Noise complaint?   It was not loud music.   People were shooting.    That is either legal or it is isn't.    The cop  galloped in squealing, "WHO HAS THE FULL AUTO".     I don't think ATF guys handle noise complaints.    Harassing people over things about which the cops know nothing should be criminal violations, civil violations, or both.

I do understand that decent people are used to taking this crap, but it has to stop.

Maybe I am out of line.   Maybe full auto is completely illegal in that state.     Then again, there is no way to know anyone is shooting a class III weapon without inspecting it and testing it.    If full auto is legal there, maybe the cop was a ATF agent.    

Outside of these points, the cop was certainly out of line.

I apologize.   I did not realize that the cop in question was an ATF agent.

So this was an ATF agent, and not a locall cop that did not know anything about the law?

Here is the bottom line.    Owning full autos in many states is not illegal.    Shooting on private property is not illegal if outside of city limits, in  many states.  

M16s are going for about $25,000 right now.   People have hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions tied up in real estate .    All of this is completely legal.     This is also the reason most decent people work, to have something that is their own.     People must not have to live in fear of their rights, property, and personal space being violated., especially when such is being done just to  exert some notion of dominance.    

There is absolutely no reason for any non ATF type to go charging into private property to investigate a federal matter of which he has no knowledge or jurisdiction.

This cop was out of line.    Did he run everyone's ID to verify they were not in fact a prohibited person?    NO?   This guy was just out to cause problems and humiliate people.   Just another JBT.     Such bad people are not needed on the planet.  

That is  my opinion, and I am sticking to it.

PA law specifically says that machine guns are legal as long as they are registered under the NFA.  So the local cop who actually was enforcing the law as it is written in his state had every right to verify the paperwork.
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=18&div=0&chpt=9&sctn=8&subsctn=0

Playing loud music is not really any different than shooting, assuming shooting is legal. And both are potential noise violations. Full auto is irrelevant to a noise violation. Either the actions violate the noise ordinance or they don't.

I prefer to be pleasant, let them dump a mag if they like, and hand out business cards.  If the liberal namby-pambies are going to send potential customers my way I won't waste the opportunity by acting like a bitch.

And for those of you wondering, I am an 07/C2 and yes I'm female.

Is there there a PA requirement to have the Form 4 with the NFA item?    There isn't at the federal level, only that it is available and can be produced, but doesn't say when or how.    There is no requirement to keep the trust on hand, outside of some obscure state requirement.   We all  know how messed up state laws can be.

As for demanding the trust, that is clearly out of line.    Who the cop be criminally charge or just high civil liabilities?

Oh, so, a person should check their county/state does not have such ordnances.    That does sound like a good idea.      

I frequent a female owned gun shop.  

No idea about that.  I'm not aware of any requirement to carry the forms, but it can certainly save one a huge headache in an instance like this.  Easier to just show a copy of the form that wait for the officer to jump through who knows how many hoops to check the weapons status in the NFA registry.

Wanting to see the trust seems a bit overzealous to me, but it is the only way for the officer to verify that the person with the weapon and form is actually a trustee and allowed to possess the weapon.

It just might be best to politely stand one's ground, advise that the documents are available, and request an ATF agent or court direction.      I do keep mine handy.      But,  I am  also not big on anyone needlessly getting into my personal business, especially outside the bounds of the law.

We have a huge problem in our society.    Cops do over reach their authority.    Irresponsible run from the cops.     At least the irresponsible people are  occasionally  being ...   changed.    The cops?    Unless the violator is some minority, then usually no one cares.   Decent people fight the matters in court.     Not enough decent people stand up and demand a stop to both of the bad people in our society.    

Most states legislation states that NFA is illegal unless federally issued paperwork is present. Sorry...but demanding that only an ATF agent has the right to see your paperwork is childish attention getting in most instances. Why not make it a positive interaction by explaining the process and legalities instead.

Noise complaints come in many forms, including shooting
States have weapons laws too, you do realize?



See above

You're entitled to your opinion
If its a legal FA then show the paperwork so the officer knows you aren't someone who drilled some extra holes in your receiver and threw in some parts you shouldn't have,
As has already been noted, there are state laws regarding weapons that has nothing to do with needing an ATf agent and as has already been noted, making the argument that only ATF agents can demand FA paperwork is a bit lame

No. LE has exactly zero power to arbitrarily halt any citizen who is acting in a presumptively legal manner. NFA is legal there, therefore no grounds to investigate.

The officers were called out to investigate a noise complaint.  Once they saw where the noise was coming from, they should have been on their way. At that point, they started acting like JBT's and sucking up everyone's time with an attitude.  Stomping around like billy bad-ass trying to intimidate people who are plainly recreational shooting is not a productive use of time. They should just mosey on down the road and look for some real criminals instead of picking on easy targets.



The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



Making noise is not probabe cause just because some asshole heard some gun fire way off.  



 

You are right.    I just can't stand the idea of investing that kind of money in real estate and guns just to have some one  crap on me.      It really is a challenge for me.   I  might have to sell my stuff off just to avoid the interaction and the demand to  see my papers.

I should just stay out such states, like PA and TX.    If Kentucky is that way, I may have to sell off a bit of my stuff.      I will have to investigate our laws and determine what to do from there.

You are certainly my type of person.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

still cracks me up that folks think because its federaly ok or ok in there state that no other state have laws on the books that basicly say you can be hauled in for NFA items by local PO PO and you will have your day in court to prove your innocent by handing over the paper work.  Even showing it to the cops they can still take you in and let you prove its registered with the ATF and the you will be let go but You will still be out cash for an attorney and some time behind bars till you see the judge or post bail.

