other dave , having you tried lowering the gain on your 7b ? that would probaily solve most of the problem you are experiencing. you can adjust the gain down and still have exceptional performance- just not optimum.

This is the 3rd installment on some NVD’s. (Actually more of a supplement to my first post on the D-760 and the Raptor 6X.)  The pics below are a view through the D-760 at 150M with a PEQ-2A used for target illumination and designation.  You must please excuse the average looking pics, I’m still getting used to the macro feature on my digi. Some shots turn out better than others.  The views here are NO WAY near the quality seen through the D-760.





The first shot shows the overall setup. The PEQ was set in it's low power setting for BOTH the illuminator and laser. The 2nd and third shots show the amber mil dot reticle with the PEQ laser imposed over the center. The location for these pics was up around 7,200ft and NO moon. It was an extremely DARK night and good tubes of 29 sig2noise of both my D-760 AND MUM were pressed to the limit without the aid of the PEQ.  It WAS DARK out here!

At the conclusion of this shoot, I shot two groups. This was the first time sighting in this particuliar D-760. In the pics, my target is on the far left and you can also see one at 200M in the background to right rear. The first 5 round group (top group) with this 6.8 SPC measures at 1.250" at 150M!! The second 4 round group measured at 1.5". I can tell you these shots were taken rapid fire (every 1 second) I'm STILL amazed at the ease of shooting in the dark with good gear!  Just amazing folks!!



I will be posting the different power settings comparisons with the PEQ-2A laser over at the IR Laser Comparison link.  www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=20&t=235434&page=4

Edited to add....A few folks wanted to know the make of my 6.8SPC.  It was made from Wes over at MSTN!  This platform shoots a 1/2 minute all day long, well at least during the day!!

*

Can somone tell me the difference between the ENVIS and the PVS 14?   I know the ENVIS does not have adjustable gain, but is this the only difference?  I believe the ENVIS uses the same head and weapons mounts as the PVS-14.  Is it as rugged?  Thanks.

envis is a system that utilizes a 10160 18mm anvis tube, and correct no adjustable gain, bad point on the envis is a digital switch- these two systems were clearly designed for diffrent uses- envis meant to be a low cost alternative to be used in usaf surviavl vest to give downed pilots a advantage for escape.
an/pvs-14 is designed to be handheld, weapon mountable, and or worn on the head. it also uses an 18 mm anvis module(thin-filmed) however it is configured to be a pinnacle unit (mx-11769)using a gated power supply and has the adjustable gain feature.

theres other factor that play into this, but this is a very gentle low technical comparison to answer your questions

Vic has been asking me to chime in with my ten cents and I figured now is the time to get in the mix.  Just a quickie for now.

I recently purchased a Select A D-760 from Vic and I must say that his comments about the picture not doing it justice are well founded.  In short: I CAN'T BELIEVE THE CLARITY OF THIS SCOPE.  I knew from the start that it is WAY above my skill level, but I don't care because I am going to have one heck of a time sharpening my skills!  Spent brass city baby!!!

Anyway, I am new to NV but have run my eyes through a few different types, Gen II, OmniV, PVS7's etc.  The D-760 is not even in the same universe!  It was almost magical the first night I tried it out.

While I have not shot with it yet (nor do I imagine I will soon as I live in Kalifornia), I will post some more feedback as well as scope specs when I get a chance.

If any of you are thinking of picking up some NV, please spend some time talking to Vic.  I have found him to be a knowledgable, credible, and stand up guy who comes through with high quality goods.  

A special thanks to every who has contributed to this thread and the IR comparison thread as well.  The comments/feedback/input has been a wealth of knowledge for many people I know including myself.

Freddy

Hey, if you know anything about flash suppressors and night vision, please look here:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=19&t=239237&page=1

I thought that it would be slightly off-topic on this thread, since the discussion here seems to be focusing on the night vision devices themselves.

Maybe you'll get an answer Muskrat, I asked the same question as the second post on this topic, and never got an answer.   Better luck to you.    I'd really like to know which muzzle device works the best with NVD.

Originally Posted By Victor: Originally Posted By KevinB: I dont use the PVS-14 for wpn mounted work. Very interested on your why's, like or dislikes on this configuration Kev?  You shoot with an NVD while head mounted?  I've had a hard time cheek-welding, more less a "chin" weld if I have to shoot with a helmet mounted NVD.  Nowadays all my shooting is done via my D-760 or Raptor 4x.  I usually walk around with the head mounted gear and when I see something that needs my attention, I then go to the Raptor or 760. Edited to add:  I actually have two configurations I shoot with, one for med to long range and one for short range.  I will post some pics here shortly.

You'r very lucky to have more than one NV unit,  I just have one and it stays on my head

It all depends upon the weapon - the C7CT, AR10T and boltguns are better served with a dediacted unit - the PVS-17 - or Aquilla, Raptor etc. We have Maxi-Kites (until their replacement) on all our GPMG's

For a carbines, rifles, and LMG's the head mount keeps the troop much more situationally aware and the PEQ is used for aiming - its not worth fiddle fucking (IMHO) with the cheek/chin weld trying to line up on a day sight.  Of course you need to constantly play with the systems to keep it use familiar and mkae is useful and not a hinderance - you have enough Oops's on te KD range let alone field firing or 'downrange' as it where, if they are not familiar with the natural point of the weapon and where they will pick up THEIR laser.

