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Posted: 7/22/2017 10:48:41 PM EDT
[#1]
I assume you're talking about Mg's? Not just nfa items in total?
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Posted: 7/22/2017 10:53:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Now that you mention it, that was what was discussed.
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:08:59 PM EDT
[#3]
As I recall it was, but only for some senator or congressman to register his. Nothing for us peons.
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:12:27 PM EDT
[#4]
The NFRTR is active and new firearms are added all the time, but not transferable MGs since May 1986.
There was a rumor floating around that some US senator had a Russian something added like a transferable in the 1990's, but in a couple threads where further info was called for, no one could substantiate this claim. It is a fact that sometimes transferable MGs are added that ATF was completely unaware of previously, like when heirs find grandpa's MP40 in the attic with capture papers. It's rare, but it has happened. The documented USGI capture papers mean that technically it was transferable the whole time (because it was "registered" with the US government in 1944). Everyone just forget to let the BATFE know. Usually a SME has to get involved to make this happen. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:23:36 PM EDT
[#5]
I have heard of the capture paper case. The only specifics I took from the conversation I was part of was the Registry was opened in 1996 for a short while (30 days?) and it was never made public.
Does such an event create a paper trail of some sort? I'm genuinely curious and I figured why not ask people who either know or could find out. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:33:46 PM EDT
[#6]
If such an event had occurred (30 day opening in 1996 for new MGs) it would have to create a paper trail. I would expect a notice in the Federal Register.
It didn't happen though. Someone here would've heard of it. There was an amnesty registration period after the Gun Control Act of 1968 went into effect. That may have been what you heard about. It lasted for 30 days, ending on December 1, 1968. Here's a SAR article from the early 2000's which may interest you: http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=3005 |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:36:08 PM EDT
[#7]
I heard Rumors that Saddams G18 was added for Bush.
Rumors... |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:42:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Kitbuilder thank you. I didn't think something of that magnitude would escape the all seeing eye of Arfcom.
I will try to pin the person down who told me this though. Again I thank you. |
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:48:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard Rumors that Saddams G18 was added for Bush. Rumors... Google says about 4,000 people are members, so legally some copy machine clerk could run around with the Saddam Glock 18 today, as long as he's a member of EOPOTUS. 
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Posted: 7/22/2017 11:53:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kitbuilder thank you. I didn't think something of that magnitude would escape the all seeing eye of Arfcom. I will try to pin the person down who told me this though. Again I thank you. Here's a mid-2000's screenshot of the NFRTR as seen by NFA examiners (redacted of course). It mostly exists today as a SQL database, but they have old paper records also. Unfortunately it isn't as accurate or complete as it should be. ATF even admits this. 
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Posted: 7/23/2017 12:04:43 AM EDT
[#11]
This study: http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/larson_study.txt
by Eric M. Larson has a section which reads In May 1996, a federal court overturned fiveconvictions for nonregistration because ATF employees
deliberately threw registration documents away. On May 21, 1996, NFA Branch firearms specialist Gary N. Schaible testified, in a court case appealing convictions for nonregistration, that some ATF employees have thrown registration or transfer documents away because they didn't feel like doing the work to enter them into the NFRTR. The United States Attorney prosecuting the case declined to cross-examine Mr. Schaible, whose testimony was good enough for U.S. District Judge John A. MacKenzie. "I'm going to throw out the convictions that have to do with registrations," he stated, adding that "it throws a disagreeable proposition on my finding somebody guilty on records when their chief man says they were 49 percent wrong." Mr. Schaible's testimony, and especially the court decision, casts reasonable legal doubt on the validity and reliability of NFRTR data. ATF has not appealed the dismissals. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 12:17:21 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm beginning to believe the person I conversed with got his wires crossed. The last post fits his timeline but an entirely different situation.
I now understand why some who deal with NFA frequently can be a little shall we say, stressed?
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Posted: 7/23/2017 12:22:06 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This study: http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/larson_study.txt by Eric M. Larson has a section which reads
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Posted: 7/23/2017 12:23:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Yes, there was a very brief window maybe 2-3 years ago where they approved submitted form 1's on trusts as someone up there decided that the legalese around trusts didn't preclude them from registering machineguns. They then reversed that decision. I'd have to check my eform submissions for the exact months, I was on the tail end and got denied on an M4. as far as I am aware, they went out and pulled all the approved form 1s. If they didn't, those who got them kept their mouth shut.
is that what you are talking about? Eta: here is one blog about it. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/09/foghorn/atf-may-just-approved-first-new-civilian-machine-gun-28-years/ http://rkmerting.com/can-a-trust-form-1-a-machine-gun/ here is one |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 12:43:30 AM EDT
[#15]
Yeah, they all got letters stating their registrations were invalid and to NOT make a machinegun.
