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Posted: 3/15/2017 12:25:43 AM EDT
Like in the title.... why would anybody from this point forward go the trust route when individual form 1'ing is way easier?
Having all your trustees and "responsible people" on your trust fill out fingerprint cards and take pics for each form is a huge hassle, and there's no guarantee that they will fill them out for each one. Especially when you file multiple each year. Am I reading this right?..... I haven't dealt with Form 1's in a couple years as I have been busy but now I need to file my projects that have been on the back burner. I have 6 Form 1's that need to be filed. I can just simply file them as Individuals instead of using my old trust? Fill out CLEO paperwork Fill out form 1 (2) Fingerprint cards (2) Passport photos (2) Check ..... is that all now? Seems way better than using the trust. What am I missing? |
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I come up with:
Engraving a trust name vs your own name. You can have as many trusts as you want. I believe you can add someone to a trust after the form one is filed (I have not confirmed this). |
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-Estate planning
-Having a trustee babysit your NFA items while deployed abroad or stationed in an occupied state -Allowing someone other than yourself (family member for instance) to possess and use the trust's NFA item 41F is now a huge PITA... here's hoping that EO is rescinded in the near future. |
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I have over 2k in stamps. I only wish I had gone with a Trust from the get go. Don't make my mistake.
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-Estate planning -Having a trustee babysit your NFA items while deployed abroad or stationed in an occupied state -Allowing someone other than yourself (family member for instance) to possess and use the trust's NFA item 41F is now a huge PITA... here's hoping that EO is rescinded in the near future. View Quote This: overcomes sole ownership; others can access/store/use "your" (their) NFA items. |
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Like said there's other legal benefits to it.
I've always done the individual route simply because a trust doesn't benefit me. |
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While I'm living in a free state now, both mine and my wife's families are all in California. There is a slim chance, very slim, that we may move back to the communist country after retirement.
My sons are the beneficiaries of my trust, they are still very young, our retirement will happen before they can legally possess class 3 stuff. |
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For some people they still serve a purpose. I'm you though OP, none of the benefits left are worth the cost to me. Of course trusts were always a waste of money for me as CLEO sign off was never a problem around here.
Estate planning - no kids, my wife gets everything. Deployed/move out of state/transfer for work - not in the military, not happening, not happening. Access for others - my wife shoots but not on her own, no one else is taking anything of mine to the range without me. I actually heard someone mention shielding them from legal stuff not too long ago. I personally find that stretching it a bit. Might be worthwhile for machine guns. But I don't own any machine guns and all of my stamped stuff is form 1 so it doesn't exactly hold a helluva lot of value. Some of my non-stamped stuff is probably worth more. |
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I've got several friends that I hunt and shoot with a lot. My first three stamps were in individual name. The rest are in the trust. We hunt pigs at night quite often and it is easy to get separated, and most often I will have suppressors on everyone's rifle.
They don't know how to get in the safe and only use them when I let them. No reason for them not to be on the trust. If I were to submit a new Form 1 / 4, everyone other than me would resign / or be removed as a co-trustee. I would submit the new application with basically the same paperwork (add the RP questionnaire) with my prints and pic. Who knows, a month or so later, I might decide that I wanted my buddy John Smith to go hunting with me and we'd both sign a form where I appoint him as a co-trustee and he accepts the trusteeship. In my situation, there is absolutely no reason not to- I've got to do the prints anyway. |
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Do you have, or want to have children? A brother, sister, or other family member that you'd want to leave any class 3 items to? If not, then the trust probably isn't for you. That's pretty much it.
