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Rich_V
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Posted: 11/5/2013 5:58:36 PM
[Last Edit: 11/5/2013 6:25:56 PM by Rich_V]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
So the thermal bug has bitten me but the price for the FLIR rifle scopes @ > $10k are all out of my budget.
This leaves me looking for other options.

My requirements are:
OK for use up to 308 class rifle/recoil
336×256 pixel core (would like better but not going to happen at my price point)
30Hz or better
Quality build - don't want a 'disposable' scope at this price so good warranty, company, reputation etc.
Able to serve as a hand held monocular in a secondary role to a weapon sight. This will be a trade off on native magnification vs field of view. I would like a usable 6x for use as a rifle scope so I'm thinking 3x native and 2x digital with a 336×256 pixel core


In my limited searching I found a number of what appear to be very similar scopes:
Armasight Zeus 3 336-60 Thermal Imaging Rifles Scope 42 mm Lens 3X Magnification 336x256 (17µm) Core 60 Hz


ATN ThOR-336-3X 3X (60Hz)


Morovision TTWS -Tactical Thermal Weapons Sight


There are a few other brands with a similar housing & price.

For thermal in the $6k price range these are the options I found.

Questions:
They all look very similar in design and all claim to be USA manufacture. Are they all independent builds or are they just different versions by the same manufacturer?

Quality differences between brands? All have a 1 year warranty except Armasight which comes with a 2 year warranty.

Are any of these worth the $6k from a durability standpoint? (not Marine proof just hunting/field use)

Did I miss any other make in this price/category?

If I can get a good scope for what I'm looking for I will buy it, if the quality is not there yet at this price point I'll wait.
Tough times breed strong people, Strong people create good times, Good times breed weak people, Weak people create tough times
DEERSNIPER
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Posted: 11/5/2013 8:37:50 PM
I would avoid atn and Gsci.
Heineken
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Posted: 11/5/2013 8:45:37 PM
Optics planet has an 11% coupon code running now in case whatever you decide is available there.
CTM1
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Posted: 11/5/2013 10:01:32 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DEERSNIPER:
I would avoid atn and Gsci.


Why? Their customer service issues have been discussed at length here and I would assume the OP has read them.

Now as far as product goes I have not read a single horror story about ATN's thermals to date. In fact almost every story I have read has been positive with regards to their thermal offerings and in particular to their THOR units.
The only real complaints I have ever read about was regarding minor software issues/upgrades.
There have been comments from customers who did not buy enough magnification but that is not an ATN issue.
tkp401119
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Posted: 11/5/2013 10:10:17 PM
[Last Edit: 11/5/2013 10:33:32 PM by tkp401119]
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz
KyleO
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Posted: 11/6/2013 3:28:20 AM
I own a ThOR. It brings the death.....and a smile to my face. No issues with over a year of biweekly usage.
bigtek
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Posted: 11/6/2013 5:16:21 AM
I returned my Thor 320 1x and have a 3x waiting at the house for me. I can't wait to get back home next month to run some hunts on it. I have another 1x that will be going in for the switch also.

I ordered the LaRue LT270 as an upgrade for the questionable ARMS mount on them.

Hey tkp, looking forward for you to update us on how you liked the 3x!

[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By tkp401119:
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz

tkp401119
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Posted: 11/6/2013 9:28:00 AM
Will do bigtek!
Heineken
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Posted: 11/6/2013 12:23:11 PM
[Last Edit: 11/6/2013 8:22:06 PM by Heineken]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By tkp401119:
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz


I was looking at this as well...I think the difference is the 336 core is a full size thor and the 320 is the thor mini. If you bring up the pages for both of them, every spec is pretty mush the same accept look at the weight, the 336 core one (cheaper one) weighs a lot more. This is just from my personal research though.

Also the more expensive one has a 50mm lens vs the 30mm lens on the other

Also just my 2 cents, I have heard lots of good things about the Thors, and I have an OTS-X that I have had for a week now and i love the it. It blows away the flir PS32 i had in every aspect. The more i use it the more i am loving it.
Starcraftmlg
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Posted: 11/6/2013 2:32:43 PM
You mean you guys don't follow up with night vision?
ncorry
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Posted: 11/6/2013 3:28:22 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Heineken:
Originally Posted By tkp401119:
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz


I was looking at this as well...I think the difference is the 336 core is a full size thor and the 320 is the thor mini. If you bring up the pages for both of them, every spec is pretty mush the same accept look at the weight, the 336 core one (cheaper one) weighs a lot more. This is just from my personal research though..


I wish like hell they'd get the specs on the product's specific web page to match the specs listed on the same product's spec sheet. The 336 3X 60 Hz is listed with a LxWxH of 262X94X73mm on the web page and 203x69x73mm on the spec sheet. Evidently, it has a 30mm lens, while the 320 3x 60Hz has a 50mm lens. At least according to the specs posted on ATN's site and spec sheets.
Rich_V
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Posted: 11/6/2013 5:20:34 PM
[Last Edit: 11/6/2013 5:21:49 PM by Rich_V]
Thanks all for your input.