Originally Posted By KevinB: It all depends upon the weapon - the C7CT, AR10T and boltguns are better served with a dediacted unit - the PVS-17 - or Aquilla, Raptor etc. We have Maxi-Kites (until their replacement) on all our GPMG's For a carbines, rifles, and LMG's the head mount keeps the troop much more situationally aware and the PEQ is used for aiming - its not worth fiddle fucking (IMHO) with the cheek/chin weld trying to line up on a day sight.  Of course you need to constantly play with the systems to keep it use familiar and mkae is useful and not a hinderance - you have enough Oops's on te KD range let alone field firing or 'downrange' as it where, if they are not familiar with the natural point of the weapon and where they will pick up THEIR laser.

What will replace the MK's Kev?  Raptors?

Good points on the SA of the troops while using head mounts.  I'vs always said that since I got VERY used to my laser on my M4 I hardly use ANY sighting devices at all.  I keep the carbine in my lower shoulder and my head up and let the laser do the talking.  Its second nature now to point and shoot within a 100m with this set up.  It feels like cheating!  As you basically said though, I feel one must constantly stay familiar with the setups, especially the night ones.  I still remember when I was FIRST learning to operate in the dark, it was VERY akward (at least for me). Lets face it, not matter what device is used (especially the 7's) ones depth perception is out of whack a bit.  I remember not too long ago, there was a rash of chopper and other air vehicle crashes blamed on NVD's and the lack of training thereof.

You also mention something that is RARELY talked about and that the training that is needed to pick up ones OWN laser in laser-tag type environment!  I never gave this too much thought due to the fact, in LE work, we might have just a few lasers at ANY given time.  Now on the battle field, I can't imagine the cordination and training involved to keep this all straight.  

Also...Ink, yea, been very lucky over the years to have saved my pennies and purchase some great gear, especially now with the prices soariiiing!

We had a Captain (a Ranger to boot ) fall down a mountain in Afghan after just saying - "this NV is great (PVS-14's) great view and great awareness - ahhhhhhh thump crash bang

My buddy broke a 7500 - just the vis laser, so it gave me a quick lessons learned as not to trust it - but yes in close it is really effective.

I have no idea what will replace the Kites - I know some people are buying the KAC UNS / PVS-22's, I know one idea was to wait for a hybrid thermal/II system.

Originally Posted By KevinB: We had a Captain (a Ranger to boot ) fall down a mountain in Afghan after just saying - "this NV is great (PVS-14's) great view and great awareness - ahhhhhhh thump crash bang My buddy broke a 7500 - just the vis laser, so it gave me a quick lessons learned as not to trust it - but yes in close it is really effective. I have no idea what will replace the Kites - I know some people are buying the KAC UNS / PVS-22's, I know one idea was to wait for a hybrid thermal/II system.

Ya know, not usually a good thing to go for a sled ride down a mountain! LOL
I take it the 14 did not come out ok!

Also, Not much talked about in the PVS-22 arena.  www.omnitechpartners.com/osti/CutSheets/uns.pdf  Can you tell me a bit more about the unit Kev?

tag

Originally Posted By Victor: Originally Posted By KevinB: We had a Captain (a Ranger to boot ) fall down a mountain in Afghan after just saying - "this NV is great (PVS-14's) great view and great awareness - ahhhhhhh thump crash bang My buddy broke a 7500 - just the vis laser, so it gave me a quick lessons learned as not to trust it - but yes in close it is really effective. I have no idea what will replace the Kites - I know some people are buying the KAC UNS / PVS-22's, I know one idea was to wait for a hybrid thermal/II system. Ya know, not usually a good thing to go for a sled ride down a mountain! LOL I take it the 14 did not come out ok! Also, Not much talked about in the PVS-22 arena.  www.omnitechpartners.com/osti/CutSheets/uns.pdf  Can you tell me a bit more about the unit Kev?

I believe IPSC_GUY has some experience with the OST UNS.Peter are you out there?

Yes I have some experience with the UNS. It is the best thing I have used to date. Our set up was in conjunction with a Leupold M1 LRT 3.5 to 10 mounted on an SPR. The UNS was in front of the Scope. The clarity was there as was the light gathering. We were shooting suppressed at steel plates to 250 meters and it was cool to fire, see the spark from the bullet hitting the target through the scope / UNS then hear the clang as the sound wave came back to us. It was really easy set up. My buddies wife had never fired an AR before that night and she put 9 out of 10 on target with no troubles.

NOW there was no POA POI shift as with using a 14 in front of the scope. This is the UNS big secret. What they do is optically correct the slight angle of the light path in the unit so that what you are looking at is really optically in line with what you are seeing. As I understand it, there is a SLIGHT shift of image with any GEN 3 image tube. The UNS corrects for this optically some how. I have called ad talked to OST and they wouldn’t even hint at how they do it. I want one of these but the $8500.00 price tag is at the moment out of reach for me.

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

Originally Posted By IPSC_GUY: Yes I have some experience with the UNS. It is the best thing I have used to date. Our set up was in conjunction with a Leupold M1 LRT 3.5 to 10 mounted on an SPR. The UNS was in front of the Scope. The clarity was there as was the light gathering. We were shooting suppressed at steel plates to 250 meters and it was cool to fire, see the spark from the bullet hitting the target through the scope / UNS then hear the clang as the sound wave came back to us. It was really easy set up. My buddies wife had never fired an AR before that night and she put 9 out of 10 on target with no troubles. NOW there was no POA POI shift as with using a 14 in front of the scope. This is the UNS big secret. What they do is optically correct the slight angle of the light path in the unit so that what you are looking at is really optically in line with what you are seeing. As I understand it, there is a SLIGHT shift of image with any GEN 3 image tube. The UNS corrects for this optically some how. I have called ad talked to OST and they wouldn’t even hint at how they do it. I want one of these but the $8500.00 price tag is at the moment out of reach for me. IPSC_GUY SIERRA II ALPHA

8,500? OUCH!  So this same image correction will do the same for parallax problems with a day scope looking through it as well? Also, (since I know VERY little about this system) is the day scope always behind the UNS? Is that how the system works?  I guess what I am asking is, I would love a run down on how this unit operates.  Is it a true NVD in all respects?  Can you use the unit WITHOUT a day scope?  Does it have any maginification on its own or is it just a image corrective NVD intensifier?  Either way, very interesting!!  I DO see the advantages of using this unit, especially for maintaining zero of the day scope, no aparent parrallax issues, etc.  