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Posted: 7/23/2017 12:51:39 AM EDT
[#16]
Well no new machine guns since 1986 for us civilians... But yeah anything else can be made new for NFA stuff. Of course pre-86 machine guns can still be transferred.
There was someone who sent in a Form 1 for a new machine gun and got it back approved, but then the ATF realized their mess up and asked for it back ASAP!! I don't believe they let him make a new machine gun. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 1:34:51 AM EDT
[#17]
Well there was Hollis.
I thought other examples had come to light. Somehow political donors were getting stuff approved. 922 o loophole. Maybe that was just lore or... 
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Posted: 7/23/2017 2:06:19 AM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 7/23/2017 1:26:34 PM EDT
[#19]
I met a retired ATF agent who claimed to have had items added to the registry for his collection. Nothing would shock me with the level of corruption in the government.
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Posted: 7/23/2017 1:41:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I met a retired ATF agent who claimed to have had items added to the registry for his collection. Nothing would shock me with the level of corruption in the government. An examination of the FOIA numbers shows that transferable MGs have increased since 1986. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 1:44:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That could've been done totally legit though. Any gifts (or captured enemy weapons) given to the President do not belong to him personally, but to the Executive Office of the President (EOPOTUS). As a government entity, this office is exempt from provisions of the NFA and could register any post-86 or contraband firearm it wishes. This would not allow Bush to keep it after his term (unless former presidents are still considered members of the office). Google says about 4,000 people are members, so legally some copy machine clerk could run around with the Saddam Glock 18 today, as long as he's a member of EOPOTUS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I heard Rumors that Saddams G18 was added for Bush. Rumors... Google says about 4,000 people are members, so legally some copy machine clerk could run around with the Saddam Glock 18 today, as long as he's a member of EOPOTUS. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 1:45:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Did he say what he had added, or when? Seems strange he'd admit that to you, if it's correct.
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Posted: 7/23/2017 1:49:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An examination of the FOIA numbers shows that transferable MGs have increased since 1986. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 1:54:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is in his Presidential Library 
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Posted: 7/23/2017 3:42:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This study: http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/larson_study.txt by Eric M. Larson has a section which reads |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 5:53:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Just CYA with copies of your stuff, don't laminate original stamped forms, and fill everything out correctly. It'll be ok.
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Posted: 7/23/2017 5:53:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's crap like that that makes me question whether I should play in the NFA pool. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This study: http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/larson_study.txt by Eric M. Larson has a section which reads The above mid-1990's episode was the nail in the coffin, and NFA Branch was shut down and moved to West Virginia, with all new examiners. It is a whole different world, and simply could not happen again. The only guns which may still have registration issues are those which have not been re-transferred since the mid-1990's, which is very few indeed. In addition, any issues would arise when the gun is transferred from the previous owner to the new one -- and ATF is very aware of the above incidents, and to avoid bad publicity would definitely work with the buyer to get things straightened out during the transfer process. Bottom line is: If you buy a transferable MG today and the transfer is approved, no worries.* The * is because there are indeed some gray-area guns -- M16 RR's whose receivers have been replaced post-1986; lightning links that morphed into RDIAS; "transferable" M60's that actually were built a few days after May 19, 1986; et cetera. So buyers should learn about the landmines before they buy, and decide whether they are willing to risk it. Your Mileage May Vary.
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Posted: 7/23/2017 6:03:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Bear in mind most of those landmines were actually created by FFL/SOTs, not the BATFE.
