This really pisses me off on so many levels so many different reasons.

As we have learned, BAE doesn't want hunters using their scopes, bad for their image it seems, but they have no problem selling them to Pakistan!?!

ITAR Restrictions?  One of the most sure fire ways I can think of to get the good NV/Thermal stuff in the hands of bad guys who are actively right now trying to kill our guys, is to sell it to Pakistan, but that's OK lets do it.  Oh and while we're at it, let's slander a Marine Medal of Honor recipient.


BAE Systems: Bad Corporate Ethics and Selling Out The Warfighter
by Bill Janson on November 30, 2011

Military.com - Kit Up! - Article

I was having a good day yesterday prototyping some new products, until I read the article about BAE Systems and Marine Sgt. Dakota Meyer on WSJ Article. This article got me really worked up.  Sgt. Meyer (a Marine Medal of Honor recipient for actions in Afghanistan) is suing defense giant BAE Systems for defamation of character.

Basically, the suit states that after Sgt. Meyer voiced his objections to BAE management about their attempts to sell advanced thermal scopes to Pakistan, his supervisor contacted the DoD to tell them that Sgt. Meyers was mentally unstable and had issues with drinking.  This blocked Sgt. Meyer from obtaining a job with one of BAE’s competitors. I’m not even going to get into the blatant disrespect his supervisor (also a former Marine) showed a fellow Marine and an MOH recipient, but I am going to talk about the more pressing issue – Defense companies making the decision to let greed and profit trump common sense and the safety of our Men and Women who are serving in combat zones.

BAE was attempting to sell advanced thermal sniper scopes to the Pakistani government, according to the law suit. Sights that are superior in technology to what our own military personnel are currently using. Is it legal? Yes. Is it crossing the line into irresponsible? Absolutely. Technically speaking, Pakistan is an ally of the US. But, as they say, “if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck …” Why sell game changing technology to a country that, in my humble opinion, would have no issues letting that equipment be used against our own. We’re not talking about soft goods (i.e. nylon pouches) we’re talking about technology that could give the bad guys an upper hand over the good guys. So why would a company make that decision? Simple … money. In my own experience, I passed up the opportunity to make hundreds of thousands of dollars in profit by selling firearms to a Middle East government. Once I found out who the end user was, I respectfully withdrew my bid. It was more important to me to be able to sleep at night, then to make a bunch of cash knowing that those firearms would most likely end up in the wrong hands and be used against us. Was the deal legal? Of course. But I just couldn’t do it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a capitalist and encourage profits for corporations. More profits usually equates to more jobs. But, you can still make a profit and have some personal convictions and integrity.

My favorite excerpt from the article is what BAE stated, “Mr. Roehrkasse, the BAE spokesman, said the decision to sell defense equipment is made by the State Department, not BAE.” No, sir, you are incorrect. The decision of what CAN be sold or exported is decided by the State Department. The decision to actually SELL defense equipment to a foreign government is solely and 100% up to the company selling that equipment.

I’m not calling for a boycott of BAE Systems or any of its brands. More than not, boycotts just end up negatively affecting the employees who have nothing to do with the corporation’s decisions. Even though BAE is a foreign (UK) company, it does employ thousands of Americans. But, I did want you all to realize that BAE Systems, who is supposedly in the business of protecting us, really is more concerned about profits than its corporate ethics. I don’t really know how to change the industry, but as veterans and citizens of this great country, we need to start demanding an ethical high ground for our defense contractors.

Check out the latest NY Times write up on increasing tension with Pakistan. There’s a reason we didn’t let Pakistan know we were going after UBL.

From back in March: “BAE Systems admitted Monday to knowingly making false statements to U.S. investigators to hide its failure to ensure compliance with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.” Click here for the full story.  What do you think? Hit the like button and spread the word.

Kit Up! contributor Bill Janson is a former Recon Marine and is the founder of Eleven 10, a tactical gear manufacturer.

Read more: http://kitup.military.com/2011/11/bae-systems-%e2%80%93-greed-trumps.html#ixzz1fCYZNnXG
Kit Up!