Oh, I do have one other question...Normally there is quite a bit of light loss with a day scope and a NVD behind the scope due the objective and F-Stop. Because this unit is in FRONT of the day scope objective, is the light loss less?  I am also a bit confused on how the day scope see's through the UNS.  So the day scope now actually magnifies the image that is seen on the UNS? Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted By IPSC_GUY: Yes I have some experience with the UNS. It is the best thing I have used to date. Our set up was in conjunction with a Leupold M1 LRT 3.5 to 10 mounted on an SPR. The UNS was in front of the Scope. The clarity was there as was the light gathering. We were shooting suppressed at steel plates to 250 meters and it was cool to fire, see the spark from the bullet hitting the target through the scope / UNS then hear the clang as the sound wave came back to us. It was really easy set up. My buddies wife had never fired an AR before that night and she put 9 out of 10 on target with no troubles. NOW there was no POA POI shift as with using a 14 in front of the scope. This is the UNS big secret. What they do is optically correct the slight angle of the light path in the unit so that what you are looking at is really optically in line with what you are seeing. As I understand it, there is a SLIGHT shift of image with any GEN 3 image tube. The UNS corrects for this optically some how. I have called ad talked to OST and they wouldn’t even hint at how they do it. I want one of these but the $8500.00 price tag is at the moment out of reach for me. IPSC_GUY SIERRA II ALPHA

WOW... I just visit Omnitech's new website... pretty amazing the new "DUNS" unit!!! I just could imagine the price of that thing! (maybe 20,000?).
Anyway, do you know the price of their MK-880 unit? Is this a company that accepts bussines from civilians? A while ago I send them an e-mail inquiring for their UNS and they never got back to me...

UNS

8,500? OUCH!  So this same image correction will do the same for parallax problems with a day scope looking through it as well? Also, (since I know VERY little about this system) is the day scope always behind the UNS? Is that how the system works?  I guess what I am asking is, I would love a run down on how this unit operates.  Is it a true NVD in all respects?  Can you use the unit WITHOUT a day scope?  Does it have any maginification on its own or is it just a image corrective NVD intensifier?  Either way, very interesting!!  I DO see the advantages of using this unit, especially for maintaining zero of the day scope, no aparent parrallax issues, etc.   Oh, I do have one other question...Normally there is quite a bit of light loss with a day scope and a NVD behind the scope due the objective and F-Stop. Because this unit is in FRONT of the day scope objective, is the light loss less?  I am also a bit confused on how the day scope see's through the UNS.  So the day scope now actually magnifies the image that is seen on the UNS? Thanks for the info!

Yep Image correction with no magnification. Yes it is a working NVD in all other aspects. Simply looking through the thing you have the impresion of looking through a scaled down PVS 4. The Finish on it is a bit rough but it is a military optic.

It has a brightness control with a ton of variable range. It also has a lot of focus range as well. Light loss? Since it is in front and has an f1.15 lens it gathers a good bit of light, BUT It does have some fall off at higher magnifications.  Your day sight is looking at the exit pupil of the UNS, which by the way is 40mm. THAT is HUGE ! ! !  Now it seemed to like 6X the best on the day optic. I don't know why but it did. Much above that and you could start to see the snow of the SNR of the unit.

The tube was a nice blem free 10160 tube. When I found that out I tried to buy a housing from OST and they just laughed at me.

Oh yeah this thing worked SUPER in front of a TA 31 ACOG.

All in all if I ever find $8500 laying around this will be the frist thing I buy.

At the moment I am using my 14 behind both my aimpoint and my TA 31 ACOG. The ACOG is mounted on a LMT MRP so I have minimal POI changes when I move the ACOG forward on the rail to make space for the ACOG.

When I finish my .308 bolt gun it is going to have a long rail and the M1 LRT will be mounted in ARMS 22 rins and I will do the same thing there. Unless of course I find $8500 in the couch cushions then I will buy an UNS. till then I am moving my day optics back and forth. Not the best solution but it works to a certain degree.