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Posted: 7/23/2017 7:34:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was at the depths of NFA Branch, when it was in D.C. The document examiner job was entry-level, and the good folks got promoted up the ladder ... and the not-so-good folks had lifetime job protection (hey, they are U.S. employees), so many of them just sat around and did as little as possible. The above mid-1990's episode was the nail in the coffin, and NFA Branch was shut down and moved to West Virginia, with all new examiners. It is a whole different world, and simply could not happen again. The only guns which may still have registration issues are those which have not been re-transferred since the mid-1990's, which is very few indeed. In addition, any issues would arise when the gun is transferred from the previous owner to the new one -- and ATF is very aware of the above incidents, and to avoid bad publicity would definitely work with the buyer to get things straightened out during the transfer process. Bottom line is: If you buy a transferable MG today and the transfer is approved, no worries.* The * is because there are indeed some gray-area guns -- M16 RR's whose receivers have been replaced post-1986; lightning links that morphed into RDIAS; "transferable" M60's that actually were built a few days after May 19, 1986; et cetera. So buyers should learn about the landmines before they buy, and decide whether they are willing to risk it. Your Mileage May Vary. here are all of the NFA branch examiners before the move to WV...... (L to R)...Alma Mc Coy, Maurice Walker (senior examiner), Barbara Franklin, Lucretia Fountain, Keisha Ard-Jones, Diane Lawrence, Tracey Carswell, Tracy McNeill, and Sylvia Alexander 
I worked in DC at the time, and can tell you many Federal Agencies were still transitioning out of DOS-based programs....using cobbled together access-based systems to transfer information into the new databases developed by the lowest bidder....good times! |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 9:18:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And ^that^ is why you don't laminate your original forms with an actual stamp. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 10:04:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Nah, if it's got plastic over it, then it cannot be authenticated. The NFA forum has spoken!
Of course, it could be a procedural thing. "Oh you laminated your form? We'll just assume it's fake then." It's probably just another one of those myths that no one can back up with a factual story. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 10:11:19 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm no forensic detective, but I imagine if it came down to it where a laminated F1/F4 is entered into evidence, there would be ways to determine if the paper and stamp lying underneath the lamination could be demonstrably proven to be legitimate or a forgery. To think otherwise discounts all the advances in materials testing and analysis available to even a third tier laboratory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And ^that^ is why you don't laminate your original forms with an actual stamp. In the case cited above, ATF had already seized and destroyed the transferable MG due to the absence of proof that it was registered. AFAIK, the registered owner was never compensated due to the inability at the time to prove lawful registration. Even if it had been proved and he was compensated financially, there would be one less transferable MG in the NFA Registry. Ultimately, they win and we all lose. |
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Posted: 7/23/2017 10:49:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Is there case law precedent where a laminated document was deemed inadmissible?
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Posted: 7/24/2017 1:28:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Maybe someone who knows more than I do can answer this question. I've been told by a couple of people that it has but only for a very short time and was never publicized. Has anyone else heard of this? I hope so! Cause I am sending in a form today! Oh, you mean for transferables? I guess it depends upon what "open" means. Legally, nothing made after 5/1/86 can be added things made before then continue to be added as I have documented in this forum in the past. |
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Posted: 7/24/2017 1:28:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:...
The * is because there are indeed some gray-area guns -- M16 RR's whose receivers have been replaced post-1986; lightning links that morphed into RDIAS.... |
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Posted: 7/24/2017 1:29:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard Rumors that Saddams G18 was added for Bush. Rumors... |
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Posted: 7/24/2017 1:52:55 PM EDT
[#37]
I know of five post 86 stamps that were approved. At least one was made and then seized by the ATF. I still have my stamp, but no MG
 Three others were approved in the 2004/2005 time frame. IIRC the ATF picked up any that were cut.
I also know one MG was transferred in the 90's (FAL) on a form 5 to an individual. It was supposed to be a department gun but they approved it to the officer instead of the department. After the officer pointed out the mistake it was repapered to the department. Everything else appears to be rumors. It's possible something would be found if discovery was granted for a law suit, but no judge has done that. |
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Posted: 7/24/2017 1:56:04 PM EDT
[#38]
The MG registry is technically closed, but I have a feeling that some special people have been allowed to get their toys in due to connections.