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How? I was told the only way to avoid having to pay multiple tax stamp fee's, and to give them to my children was to use a trust. View Quote heir or by operation of law" in box 1 of the form. ATF Form 5 |
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How? I was told the only way to avoid having to pay multiple tax stamp fee's, and to give them to my children was to use a trust. View Quote 1. Somebody will have to turn them into the ATF when you die 2. It'll cost $200 to transfer them to somebody when you die 3. Your spouse will be put in prison if you buy as an individual and she knows the code to the safe As mentioned above, the Form 5 is used for a tax-free transfer to your legal heir. |
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These threads never seem to end. There is a very very very good reason for using a trust: rogue "UBC laws". In WA the language of the UBC is exceptionally restrictive. If you go out to a forest to shoot with your neighbor and he wants to dump a mag through your new SBR and you hand it to him...he fires...and he hands it back, you've both committed a felony. No, it doesn't matter that you're "right there"...not with this law. A simple hand off is just as much of a 'transfer' as mailing the gun across the state to a guy you're selling the gun to...you are required to have a dealer run a background check. Having a trust avoids this. You could sign a quick doc that makes said neighbor legal to possess said item and then blast away the happy hours.
Now I know what you're saying, "but that's one of those anti gun states, I'm just fine over here in (insert cooler state here)!!!" Yeah, ok...how SURE are you that we'll never again have a left wing anti-gun government at the federal level? If (when) we do, we could get a federal version of the same type of law. The left will never stop pushing for that until they get it. IF they are ever successful, you will not want to own said NFA stuff as an individual. Free trusts are out there...establish one, apply for stamps, get them, then add all the co-trustees you want. It's no more of a 'hassle' than going the individual route and someday it just might be very advantageous. If that scenario never happens...so what? It didn't cost you anything extra to do it that way. |
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You got the good ol' "gun trust lawyer" sales pitch, which usually includes: 1. Somebody will have to turn them into the ATF when you die 2. It'll cost $200 to transfer them to somebody when you die 3. Your spouse will be put in prison if you buy as an individual and she knows the code to the safe View Quote |
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And THIS is the only reason trusts have become so popular in the last few years. Who cares if any of its true, a lot of people have made a whole bunch of money. View Quote |
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My thought is that trusts became popular due to many CLEO's refusing to sign a Form 1 or 4 (which forces one to use a trust or corporation), combined with not having to submit fingerprints and photos. Trusts were a much simpler process really. These days, depending on your situation, trusts may or may not be the most desirable route for someone to go. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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And THIS is the only reason trusts have become so popular in the last few years. Who cares if any of its true, a lot of people have made a whole bunch of money. |
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You can add responsible persons to the trust afterwards with no paperwork.
However, if you want add another NFA item to that trust, all responsible persons will need to the fingerprints dance. Of course, you could just make another trust. |
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You can add responsible persons to the trust afterwards with no paperwork. However, if you want add another NFA item to that trust, all responsible persons will need to the fingerprints dance. Of course, you could just make another trust. View Quote |
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Or you could just amend the trust to take those people off and then add them back on after approval. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You can add responsible persons to the trust afterwards with no paperwork. However, if you want add another NFA item to that trust, all responsible persons will need to the fingerprints dance. Of course, you could just make another trust. |
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Like in the title.... why would anybody from this point forward go the trust route when individual form 1'ing is way easier? Having all your trustees and "responsible people" on your trust fill out fingerprint cards and take pics for each form is a huge hassle, and there's no guarantee that they will fill them out for each one. Especially when you file multiple each year. Am I reading this right?..... I haven't dealt with Form 1's in a couple years as I have been busy but now I need to file my projects that have been on the back burner. I have 6 Form 1's that need to be filed. I can just simply file them as Individuals instead of using my old trust? Fill out CLEO paperwork Fill out form 1 (2) Fingerprint cards (2) Passport photos (2) Check ..... is that all now? Seems way better than using the trust. What am I missing? View Quote What in the world are you on about? All of those procedures are exactly the same whether you file as an individual or as a trust. I have an SBR I filed as an individual. I have SBRs on a trust. If I want my wife to be able to access my stuff later on, with the one that's registered as an individual I have to pay $200 and transfer it to my trust. With the ones already on the trust, I can just add her to the trust. Trusts are better. |