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

Originally Posted By IPSC_GUY: 8,500? OUCH!  So this same image correction will do the same for parallax problems with a day scope looking through it as well? Also, (since I know VERY little about this system) is the day scope always behind the UNS? Is that how the system works?  I guess what I am asking is, I would love a run down on how this unit operates.  Is it a true NVD in all respects?  Can you use the unit WITHOUT a day scope?  Does it have any maginification on its own or is it just a image corrective NVD intensifier?  Either way, very interesting!!  I DO see the advantages of using this unit, especially for maintaining zero of the day scope, no aparent parrallax issues, etc.   Oh, I do have one other question...Normally there is quite a bit of light loss with a day scope and a NVD behind the scope due the objective and F-Stop. Because this unit is in FRONT of the day scope objective, is the light loss less?  I am also a bit confused on how the day scope see's through the UNS.  So the day scope now actually magnifies the image that is seen on the UNS? Thanks for the info! Yep Image correction with no magnification. Yes it is a working NVD in all other aspects. Simply looking through the thing you have the impresion of looking through a scaled down PVS 4. The Finish on it is a bit rough but it is a military optic. It has a brightness control with a ton of variable range. It also has a lot of focus range as well. Light loss? Since it is in front and has an f1.15 lens it gathers a good bit of light, BUT It does have some fall off at higher magnifications.  Your day sight is looking at the exit pupil of the UNS, which by the way is 40mm. THAT is HUGE ! ! !  Now it seemed to like 6X the best on the day optic. I don't know why but it did. Much above that and you could start to see the snow of the SNR of the unit. The tube was a nice blem free 10160 tube. When I found that out I tried to buy a housing from OST and they just laughed at me. Oh yeah this thing worked SUPER in front of a TA 31 ACOG. All in all if I ever find $8500 laying around this will be the frist thing I buy. At the moment I am using my 14 behind both my aimpoint and my TA 31 ACOG. The ACOG is mounted on a LMT MRP so I have minimal POI changes when I move the ACOG forward on the rail to make space for the ACOG. When I finish my .308 bolt gun it is going to have a long rail and the M1 LRT will be mounted in ARMS 22 rins and I will do the same thing there. Unless of course I find $8500 in the couch cushions then I will buy an UNS. till then I am moving my day optics back and forth. Not the best solution but it works to a certain degree. IPSC_GUY SIERRA II ALPHA

Hi ya again!,

So what is the main advantages of using this over lets say a D-760 which cost half as much at 4K and is a dedicated NV mildot reticle sniper type scope which has all the resolution one would need out to a 1000M?  I do understand for the troopers in the hot zone where no where to re-zero, this is an obvious huge advantage, just take off the UNS and presto you are back in business on the day optic.  
I like what I see, but that is a pretty big price tag and one seems to really have to be mission specific for the UNS. i.e. It seems really geared for the field troops?  Thanks much as always Pete for the valuable info!

Vic

Originally Posted By makkoo1974: Originally Posted By IPSC_GUY: Yes I have some experience with the UNS. It is the best thing I have used to date. Our set up was in conjunction with a Leupold M1 LRT 3.5 to 10 mounted on an SPR. The UNS was in front of the Scope. The clarity was there as was the light gathering. We were shooting suppressed at steel plates to 250 meters and it was cool to fire, see the spark from the bullet hitting the target through the scope / UNS then hear the clang as the sound wave came back to us. It was really easy set up. My buddies wife had never fired an AR before that night and she put 9 out of 10 on target with no troubles. NOW there was no POA POI shift as with using a 14 in front of the scope. This is the UNS big secret. What they do is optically correct the slight angle of the light path in the unit so that what you are looking at is really optically in line with what you are seeing. As I understand it, there is a SLIGHT shift of image with any GEN 3 image tube. The UNS corrects for this optically some how. I have called ad talked to OST and they wouldn’t even hint at how they do it. I want one of these but the $8500.00 price tag is at the moment out of reach for me. IPSC_GUY SIERRA II ALPHA WOW... I just visit Omnitech's new website... pretty amazing the new "DUNS" unit!!! I just could imagine the price of that thing! (maybe 20,000?). Anyway, do you know the price of their MK-880 unit? Is this a company that accepts bussines from civilians? A while ago I send them an e-mail inquiring for their UNS and they never got back to me...

I had a MK880, it came to me on a trade.It's a neat unit, same as ITT 6010.It's capable of accepting catadioptric objective lens from 135mm to 600mm.It's more for a camera crew than grunt.The unit is made of aluminium, and is heavy compared to the pvs14 or MUM.I was told by OST retail is $4500 with all camera attachments, the catadioptric lens start at $1000.Get a PVS 14 from ISPC_GUY, it's a better unit, with more accessories available.



135mm lens attached

Anyone know about these or this

I tried e-mailing Stano to see if they are water/weather resistant they want me to call ..

Originally Posted By Victor: Hello all, The 2nd part of my comparisons had to do with head mounting options.  The standard head mount harness that comes with the PVS-14's is lightweight, but I found after long periods of wear (2 hours or more) my temples would start to hurt.  I've talked with a few others and they had the same problem.  About a year ago, a few of my late night cigar smoking buddies that used to be on the "dark-side" of the house told my they used modified bicycle type helmets on several occasions when the Kevlar was too bulky and just too big.  This got me thinking so I went to my local Wallfart (I HATE THIS STORE BTW) and looked around at some mountain bike helmets.  I heard the pro-tec helmets were a good choice and they were grey in color as well.  (Best nighttime cammo IMHO anyways) Well after trying on a few, my flat head got the best of a good fit so I passed on the PT and started looking at the BELL brand.  The first one I tried fit perfect, so I paid the cheap Wallfart price of $21.00 bones and got the hell out of there! I had several GI flip-up wrap around helmet mounts laying around, so I decided to grind away on the BELL helmet foam to fit the helmet mount hooks. The original helmet also came with yellow chinstraps; I just used a permanent marker to take this out.  Well a picture tells a thousand words, so enough babble; here is what I've done. img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Clutch99/PICT0375.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Clutch99/PICT0377.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Clutch99/PICT0376.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Clutch99/PICT0370.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Clutch99/PICT0378.jpg I can tell you after 4 hours of continuous use, the helmet is a dream to wear while employing the PVS-14's. The full size 14 is a tiny bit forehead heavy and I would suggest maybe modifying the original head harness chinstrap to work with the BELL to gain a bit more rigidity. The PVS Mini-14 though is incredibly comfortable and I will not go back to the head-harness.  The only thing left to do is maybe knock off the brown color a bit with some gray paint schemes.   Well, I hope this might help you narrow your choice of mounting NVD's to ones head! Vic

Victor,
Thanks for the pics! I had asked about doing just this thing in this thread, www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=10&t=183845
I am going to do the same thing as soon as I can find a rhino mount and helmet mount for a good price.