The only thing thermal I would sell Pakistan is some wool blankets. They hid OBL from us for years. No way in hell they should get even close to this gear. Gen 2 ATN night vision would be all they got. They are not our friends. They just like the money in aid we give them. Their politicians call us worse than the devil in public but behind closed doors have their hand out.

Well done write up. Thanks for posting it. I had no idea anyone would even contemplate giving these guys anything even close to that level of technology.

How did Pakistan gets nukes anyway? Russia or chinese commie traitors like the Rosenbergs?

While I must agree with most of what has been said, I also suspect that the personal disagreement with the sale of TWS to Pakistan is pretty much based on a belief that thermal sights are some kind of un-accessible technology for countries like Pakistan. Well, unfortunately they aren't, just refer to the Foreign Night Vision thread for reference about what can Pakistan's best buddy China offer these days. You can be pretty sure that if Pakistanis really want TWS, then they will get them one way or another, be it from BAe OASYS or Hioptic.

My sympathy for Mr.Meyer, though, looks like a man of integrity..

The Chinese sell to anyone with money. Most other country's know better than to do this. Especially with a country such as Pakistan that is armed with nukes and led by a bunch of Muslim religious fanatics. But I agree with you, if we won't sell it to them somebody else will. Sad, but I don't see it stopping anytime soon. We need a better system than ITAR which seems to hurt normal commerce from legitimate businessmen. No reason why Gen 3 can't be sold to friendly countries as long as they have appropriate laws in place concerning export.

The XR-5 is a damn good tube and can already be bought by Europeans. The only reason Photonis gets away with the outrageous prices is lack of competition. Price seems the main reason many want US tubes across the pond and performance has little to do with it. They already can get very nice tubes. You just need a second mortgage on your home to pay for it. Somebody Que the Chinese. Wait... they already make night vision tubes.
(Coming soon to a Wally World near you)

the part in red says it all.  CoC prevents me from saying what I really think about BAE


%*&#  

Western education system training and hiring a Pakistani national with a high IQ.


Khaaaaaannnnnn!!!!!!!!

In case people are unaware, BAE has had threads pulled from THIS forum and others, bec they dont want pics out there of their scopes with hunters.   They also refuse to sell them to civilians even though there is no law against it.

The other thing that gets me is that, while I'm not sure exactly what scopes they were, the article says they are better/more advanced than what the US is fielding.  I doubt they could get that from China.

Bingo ! We have a winner ! I did not want to bring that up and I won't go into detail on it. We all know how many Brits feel about guns and hunting (not all Brits). It is just public PR policy so they don't align themselves with the Evil US gun laws and hunters. I understand it regardless of the fact I don't agree with it.

In the UK night vision forum you can not even post a pic of dead animals. It scares the liberals who think their meat comes from the grocery store and nothing gets killed. It all comes with Styrofoam trays and plastic wrap. Made that way ! No animals were harmed to get that meat.

Let's see if they change their tune when the shooting stops in Afganistan and business slows down.

Other sources mentioned it was actually the OASYS divison (BAe owned). They were most likely UNS-T forward attachment scopes or something of that kind. That would be a logical explanation as to why these were sourced from OASYS - I am not aware of any front attachment scopes offered by China thus far.

The fact is that the maker of the sensors which are often used in Chinese scopes (ULIS) is having many sensors in its portfolio which are in no way inferior to the ones produced by the US (640x480 FPA 17um pitch or even 1024x768 FPA). Still, the standard sensor offered by China is the 384x288 FPA 25um, maybe there are some export limits to China we are not aware of. Nevertheless, we are already talking about a reasonably advanced technology (ca 20% more coverage than L3 320x240 FPA), quite superior to what a normal US soldier outside of high-speed units carries.

Nothing really British about these, Dino. OASYS Technology is located in Manchester, NH, US of A. BAe is only the owner, just like of the BAe N.A. - Sanders Associates sitting next door in Nashua, NH (maker of the AN/ALR-94 electronic warfare system of the F-22A Raptor). I have doubts that BAe can talk too much into their export policy (just like they can't talk to the ALR-94 suite).

Given the amount of money US given to the Pakistani military as aid, I fail to see how this issue is somehow a bad thing? I mean US has put billions after billions of dollars in to the Pakistani armed forces, so how come a British company doing what they do (sell stuff) is somehow immoral?

