red laser too, which is helpful at times.
|
|
SkyPup-
Did FLIR ever plan on making the M-18 weapons mountable? Looking at that reticle sure makes me think they did. |
|
Hardware, I will let you know.
SkyPup, do you think the RS64-35mm or the M-18 produces a better image or are they similar? You need to get the 3x magnifier for your M-18! |
|
here is another question. where do I find an MTM for the prices that are being thrown out? the cheapest I have seen the magnifier is 2600
|
|
Quoted:
Hardware, I will let you know. SkyPup, do you think the RS64-35mm or the M-18 produces a better image or are they similar? You need to get the 3x magnifier for your M-18! View Quote They are similar, the M-18 is very close to the T-70 too, but the M-18 does produce the best image in my opinion. The RS64-35 is very similar to the T-70 at about 1/2 the price or less. I am working on the 3x magnifier too. |
|
|
is it safe to assume the LS64 and the RS64 35mm produce the exact same image?
Id love an MTM but I cant find one for less than 6500 bucks and that's used. One more question. The ATN ODIN, its a thermal in essentially a pvs-14 case. can a 3x magnifier be screwed into something like that and work? Or, put it this way, why do you need a germanium magnifier lens for a thermal, couldn't just a regular lens of some sort work as an attachable magnifier? |
|
Quoted:
is it safe to assume the LS64 and the RS64 35mm produce the exact same image? No, the RS64 has a real three lens glass optic and is much better. Id love an MTM but I cant find one for less than 6500 bucks and that's used. One more question. The ATN ODIN, its a thermal in essentially a pvs-14 case. can a 3x magnifier be screwed into something like that and work? Or, put it this way, why do you need a germanium magnifier lens for a thermal, couldn't just a regular lens of some sort work as an attachable magnifier? A regular glass lens would not work as glass does not pass mid IR. If you try looking through a window with any thermal, you will not be able to do it, you will only see the window pane. View Quote |
|
Quoted:
Or, put it this way, why do you need a germanium magnifier lens for a thermal, couldn't just a regular lens of some sort work as an attachable magnifier? View Quote Glass is opaque to the IR frequencies used by thermal, that is why a thermal scope can't see thru windows. They use VERY expensive germanium for a reason. Skypup beat me by 15 seconds! |
|
makes sense! I am not sure what to do at this point, maybe pick up an RS64 35mm and use it handheld for spotting. I really don't want to buy a MTM for 6 grand that is used and may be stolen.
|
|
Quoted:
makes sense! I am not sure what to do at this point, maybe pick up an RS64 35mm and use it handheld for spotting. I really don't want to buy a MTM for 6 grand that is used and may be stolen. View Quote I have the RS64 35mm and really like it but if you need to identify deer vs pigs @ 400 yards it may be tough. You may want to try the 60mm version for extra ID range. |
|
I don't need to ID, since whatever will be coming in to my FoxPro will be a predator. and the difference between how a coyote and pig/deer move will be huge.
plus, I get ID with the weapon scope, the spotter is just for that, spotting something coming in. If I get the RS for on gun use, I would not take a shot that far, even if I could ID it I am not good enough to connect on a 400 yard shot while hunting at night from the stands I do. my L-3 X-50 is actually doing an decent job of it right now, with just a 100x80 core and decent glass/germanium, since its moving fast at 25 hz I can pick up coyotes just as far as humans, at least 300 yards (although they are just blips, it lets me know something moving is there) but alas, we all want better, and for stuff in cover, it lacks. (its in the EE, shameless plug) I am actually looking at the ATN OTS-X stuff too, it seems to offer a lot for the money. dare I say that? you can get interchangeable lenses for it and its pretty affordable (14, 30, 50, 70mm) you can get a unit with the 14mm and buy an extra 30 for around 4k. with the 70mm lenses it might be good at realllly long range. |
|
I think the RS64 35mm would be a good choice then. I use it as a hand held and although it is not shaped for the hand it works well. In addition it will give you a great rifle scope when the need arises.
|
|
|
Rich_V...thanks for the input. Where I typically hunt, the treeline will be 200+ yards away and the bobcats will a lot of the times climb up in the trees where you cannot see them with night vision. They get hung up at that point and do not come into the call. We are not shooting them that far though. If we realize one is out there, we typically drive over there and shoot them from 50 yards with a D-740.
The issue is that right now with the LS64 it is hard to ID if it is a buzzard, bobcat, or hot tree branch at distance and I waste a lot of time following up on false positives. This is what I'm trying to solve and may not be possible, but I would think having optical magnification on a 640 core would improve the situation dramatically. The dang trees in South Texas during 90 degree heat do not play nice with thermal |
|
Quoted:
Rich_V...thanks for the input. Where I typically hunt, the treeline will be 200+ yards away and the bobcats will a lot of the times climb up in the trees where you cannot see them with night vision. They get hung up at that point and do not come into the call. We are not shooting them that far though. If we realize one is out there, we typically drive over there and shoot them from 50 yards with a D-740. The issue is that right now with the LS64 it is hard to ID if it is a buzzard, bobcat, or hot tree branch at distance and I waste a lot of time following up on false positives. This is what I'm trying to solve and may not be possible, but I would think having optical magnification on a 640 core would improve the situation dramatically. The dang trees in South Texas during 90 degree heat do not play nice with thermal View Quote OK that gives a bit more detail. A bobcat is a lot smaller than a person particularly when crouched up in a tree so thermal ID even at 200 yards is a bit of a reach. I can also see how having everything still warm from a hot day would make detection a problem. From my limited knowledge you can: Get closer to your target Wait for things to cool off, i.e. hunt later at night or early morning assuming it cools off in your part of Texas. Use alternate technology - high magnification night vision Get ready to spend some $$$$ on a big chunk of Germanium. Perhaps shooting pigs would be a cheaper pastime? Tastier too! |
|
|
|
That PAS-13 looks sick! Well, I just bought a used M18 640 with 3x magnifier from Mod Armory for $8k Pretty good price and timing. It should be here by Thursday for testing. Thanks for the help and let me know if you want to buy my LS64.
|
|
Quoted:
That PAS-13 looks sick! Well, I just bought a used M18 640 with 3x magnifier from Mod Armory for $8k Pretty good price and timing. It should be here by Thursday for testing. Thanks for the help and let me know if you want to buy my LS64. View Quote That's a SWEET (!!!) setup at an INCREDIBLE price! $8k for the M18 **and** 3x magnifier?!?! Wow. Do they have another? I'd be in for one of those! Calling... You got the only one... bass turd |
|
Sorry Horta. You want to trade for your scope? Haha.
Does anyone know if this DVR will work with the M18? Do I need one of the optional cable packages? http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/Thermal-and-Digital-Night-Vision-Mini-DVR-p/unv-mdvr.htm I called and emailed them but no response yet. |
|
|
Quoted:
My BHS-XR can tell a skunk from a cat at that range. My cat really appreciates that fact. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I can ID and clearly discern the difference between a rabbit and a possum at 200 meters. My BHS-XR can tell a skunk from a cat at that range. My cat really appreciates that fact. Which lens do you have on that bad boy?! That's a nice rig. |
|
Quoted:
Which lens do you have on that bad boy?! That's a nice rig. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can ID and clearly discern the difference between a rabbit and a possum at 200 meters. My BHS-XR can tell a skunk from a cat at that range. My cat really appreciates that fact. Which lens do you have on that bad boy?! That's a nice rig. I have 35 & 65. You lose a lot of FOV with 65, but ID range is much better for small stuff like that. |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.