Thanks again!
dave

How much of a point of impact (POI) change does a PVS14 make behind a EOTech, if both are mounted on the upper?

Also, is there any difference in POI if the 14 is head mounted?

I was thinking I was the catz nads with a pair of PVS7 D's...


Now Im starting to regret buying them in the first place...

Originally Posted By R-32: I was thinking I was the catz nads with a pair of PVS7 D's... Now Im starting to regret buying them in the first place...

...why? Because you can't weapon mount it?

Have you tried shooting with your -7's? Reflex/ red dot sights work great, and I'd rather have a dedicated setup for a magnified NV scope, so really, what are you missing out on?

Dave

BTW: it's not nearly as easy to run and shoot with a PVS14 mounted on a rifle as it is to shoot a rifle with -7's mounted on your head.

Hhmm...I may be in the correct forum now...I ran a search though failed to find an answer...any ideas?

I have two M-4's; both flat-top. I'm running one with an EOTech 552; the second with an ACOG 4x32. I would like to be able to swap a PVS-14 with these.

What would be the best mount for:

1) The PVS-14
2) The ACOG
3) The EOTech

Thanks!

Ed

Originally Posted By scuba_ed: Hhmm...I may be in the correct forum now...I ran a search though failed to find an answer...any ideas? I have two M-4's; both flat-top. I'm running one with an EOTech 552; the second with an ACOG 4x32. I would like to be able to swap a PVS-14 with these. What would be the best mount for: 1) The PVS-14 2) The ACOG 3) The EOTech Thanks! Ed

Try a USGI PVS 14 mount.Mount it behind the EO Tech and infront of the ACOG.

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Originally Posted By R-32: I was thinking I was the catz nads with a pair of PVS7 D's... Now Im starting to regret buying them in the first place... ...why? Because you can't weapon mount it? Have you tried shooting with your -7's? Reflex/ red dot sights work great, and I'd rather have a dedicated setup for a magnified NV scope, so really, what are you missing out on? Dave BTW: it's not nearly as easy to run and shoot with a PVS14 mounted on a rifle as it is to shoot a rifle with -7's mounted on your head.

Im looking at the Weapons mounted systems and thinking that my Coyote probs would be a heck of a lot more fun to try and handle.

I had PVS 5's and 7B's in the military, Both gave me really bad headaches after wearing them for a short time...(20 mins)

Im thinking now that I may want to sell my 7's and get a 14. I can head mount it, and weapons mount it...

Im also a Firefighter that does a lot of Rescue work ( Swift Water, and high angle) and the 7's are great for that, but I can see the 14 as a monocular as a better option...

Im still learning...In the Army I just used the stuff, did not care much about it..Saw the 7's here in the EE and picked them up...After I got them I was having big time second thoughts about keeping them, then night before last I went out into the hills with my father in law who has never had NV in his life... The shooting stars were cool and I had a hard time keeping up with him, he was like a little kid on the playground.  The 2 grand did not seem so bad then

Originally Posted By R-32: Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Originally Posted By R-32: I was thinking I was the catz nads with a pair of PVS7 D's... Now Im starting to regret buying them in the first place... ...why? Because you can't weapon mount it? Have you tried shooting with your -7's? Reflex/ red dot sights work great, and I'd rather have a dedicated setup for a magnified NV scope, so really, what are you missing out on? Dave BTW: it's not nearly as easy to run and shoot with a PVS14 mounted on a rifle as it is to shoot a rifle with -7's mounted on your head. Im looking at the Weapons mounted systems and thinking that my Coyote probs would be a heck of a lot more fun to try and handle. I had PVS 5's and 7B's in the military, Both gave me really bad headaches after wearing them for a short time...(20 mins) Im thinking now that I may want to sell my 7's and get a 14. I can head mount it, and weapons mount it... Im also a Firefighter that does a lot of Rescue work ( Swift Water, and high angle) and the 7's are great for that, but I can see the 14 as a monocular as a better option... Im still learning...In the Army I just used the stuff, did not care much about it..Saw the 7's here in the EE and picked them up...After I got them I was having big time second thoughts about keeping them, then night before last I went out into the hills with my father in law who has never had NV in his life... The shooting stars were cool and I had a hard time keeping up with him, he was like a little kid on the playground.  The 2 grand did not seem so bad then

I can see being a fire fighter having one eye available while using a 14 would be benificial!  For me personally I get very disorientated while using the 7's and in some cases a bit of nausea!  I am sure it's because of the depth preception issues.  

Your 2 grand as you mention WAS the good 'ol days I'm afraid!

Urban Ops:


I have two pair of PVS7's, an older Gen3 51lpmm pair and a newer pinnacle tube -D model. Frequently, I ride my MTB in a local forested county park at night with these on and upon exiting the trail I end up in an apartment complex. The remainder of the loop back to the trail head is on a street in a business district, and the streetlights are soo bright they trigger the brightness protection on the newer more sensitive goggles. This was never an issue with the older pair, and to be honest the street isn't really all that brightly lit.