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And THIS is the only reason trusts have become so popular in the last few years. Who cares if any of its true, a lot of people have made a whole bunch of money. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You got the good ol' "gun trust lawyer" sales pitch, which usually includes: 1. Somebody will have to turn them into the ATF when you die 2. It'll cost $200 to transfer them to somebody when you die 3. Your spouse will be put in prison if you buy as an individual and she knows the code to the safe It seems very beneficial to me and my family to have a trust(s). 1. My wife or whoever can use/possess them when I am not present. 2. No transfer will need to take place upon my death. I don't care if it is tax free. Not having to transfer is a HUGE benefit in my eyes, regardless of whether the laws change for better or worse. Is there something I am missing? |
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And THIS is the only reason trusts have become so popular in the last few years. Who cares if any of its true, a lot of people have made a whole bunch of money. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You got the good ol' "gun trust lawyer" sales pitch, which usually includes: 1. Somebody will have to turn them into the ATF when you die 2. It'll cost $200 to transfer them to somebody when you die 3. Your spouse will be put in prison if you buy as an individual and she knows the code to the safe We were shooting earlier today and went straight from his house to go out to eat. Plus we're shooting again tomorrow so I left an SBR and suppressor in his safe. |
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Even though it's basically how the ATF said you could do it? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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While that is legal, I think you're dancing too fine a line there. If you do that, it's pretty obvious, even to the casual observer, that you're trying to avoid BGCs on the responsible persons. While perfectly legal, I wouldn't want to explain to a judge that I wasn't. However, if I made a new trust and added RPs afterwards, it states in exact words on the ATF website in the Q&A, that that is ok. 41p was enacted to prevent stuff like this, if you are obviously stepping around it, I think you are poking the bear. It's no more trouble to create a new trust than it is to re and re RPs from a current one so why bother? |
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I'll add two more reasons to the mix. With a trust:
-when you die there is no probate of the trust. If you are over bitching and moaning in the privacy threads then you should probably have a trust. Your will is public record; I can get a copy for .25/page from the County Clerk. If you put the guns in the will, I'll know exactly what firearms went to which people. All the hassle with delayed NICS responses because you wouldn't put your social security number on a 4473 is kind of a waste at that point. -there is no transfer of ownership when you die. The trust continues to own your firearms. Why does that matter? Look at all of the ban states. More often than not they pass laws that you can keep your weapon.. but it can only be transferred to an out of state resident. Guess what happens when you die? It transfers. I wonder what Federal law may have been passed if FHRC was elected in regards to Class 3 firearms... I have kids, so what happens when I die always merits consideration. |
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There are downsides to a trust. If someone who is on your trust gets sued and loses, a judge can force the liquidation of items in the trust. If you remove that person from your trust a judge can undo it and still force you to liquify items or sieze them.
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I am unable to find a single example of a Trust with only one Responsible Person listed. To have a qualified trust it is my understanding that you need at least one other (responsible person) Successor Trustee/ beneficiary listed. Would like to have one with just myself and have the ability to add later but unable to find anything. Although possible would prefer not to remove individuals from my current trust.
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A beneficiary isn't a responsible person for NFA applications, unless they've changed something. Take whatever trust you can find and only put yourself as a grantor/trustee and all is good. You can have a dozen beneficiaries and still only have to send in prints / pics of yourself.
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I am unable to find a single example of a Trust with only one Responsible Person listed. To have a qualified trust it is my understanding that you need at least one other (responsible person) Successor Trustee/ beneficiary listed. Would like to have one with just myself and have the ability to add later but unable to find anything. Although possible would prefer not to remove individuals from my current trust. View Quote I have numerous customers who are the only member of their trust. SilencerShop even markets their Single Shot Trust |
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I am unable to find a single example of a Trust with only one Responsible Person listed. To have a qualified trust it is my understanding that you need at least one other (responsible person) Successor Trustee/ beneficiary listed. Would like to have one with just myself and have the ability to add later but unable to find anything. Although possible would prefer not to remove individuals from my current trust. View Quote |
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I have been looking at the whole thing wrong. My current trust has myself trustee and wife as co-trustee. In this case both responsible person needing prints and photos.