Other nfa stuff is still open (sbr, sbs, suppressors, etc) |
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Posted: 7/24/2017 1:58:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm beginning to believe the person I conversed with got his wires crossed. The last post fits his timeline but an entirely different situation. I now understand why some who deal with NFA frequently can be a little shall we say, stressed? |
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Posted: 7/24/2017 2:03:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
(snip) These things really interest me. Does anyone have any more details on the LL to RDIAS stories? There were two different types: In one, the link itself was cut and fitted around the outside of a slightly undersized DIAS. In the other, like the one I saw, the maker's marks and serial numbers were simply moved onto a new DIAS. The tipoff is that SWD, which made all the lightning links, listed the model on the Form 2 as an "Auto Connector," and all the serial numbers for them started with "AC". So if you ever come across an RDIAS made by SWD and whose SN starts with AC, you know it started out as a lightning link. Also note that even regular RDIAS can have hinky histories. I know of one Norrell RDIAS that was sold as "brand new, never used." The buyer tried installing it in his AR and it would not fit, so he contacted John Norrell, who didn't live that far from him. Norrell said to bring it by, and he did so. Norrell took one look at it and said, "I did not make that." He brought out one of his own and showed the different (and vastly superior) machining and finishing, and the very different stamping/engraving. Norrell understandably refused to fix it, because he did not want it in his shop in case ATF stopped by. IIRC, the buyer said he intended to take this up with the person he bought it from, and that's the last I heard about it. Get involved enough with the NFA hobby and over time, you will meet lots of people with very interesting items! |
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Posted: 7/24/2017 2:04:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I also know one MG was transferred in the 90's (FAL) on a form 5 to an individual. It was supposed to be a department gun but they approved it to the officer instead of the department. After the officer pointed out the mistake it was repapered to the department. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 2:14:13 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anyone have any more details on the LL to RDIAS stories?  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 2:12:11 PM EDT
[#43]
John Brown, of the NFATCA was supposedly involved in creating post '86 MGs from damaged or destroyed registered guns.
I met him multiple times when I lived in VA and worked at a gun store that wasn't far from his shop. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 3:17:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
John Brown, of the NFATCA was supposedly involved in creating post '86 MGs from damaged or destroyed registered guns. I met him multiple times when I lived in VA and worked at a gun store that wasn't far from his shop. 
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Posted: 7/28/2017 3:43:16 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That could've been done totally legit though. Any gifts (or captured enemy weapons) given to the President do not belong to him personally, but to the Executive Office of the President (EOPOTUS). As a government entity, this office is exempt from provisions of the NFA and could register any post-86 or contraband firearm it wishes. This would not allow Bush to keep it after his term (unless former presidents are still considered members of the office). Google says about 4,000 people are members, so legally some copy machine clerk could run around with the Saddam Glock 18 today, as long as he's a member of EOPOTUS. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 4:51:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bear in mind most of those landmines were actually created by FFL/SOTs, not the BATFE. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 4:54:59 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's also a traitor and on the NRA Board last I checked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
John Brown, of the NFATCA was supposedly involved in creating post '86 MGs from damaged or destroyed registered guns. I met him multiple times when I lived in VA and worked at a gun store that wasn't far from his shop. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 5:47:54 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The * is because there are indeed some gray-area guns -- M16 RR's whose receivers have been replaced post-1986; lightning links that morphed into RDIAS; "transferable" M60's that actually were built a few days after May 19, 1986; et cetera. So buyers should learn about the landmines before they buy, and decide whether they are willing to risk it. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 7:23:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The major firearms makers usually make a super high end shotgun for presidents(even if they don't shoot) and it gets presented to them. Some are on display at the Fairfax NRA museum. Thye have HW Bush's shotgun(looks shot a little like one or 2 rounds of clays) GWB's was pristine, and rosevelt's whole collection were beat to shit. The rest look like they came out of the box once to do the photo shoot then back then donated to museum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That could've been done totally legit though. Any gifts (or captured enemy weapons) given to the President do not belong to him personally, but to the Executive Office of the President (EOPOTUS). As a government entity, this office is exempt from provisions of the NFA and could register any post-86 or contraband firearm it wishes. This would not allow Bush to keep it after his term (unless former presidents are still considered members of the office). Google says about 4,000 people are members, so legally some copy machine clerk could run around with the Saddam Glock 18 today, as long as he's a member of EOPOTUS. |
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Posted: 7/28/2017 7:35:18 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
John also got a 1 day transfer by sending the ATF agent a pizza. John has a booth at the NRA annual meetings and gives questionable NFA advice. I stopped and visited him. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
John Brown, of the NFATCA was supposedly involved in creating post '86 MGs from damaged or destroyed registered guns. I met him multiple times when I lived in VA and worked at a gun store that wasn't far from his shop. |
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