What are you guys doing to help goggles that are too sensitive for your AO? If I put the daylight filter on, there isn't enough image to travel by safely. Maybe someone needs to come up with a polarized filter for the newer NVD's?? Something like what's on the Trijicon Reflex but holds settings better?

Dave

Dave,
 Im not sure what to tell you about the street lights. I dont think the LIF filter helps with them.

Maybe Pete or Victor might have some insight.

FREE

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Urban Ops: I have two pair of PVS7's, an older Gen3 51lpmm pair and a newer pinnacle tube -D model. Frequently, I ride my MTB in a local forested county park at night with these on and upon exiting the trail I end up in an apartment complex. The remainder of the loop back to the trail head is on a street in a business district, and the streetlights are soo bright they trigger the brightness protection on the newer more sensitive goggles. This was never an issue with the older pair, and to be honest the street isn't really all that brightly lit. What are you guys doing to help goggles that are too sensitive for your AO? If I put the daylight filter on, there isn't enough image to travel by safely. Maybe someone needs to come up with a polarized filter for the newer NVD's?? Something like what's on the Trijicon Reflex but holds settings better? Dave

Dave,

Is there a problem wearing the pinnacle's?  Does the brightness dim down too much?  I think you have the optimum set up with pinnacles?  

Originally Posted By Victor: Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Urban Ops: I have two pair of PVS7's, an older Gen3 51lpmm pair and a newer pinnacle tube -D model. Frequently, I ride my MTB in a local forested county park at night with these on and upon exiting the trail I end up in an apartment complex. The remainder of the loop back to the trail head is on a street in a business district, and the streetlights are soo bright they trigger the brightness protection on the newer more sensitive goggles. This was never an issue with the older pair, and to be honest the street isn't really all that brightly lit. What are you guys doing to help goggles that are too sensitive for your AO? If I put the daylight filter on, there isn't enough image to travel by safely. Maybe someone needs to come up with a polarized filter for the newer NVD's?? Something like what's on the Trijicon Reflex but holds settings better? Dave Dave, Is there a problem wearing the pinnacle's?  Does the brightness dim down too much?  I think you have the optimum set up with pinnacles?

For those trying to learn: Pinnacles are thin filmed, auto gated tubes.  That means the power to them turns on and off so fast they can control the amount of light they "let in" and thereby protect themselves (from high light conditions) electronically.  Because of this, they don't need as thick of ion barrier to protect them.  Since less light is lost to the thin ion barrier, pinnacle tubes work better in low light than standard filmed tube.  And becasue the auto gated circuit contols excess light they also work better in high light conditions.

Pinnacle tubes are not supposed to be sold to civilians per an agreement between the US govt and ITT but some slipped out.

This is a simplified explanation but for us lay people it ought to be accurate enough.

Originally Posted By inkaybee: Originally Posted By Victor: Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Urban Ops: I have two pair of PVS7's, an older Gen3 51lpmm pair and a newer pinnacle tube -D model. Frequently, I ride my MTB in a local forested county park at night with these on and upon exiting the trail I end up in an apartment complex. The remainder of the loop back to the trail head is on a street in a business district, and the streetlights are soo bright they trigger the brightness protection on the newer more sensitive goggles. This was never an issue with the older pair, and to be honest the street isn't really all that brightly lit. What are you guys doing to help goggles that are too sensitive for your AO? If I put the daylight filter on, there isn't enough image to travel by safely. Maybe someone needs to come up with a polarized filter for the newer NVD's?? Something like what's on the Trijicon Reflex but holds settings better? Dave Dave, Is there a problem wearing the pinnacle's?  Does the brightness dim down too much?  I think you have the optimum set up with pinnacles?   For those trying to learn: Pinnacles are thin filmed, auto gated tubes.  That means the power to them turns on and off so fast they can control the amount of light they "let in" and thereby protect themselves (from high light conditions) electronically.  Because of this, they don't need as thick of ion barrier to protect them.  Since less light is lost to the thin ion barrier, pinnacle tubes work better in low light than standard filmed tube.  And becasue the auto gated circuit contols excess light they also work better in high light conditions. Pinnacle tubes are not supposed to be sold to civilians per an agreement between the US govt and ITT but some slipped out. This is a simplified explanation but for us lay people it ought to be accurate enough.

Thanks Ink!  I need to keep in mind this is a new "Forum" per say and many do not know the "slang" and what certain things mean.  Sorry!

Originally Posted By Victor: Originally Posted By inkaybee: Originally Posted By Victor: Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Urban Ops: I have two pair of PVS7's, an older Gen3 51lpmm pair and a newer pinnacle tube -D model. Frequently, I ride my MTB in a local forested county park at night with these on and upon exiting the trail I end up in an apartment complex. The remainder of the loop back to the trail head is on a street in a business district, and the streetlights are soo bright they trigger the brightness protection on the newer more sensitive goggles. This was never an issue with the older pair, and to be honest the street isn't really all that brightly lit. What are you guys doing to help goggles that are too sensitive for your AO? If I put the daylight filter on, there isn't enough image to travel by safely. Maybe someone needs to come up with a polarized filter for the newer NVD's?? Something like what's on the Trijicon Reflex but holds settings better? Dave Dave, Is there a problem wearing the pinnacle's?  Does the brightness dim down too much?  I think you have the optimum set up with pinnacles?   For those trying to learn: Pinnacles are thin filmed, auto gated tubes.  That means the power to them turns on and off so fast they can control the amount of light they "let in" and thereby protect themselves (from high light conditions) electronically.  Because of this, they don't need as thick of ion barrier to protect them.  Since less light is lost to the thin ion barrier, pinnacle tubes work better in low light than standard filmed tube.  And becasue the auto gated circuit contols excess light they also work better in high light conditions. Pinnacle tubes are not supposed to be sold to civilians per an agreement between the US govt and ITT but some slipped out. This is a simplified explanation but for us lay people it ought to be accurate enough. Thanks Ink!  I need to keep in mind this is a new "Forum" per say and many do not know the "slang" and what certain things mean.  Sorry!