So far the only experience is with the ATN Thor scopes, mostly positive. The Armasight Zeus scopes look very interesting, 2 year warranty, remote switch, 42 mm lens at the $6k price point but it is a very new company.

Some more questions
Is there a visual difference between 30 & 60Hz? Not much difference in price between the two display rates.

What are your suggestions & experience with the native magnification vs. ability to see and resolve targets?

Is the native 3x lens useful when zoomed to 6x digitally, or 9x? I would like to see and target coyote/small deer at 200 yards or so with positive ID.

No one has any idea if all of these similar looking scopes are really unique designs and not some variation of models made by one supplier?

I was hoping some of our “expert” posters (Dino, cj7hawk, SkyPup) would give some advice.
Tough times breed strong people, Strong people create good times, Good times breed weak people, Weak people create tough times
Heineken
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Posted: 11/6/2013 7:53:22 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ncorry:
Originally Posted By Heineken:
Originally Posted By tkp401119:
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz


I was looking at this as well...I think the difference is the 336 core is a full size thor and the 320 is the thor mini. If you bring up the pages for both of them, every spec is pretty mush the same accept look at the weight, the 336 core one (cheaper one) weighs a lot more. This is just from my personal research though..


I wish like hell they'd get the specs on the product's specific web page to match the specs listed on the same product's spec sheet. The 336 3X 60 Hz is listed with a LxWxH of 262X94X73mm on the web page and 203x69x73mm on the spec sheet. Evidently, it has a 30mm lens, while the 320 3x 60Hz has a 50mm lens. At least according to the specs posted on ATN's site and spec sheets.


Ya I agree, you would think they would get that sorted out. Definitely confusing as hell the way it is now.
Heineken
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Posted: 11/6/2013 7:56:09 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Thanks all for your input.

So far the only experience is with the ATN Thor scopes, mostly positive. The Armasight Zeus scopes look very interesting, 2 year warranty, remote switch, 42 mm lens at the $6k price point but it is a very new company.

Some more questions
Is there a visual difference between 30 & 60Hz? Not much difference in price between the two display rates.

What are your suggestions & experience with the native magnification vs. ability to see and resolve targets?

Is the native 3x lens useful when zoomed to 6x digitally, or 9x? I would like to see and target coyote/small deer at 200 yards or so with positive ID.

No one has any idea if all of these similar looking scopes are really unique designs and not some variation of models made by one supplier?

I was hoping some of our “expert” posters (Dino, cj7hawk, SkyPup) would give some advice.


the 30 vs 60 hz, the difference will be noticeable when viewing moving target at longer ranges.
BushmanLA
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Posted: 11/6/2013 8:28:19 PM
I have the ATN ThOR 640 2.5X and love it. Some issues with reboot on recoil that have supposedly been fixed, still need to send it in for the fix but it happens so rarely that I'm procrastinating.

I used a 320 2X for some time before I got the 640 and it was a good deal too. Half the cost but half the resolution. A 320 2X is generally good enough, a 640 is just holy cow awesome.

That Zeus looks interesting though.
Rich_V
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Posted: 11/6/2013 8:38:48 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BushmanLA:
I have the ATN ThOR 640 2.5X and love it. Some issues with reboot on recoil that have supposedly been fixed, still need to send it in for the fix but it happens so rarely that I'm procrastinating.

I used a 320 2X for some time before I got the 640 and it was a good deal too. Half the cost but half the resolution. A 320 2X is generally good enough, a 640 is just holy cow awesome.

That Zeus looks interesting though.


How is the field of view @ 2.5x for scanning a field?
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SkyPup
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Posted: 11/6/2013 9:11:32 PM
A 50mm lens with a 320 core is going to be awesome out to 250+ yards, a 640 core with a 50mm lens will be awesome almost double that.
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BushmanLA
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Posted: 11/6/2013 9:19:53 PM
For me the 2.5x is just right. Every so often I get get a charge/run through situation with hogs and it is a bit difficult to deal with at 2.5x, but in general it isn't so bad. I rarely use the digital zoom, shots out to 100 yards don't really need it. Scanning a broad field is easy peasy with any thermal, targets stand out so drastically that you can scan fairly quickly. Detection range is what really matters, I can spot deer sized animals out to 900 yards, they are just specs at that range but they are glowing specs that stand out pretty well.


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Posted: 11/6/2013 10:33:29 PM
Remember 320x240 is not 1/2 the resolution of 640x480.

It's 1/4 the resolution at 1/2 the cost.

When you cut 1/2 of the vertical resolution and 1/2 of the horizontal resolution you get 1/4 total pixels.