Where is the logic?

Jippo, I think the issue and what angers many of us it that our Government feels they can trust Pakistan with these scopes but their own citizens can't purchase one. We can sell these to some unstable religious fanatics but I can't use one to hunt ? Aside from the fact I don't think we should give Pakistan anything be it money or gear. Kill the bastards that blew up our buildings and if Pakistan does not like it tough. Let India turn their country into a parking lot for all I care. These people are nuts,have nukes and when somebody's playground get turned into a sheet of glass the world will say why didn't anybody do anything ?

Damned if you do something about it and damned if you don't. I would rather be damned with action rather than sitting at home waiting for some camel jockey to destroy what I love. BAE will not let any pictures of hunters using their scopes be it a subsidiary of BAE or not. Jagger Pro in the US used to sell them and had some cool videos of hog hunts. Guess what ? They can't be a distributor anymore because of the videos. That is what angers many. You don't mind your scope killing people but I can't use it to hunt with. It is just PR bullshit.

You'll trust the same Pakis that the US  Mil wouldn't trust to announce the raid on UBL's compound, but you won't trust AMERICAN CITIZENS who use the technology to hunt feral hogs, on US soil,  and such??!!!  That is the height of arrogance and illogic.  I could care less how much money we give Pakistan.  You don't think that is being reconsidered right now?

Even FLIR snapped to the idiocy of this, and has rendered un-restricted 30 HZ systems.  Us citizens have proven for years, that they respect the ITAR regs, and simply are NOT the vector for these devices getting into the hands of BG's.

What they did here and with Jaeger pro shows the disdain they have for Americans, but oh, Pakis are just fine, thanks  

ETA:  when they finally realize that they might have to ....gasp....sell to the commercial market (defense budget cuts are imminent) maybe then you'll see them suddenly start to patronize / pander to hunters.  My recommendation is to reward them with NOT buying their stuff.  Buy from FLIR instead.

Ooops , did a double tap

Exactly....or even be seen with one!

BAE doesn't do it. They strongly suggest to the dealer who sold the unit to use all his power to get the pics taken down. If not ? You won't be selling BAE products. It is done via political channels that way their hands stay clean. Just like they did with Jaegar Pro and his videos. Jaegar told them to pound sand and he no longer sells the products. They can't call ARF and say take these pictures down but they can apply pressure to dealers who may have influence to get the pictures taken down. Politics man... Happens every day.

When they get sold to LEO or the Mil they are told pics of dead animals are a no no . Can they enforce it ? No. They will just go after the dealer who sold it.

Oh!

I didn't get it....


I'll get me coat...

Nah, stay awhile ! The guys are just mad they are not allowed to own one. We really don't want to see Pakistan get them but most realize the Chinese will just sell it to them anyhow. Just poor policy and when defense budget shrinks I bet they change their mind. By that time everybody will be so angry they will just buy from Flir. Which will be who gets my money when the time comes.

Does FLIR make the newer style AN/PAS-13's that look like this:




I've seen the older style 13's by FLIR like this:

EDIT: I think this one is Raytheon actually, not FLIR




Or does FLIR have something different now?


EDIT2:
According to this, there are 3 vendors:
Raytheon, BAE and one I've never heard of: Finmeccanica subsidiary DRS in Palm Bay, FL

I wonder if Raytheon or Finmeccanica have any different policies?

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/pas-13-thermal-weapon-sights-on-order-03420/

AN/PAS-13A and B series were made by Raytheon (+ Zeiss under license)
AN/PAS-13C series is made by BAe
AN/PAS-13D series is made by DRS Technologies
AN/PAS-13E series is made by Raytheon
Each series consists of three types, (V)1 LTWS, (V)2 MTWS and (V)3 HTWS.

These are completely different designs and besides the common PAS-13 designation they have nothing in common, whatsoever.
They are usually ordered together under a single contract. Last contract of Army Contracting Command from 2011 saw orders of

9,001 AN/PAS-13E sights worth $68.7 mil
6,876 AN/PAS-13D sights worth $68.2 mil
6,000 AN/PAS-13C sights worth $58.0 mil