That would be me, the guy that has used NVG's for over 10 years, but does not know anything more than how to add batt's and turn them on and off...

I dont know why Im getting into them all of the sudden, but Im really trying to learn all I can and move to something other than the 7's


BTW: looking at my 7's I have been thinking...

Why have the guys that build these things not added a digital cam to them, seems like they would not have much more to add?

They get a little darker, and REALLY blurry, just like my older ones would do when over exposed to light. They are not really useful when this happens. I can tear ass down a trail in total darkness with them on, but when I get out on the sidewalk, I have to take them off.

Dave

Thank you, thank you thank you!!!!  

Bring it on guys.  I've got a PVS14 I'm waiting to buy.

Now i want to learn all about : 11769, and 10160 tubes.  The uses of the various PVS14 items, the best method to wear/employ a 14; does mounting NVD on an M16 hurt the tube; teach me about nvd scopes such as Raptors; and just so many other things.

Then tell me the best places to purchase IR lasers, the best types to mount on a pic rail; which type are easiest to calibrate and aim; and much more.

Also, teach me about flash suppression  and shooting at night with NVD.

Originally Posted By EricE: As requested, please share what information you have here, and also feel free to post links to other NV threads/topics at AR15.com. Eric E

Thanks Eric!

Originally Posted By v188: Thank you, thank you thank you!!!!   Bring it on guys.  I've got a PVS14 I'm waiting to buy. Now i want to learn all about : 11769, and 10160 tubes.  The uses of the various PVS14 items, the best method to wear/employ a 14; does mounting NVD on an M16 hurt the tube; teach me about nvd scopes such as Raptors; and just so many other things. Then tell me the best places to purchase IR lasers, the best types to mount on a pic rail; which type are easiest to calibrate and aim; and much more. Also, teach me about flash suppression  and shooting at night with NVD.

Incoming to your mail...I am sure IPSC_Guy will also have a great deal to add in the tube arena.  I will have a few pics and suggestions to help you with head mounting and wearing questions. This link here will help you with your IR needs thus far.  ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=20&t=235434 Very soon, I will show several different IR lasers in action with pics through the tube on each one.

More to come, stay tuned!

I agree- a FAQ or simply a post here which tells which tube each of the common systems uses would be helpful.  What tube does a MUM, PVS14, PVS7, etc use.  What is the going cost on these tubes (for each of the OMNI specs).  What about the ATN PS-14 which is supposed to be able to use multiple different tubes (including the european ones).  Will this be a big advantage in the long run?  Which tubes are used by the military, and thus can be expected to be availble in greater quantities, etc.  Thanks.  

Back in December of 2004 I wrote this review (below) of the 6X Raptor vs. the the 6X D-760. Nothing has changed in my opinions since then. These two scopes are the finest out there! I can ad a few details here that both tubes were VERY close one another.  Both had signal to noise ratios in the high 27-29's, VERY low EBI and high gain with no blems.  These were mil-spec tubes.


"Hello all,

A short time ago I purchased BOTH the D-760 and a Raptor in 6x magnification. Both of course came standard with tube data sheets with remarkable hand picked tubes. 64LP, 27-29 Signal to Noise, etc. Both units also have red mil-dot reticules with the D-760 having a very ingenuous amber or red mil-dot reticule selectable switch on the power knob.

I took both units out to a VERY dark DoD facility out west and got to play with two of the best and finest pieces of gear I ever laid my hands on and did a comparison test between the two. I started my observing last week with a 1/4 moon at approx. 0430hrs and of course me being me, I decided to observe at the far reaches of the universe to start things off at 1600 yards and work out!! Both units were on platforms consisting of a custom AWC .300 win mag, as well as a new MSTN custom AR-15 6.8 SPC with an ARMS #58 SIR. No shooting was allowed on the facility at this time, so I settled for a small sized forklift parked broadside for viewing purposes. When I first looked through the Raptor, I was simply AMAZED at the clarity and contrast I could see out this far. NO WAY would I be able to see this detail on a hot steamy day with all the mirage coming off the tarmac. But at night, I was simply amazed by the Raptor’s Sharp and clear contrast and resolution. For a $7,000.00 NVD, I was hoping I would be amazed. Next came the D-760 which btw, was (it seemed) half the weight of the Raptor along with almost half the price! I have not weighed the Raptor vs. the D-760 as yet, but I can tell you the Raptor is a monster compared to the D-760. The Raptor has a 165mm objective compared to a 110mm with the D-760 which is where most of the weight is held. Anyways, back to the D-760…..Powered up the 760 and at first forgot to focus the far field adjustment and the image at 1600 yards was a bit blurry. After the focus was made, I came away also amazed by the brightness and resolution. The ONLY difference I saw after 30 minutes going back and forth of the two was the Raptors slight edge on edge to edge sharpness and it seemed to have a wider field of view which seemed to equate to a bit more image magnification also probably due to the huge objective glass the Raptor has. These scopes were VERY close to one another in views through the eye piece. In fact, they were soooo close I had a colleague look through BOTH scopes and stated the same exact thing I had. I NEVER told him what scope he was looking though as I put a dark towel over both units to hide their identities!  Both units at 1600 yards saw the forklift with great detail, with the Raptor winning out by seeing the cab frame a bit better. As I stated at the beginning of this article, me being me I then tested the long range observation characteristics with a small 10’ x 20’ storage shed as well as a 64' ground based antenna dish at 3500 yards away!!! Both units saw the shed and dish with ease with the Raptor clearly showing off its 165mm objective with an incredibly sharp image. The D-760 was no slouch; the shed was clearly defined but not as sharp. If anything, these two units can be used not only for NVD sniper scopes, but for the world’s best observation NVD spotting scopes PERIOD!!