Look at the 160x120 compared to the 640 makes you wonder how it produces a useable image, ( older mx-1 thermals used this resolution and worked I used one for a short time)

BushmanLA
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Posted: 11/6/2013 10:39:19 PM
Whoa whoa whoa.

It's 1/4 the amount of pixels, but half the resolution.


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Posted: 11/6/2013 11:09:50 PM
[Last Edit: 11/6/2013 11:10:56 PM by SkyPup]
My 320 core FLIR T-50 (50mm lens) works almost as good as both the 640 core T-60 (60mm lens) and T-70 (35mm lens) do out to 200 yards with the same ACOG 4X TA02 on all three of them, after that the 640 core is better, but 95% of all my shots are less than 200 yards. Using an Eotech and 3X magnifier, all three are pretty similar out to that distance too.

The 640 cores can take higher magnifications before pixelation becomes a problem though.

The T-75 with the 100mm lens really should really come on its own with higher magnifications and longer ranges.
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Hard_ware
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Posted: 11/6/2013 11:47:24 PM
[Last Edit: 11/7/2013 12:20:56 AM by Hard_ware]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BushmanLA:
Whoa whoa whoa.

It's 1/4 the amount of pixels, but half the resolution.




OK

The size of video when using the international standard H.261 is 352 x 288 for the Common Image Format (CIF) format and 176 x 144 for the (Quarter CIF)
Based on what you are saying QIF would be half image format ?
But its not, it's called quarter image format because it's 1/4 the resolution or pixels.
640x480 commonly called VGA
320x240 commonly called QVGA yes Quarter VGA not 1/2 VGA
I know if you divide by 2 its appears as half the resolution, but not called that.


I guess I am just old school


It's marketing calling it 1/2 resolution to make it seem much closer to the higher resolution, when its actually 1/4

here is Wiki Link display resolutions are listed

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Posted: 11/7/2013 5:39:45 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By tkp401119:
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz


You are absolutely correct. We are using a different Fir sensor which allows us to get better magnification with smaller diameter germanium lens. You would be surprised how expensive these germanium lens are. I personally would recommend the Thor 336 3x. If you have any questions or want a special deal contact me.

Thank you
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Posted: 11/7/2013 5:40:22 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By bigtek:
I returned my Thor 320 1x and have a 3x waiting at the house for me. I can't wait to get back home next month to run some hunts on it. I have another 1x that will be going in for the switch also.

I ordered the LaRue LT270 as an upgrade for the questionable ARMS mount on them.

Hey tkp, looking forward for you to update us on how you liked the 3x!

Originally Posted By tkp401119:
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz



Do you have the RMA #, I can look into it and get it out to you sooner.
50Calbeast
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Posted: 11/7/2013 5:42:06 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Heineken:
Originally Posted By tkp401119:
I just bought a ThOR 320 3x that I'll be putting to the test this weekend Did they just start offering a 336 core? Why is the 336 core cheaper than the 320? It looks like the lens is different even though they are both 3x.

336 core 3x mag 60hz - $6,499 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-336-3x-60hz

320 core 3x mag 60 hz - $8,199 retail
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz


I was looking at this as well...I think the difference is the 336 core is a full size thor and the 320 is the thor mini. If you bring up the pages for both of them, every spec is pretty mush the same accept look at the weight, the 336 core one (cheaper one) weighs a lot more. This is just from my personal research though.

Also the more expensive one has a 50mm lens vs the 30mm lens on the other


Thank you and yes the weight information is incorrect. I apologize for the inconvenience. We are updating our entire site so please be patient and all this info would be updated shortly.
Also just my 2 cents, I have heard lots of good things about the Thors, and I have an OTS-X that I have had for a week now and i love the it. It blows away the flir PS32 i had in every aspect. The more i use it the more i am loving it.

50Calbeast
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Posted: 11/7/2013 5:45:16 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Thanks all for your input.

So far the only experience is with the ATN Thor scopes, mostly positive. The Armasight Zeus scopes look very interesting, 2 year warranty, remote switch, 42 mm lens at the $6k price point but it is a very new company.

Some more questions
Is there a visual difference between 30 & 60Hz? Not much difference in price between the two display rates.

What are your suggestions & experience with the native magnification vs. ability to see and resolve targets?

Is the native 3x lens useful when zoomed to 6x digitally, or 9x? I would like to see and target coyote/small deer at 200 yards or so with positive ID.

No one has any idea if all of these similar looking scopes are really unique designs and not some variation of models made by one supplier?

I was hoping some of our “expert” posters (Dino, cj7hawk, SkyPup) would give some advice.


With all my experience the only time you would notice a big difference between 30 and 60hz is if you are in a helicopter or in a car going more than 20+ mph. 30hz is still plenty smooth.

If you use our INVC tool, where you can see the distance chart. Thor 336 with a 3x magnification would offer you excellent detection range at 200 yards. I think ThermalOutfitters has great images showing deer at different ranges.

thank you!
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