Just need myself listed as trustee and wife as a successor trustee. Only one responsible person. |
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This: overcomes sole ownership; others can access/store/use "your" (their) NFA items. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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-Estate planning -Having a trustee babysit your NFA items while deployed abroad or stationed in an occupied state -Allowing someone other than yourself (family member for instance) to possess and use the trust's NFA item 41F is now a huge PITA... here's hoping that EO is rescinded in the near future. This: overcomes sole ownership; others can access/store/use "your" (their) NFA items. |
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I put all my guns in a trust so if/when I die, my brother is my successor trustee and it will be him who sells/transfers the guns for what they're worth, not my wife who will be taken advantage of at the local gander mountain by shady dealers.
A trust is not just a legal loophole contrary to arfcom belief. There are real reasons to use the protections offered by the law. |
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You can add responsible persons to the trust afterwards with no paperwork. However, if you want add another NFA item to that trust, all responsible persons will need to the fingerprints dance. Of course, you could just make another trust. View Quote |
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There are downsides to a trust. If someone who is on your trust gets sued and loses, a judge can force the liquidation of items in the trust. If you remove that person from your trust a judge can undo it and still force you to liquify items or sieze them. View Quote A Trust is a seperate legal entity (same as an LLC or Corporation), unless someone was acting on behalf of the Trust in someway that incurred liability such as using Trust assets (car wreck in a Trust owned vehicle) and caused injury/damage, the Trust's assets would never be in jeopardy from the actions of a Trustee or Beneficiary (assuming the Grantor is still alive). Removing someone from my Trust takes all of 2 seconds if I had a need to edit the trust documents. |
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You're describing the Bronze Trust from NW Gun law Group, almost (profile says you're in WA). Beneficiary issues are handled through your estate plan, will or whatever. Have to upgrade to Silver to add Responsible Persons. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I am unable to find a single example of a Trust with only one Responsible Person listed. To have a qualified trust it is my understanding that you need at least one other (responsible person) Successor Trustee/ beneficiary listed. Would like to have one with just myself and have the ability to add later but unable to find anything. Although possible would prefer not to remove individuals from my current trust. As for what makes a Trust legal in WA : http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.98.011 I'm currently at 6 Trusts in WA and contemplating a 7th in Idaho because I want an SBS. They're free to create so why not? |
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Pretty clear you don't understand how Trusts work. The scenario you describe is unlikely, if not outright impossible, for anyone other than the Grantor of the Trust. Assuming the court felt the Trust was an attempt to hide assets from the plaintiff/court. A Trust is a seperate legal entity (same as an LLC or Corporation), unless someone was acting on behalf of the Trust in someway that incurred liability such as using Trust assets (car wreck in a Trust owned vehicle) and caused injury/damage, the Trust's assets would never be in jeopardy from the actions of a Trustee or Beneficiary (assuming the Grantor is still alive). Removing someone from my Trust takes all of 2 seconds if I had a need to edit the trust documents. View Quote Read http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-living-trusts-protect-assets-creditors.html |
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I know them pretty well. Read http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-living-trusts-protect-assets-creditors.html View Quote |
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For alot of us, going the individual route is just so much easier. No extra paperwork or costs, I don't leave my NFA guns at friends' houses, I don't let friends or relatives take my NFA guns to the range without me, and they can transfer tax free on a F 5 when I die. And now that I don't need the CLEO to sign, so much easier.
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I have over 2k in stamps. I only wish I had gone with a Trust from the get go. Don't make my mistake. View Quote |
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