I decided to bring the fork lift in at 500 yards and see what we could see. At the conclusion of this viewing session, my colleague and I agreed that there was virtually no difference in target recognition at this distance. They were almost identical in ALL areas at 500 yards and we also observed at 300 and 100 yards with the same results.

After spending the next hour looking through both units, both my colleague and I agreed that for mission requirements out past 600 yards, the Raptor would be deployed for the crisp and razor sharp images. That of course is what the 165mm objective and $7,000.00 will get you. As for the D-760, anything in below 600 yards would be easy pickin’s. The price difference of course is VERY large between both units so individuals whose profession includes protecting lives and want the VERY best edge to edge resolution and sharpness, the Raptor can be justified. For some military and all LEO and varmint hunters, I cannot think of any better NV scope than the D-760 for the price of under 4K. It's light weight, and has a great tube. In fact, both units had the best tubes I’ve ever looked through with NO blemishes to speak of, not a speck I could see.

In closing I can tell you that what ever units you choose, you cannot go wrong. Presently though, the new off the shelf Raptors for sale are now restricted to LE and military units ONLY. They are legal to own of course, but any new units for sale are restricted. Unless you know someone in the LE community or military, obtaining a brand new Raptor could now be very difficult. With this news of course, I'm sure the price will soar well above the $7,000.00 current Raptor retail price tag if you can even find one. What’s left to buy you say? The D-760 is it.

Sorry for the looooong post and btw for those of you who think I work for a NVD company, I do NOT. I’m a Tactical Consultant for a Police Dept, as well as a serious hunter and shooter who just loves the best gear out there and these two units are TRULY THE BEST OUT THERE! You WILL own the night. An old picture with an inscription I once saw comes into mind…”Don’t fear the night, fear what hunts the night.” This is VERY good advice, because it’s now good to be afraid of the night with these two units out there folks. Take care,

Vic"

www.intas.org/Nachtsicht/nightvision-gnl.htm  This is some of the best info I have found.  Read it two or three times.  There is alot of stuf to take in --  especally if your are new to NV.

Hello all,

The 2nd part of my comparisons had to do with head mounting options.  The standard head mount harness that comes with the PVS-14's is lightweight, but I found after long periods of wear (2 hours or more) my temples would start to hurt.  I've talked with a few others and they had the same problem.  About a year ago, a few of my late night cigar smoking buddies that used to be on the "dark-side" of the house told my they used modified bicycle type helmets on several occasions when the Kevlar was too bulky and just too big.  This got me thinking so I went to my local Wallfart (I HATE THIS STORE BTW) and looked around at some mountain bike helmets.  I heard the pro-tec helmets were a good choice and they were grey in color as well.  (Best nighttime cammo IMHO anyways) Well after trying on a few, my flat head got the best of a good fit so I passed on the PT and started looking at the BELL brand.  The first one I tried fit perfect, so I paid the cheap Wallfart price of $21.00 bones and got the hell out of there!

I had several GI flip-up wrap around helmet mounts laying around, so I decided to grind away on the BELL helmet foam to fit the helmet mount hooks. The original helmet also came with yellow chinstraps; I just used a permanent marker to take this out.  Well a picture tells a thousand words, so enough babble; here is what I've done.





I can tell you after 4 hours of continuous use, the helmet is a dream to wear while employing the PVS-14's. The full size 14 is a tiny bit forehead heavy and I would suggest maybe modifying the original head harness chinstrap to work with the BELL to gain a bit more rigidity. The PVS Mini-14 though is incredibly comfortable and I will not go back to the head-harness.  The only thing left to do is maybe knock off the brown color a bit with some gray paint schemes.  

Well, I hope this might help you narrow your choice of mounting NVD's to ones head!

Vic

Looks good I hate the skull crusher also.

I am curios what is the black globe on top of the helmet?IR strobe???

I notice you have a Phoenix beacon on the back of you helmet, but I have no clue what the globe was.

Thanks
 FREE

Originally Posted By FREEFALLE6: Looks good I hate the skull crusher also. I am curios what is the black globe on top of the helmet?IR strobe??? I notice you have a Phoenix beacon on the back of you helmet, but I have no clue what the globe was. Thanks  FREE

You're correct, it's an IR beacon. The Pheoinix is the programable version you see on the back.

So what's the difference between an ITT and Litton PVS14?  Are the housing different?

BTW, that bike helmet idea is a great idea.  This will develop into a MUST USE forum!

Originally Posted By v188: So what's the difference between an ITT and Litton PVS14?  Are the housing different? BTW, that bike helmet idea is a great idea.  This will develop into a MUST USE forum!

I don't think there is much difference between the ITT and Litton PVS 14s.  However, if you are asking about the two "14s" Vic is talking about in his post above, there are several diferences.  One is a PVS14 the other is an insight M.U.M. (multi use monocular) or "mini 14.

The PVS14 has manual gain control, shuts off when you flip it up, uses AA batteries, and is water resistant.

The MUM is lighter, smaller, has automatic gain control only, Uses CR123s or AAs and is water proof to 66feet.