Thanks god Texas just got this law changed and starting Feb1 you should be safe from getting hauled in if you show the cop your paperwork

So if you want to STICK it to the man and not show the papers good luck to you and enjoy the time behind bars to think about how you really showed them ;) and if you live in a free state that you dont have to show proof congrats to you. but I bet being a dick to the cops will only lead to them finding something to mess with out about.

Is it presumptively legal?  It's legal IF you have the right paperwork.  It's not presumed you do have the right paperwork.  NFA is legal in loads of states, but premised on the fact that you have complied with federal law.  Granted, most are not like Texas (or how it used to be) where the paperwork was defense to prosecution but you could still take the ride.  But I think people need to understand that in MOST states, NFA stuff is NOT PRESUMPTIVELY legal.

Now, fact of the matter is that in most states, officers will look the other way loads of times.  For instance, in FL, I've never had an officer bother me about my suppressors, my SBRs, or my SBS.  They're all legal in Florida, provided you have the paperwork to back them up.  But I've never been checked up on by LEOs about that stuff when I've been transporting or shooting.

The machine guns are a different matter.  It's not something LEOs see very often when they hit a range.  So they raise eyebrows and it's more likely they'll approach and ask about them.  

But make no mistake.  The law doesn't presume or assume that any of this stuff is legal.  Cops at their discretion can and often do look the other way in areas where they're popular enough to be fairly commonplace.  But they do look twice at stuff that is unusual, and in most cases that's machine guns and nothing is presumed legal.  They have a right under their own state law to ask a question or two to feel you out and assess the situation.  And it their state provides for it, the could ask to see your paperwork.  Now, you can refuse to show them/call their bluff and they might back down, but others might not.  And in states like Texas, where it was only a defense to prosecution, you're going to take the ride in that case whereas if you would have just shown them the form, they might have been lenient and just let you keep shooting.



If all this stuff was presumed legal, nobody would bother with forms.  The odds of you running into an ATF agent is ridiculously low and if local LEOs are presuming everything legal, you could pretty much do anything you want with impunity.  Go ahead and drill holes in all your receivers if you think that it'll be presumptively legal.  Odds of you running into an ATF agent are probably 1 in 100,000 or higher.  You want to take that risk?  

Don't assume that anyone presumes anything, particularly with regard to laws in any state.

I would disagree.
Not every FA an officer would potentially  encounter is absolutely going to be legally papered as required


A noise complaint is a legitimate LE call.

So when you get pulled over in a traffic stop, do you refuse to show them your registration because they have no reason to think it isn't your car?

If I was on private property, I might.

If a cop is at my house for a noise violation, what right does he have, without a warrant, to view my car registration or the deed to my home or my will?

Good points.    

Don't get into NFA if you are not in state that is a free state.  

Be prepared to show ID,  Form 4s, and private trust to any flunky that shows up.  

Remember, that gun and badge allow them to do as they please.   It might be wise to offer up one's woman if the cop seems interested.

I can't see why people don't want anything to do with cops.

Good advice.  

Putting up with jokers trying to pretend they know what they are doing is one thing.    Having those same clowns destroy your life over nothing is another.  

At the very least, I won't be going to non free states at the very least.    At worst, I'll be selling off NFA stuff and maybe more.    

Bad comparison.
In the OPs case the shooting is directly tied in with the noise complaint

Their is no question about that.    A cop can find any made up excuse for just about anything anytime.   We have  heard about  it  years past.    Now, with the internet and camera phones, we all actually get to see to the crap pulled  and posted to the www.   It can be anything from a failure to signal, weaving, to "I think I smell pot".    None of it can be disputed.    

Of course the reality is that thinking one has a full auto from the sound of rapid fire alone is akin to thinking one is raising illegal exotic animals after only hearing  hoof beats.   But, cops can do just that and will.

I don't like having to be a boot licker.   So, I will be investigating furthering limiting my travels in the future  and possibly getting out the NFA game.    It is not worth having to put up with crap.    

That is a good point.    Do city, county, and state police know what a driver's license and registration is?    Can they validate them and are they trained to do so?    Or, do
they ask to see the deed to one's house to verify their license is correct?       Clearly , local cops  who know little to nothing about  NFA items and laws.   Of course they have absolutely no business requesting documents that they should not such as "trust" and reviewing  and questioning documents they cannot verify such  as form 1's and form 4's.     IF they can do those things correctly and accurately, then have at it.   If not, then it is absolutely wrong to do so.    

Not knowing everything about NFA items is not wrong.    Destroying people's lives over the same is wrong and should be criminal.  

I might be getting out the NFA game, at a loss if I have to.    I certainly won't be going to non free states, even without NFA items.  

Traffic stop? You mean a legal stop where I have been observed violating the law, or a blatantly unlawful stop where I have been pulled over for no reason whatsoever?

Not every car is not a stolen car. It is unlawful for you to pull over people who have broken no law just so you can fish for imp[roper papers or other criminal activity. This is called pretext for a stop. Are you sure you are a cop? Didn't they go over this with you in POST?



Indeed it is. It is not grounds for further investigation if the officer arrives and observes that the noise is secondary to presumptively legal behavior. A crank calling in a noise complaint in Indianapolis would not be justification for a cop pulling onto the speedway and halting drivers to check their creds at the Indianapolis 500.

And bumpfiring, bump stocks, and TacCon triggers could make the same racket.    For that reason,   cigarette smokers should be stopped and checked for their federal tax stamps and to verify they are not token on a doobie.

So you object so much to showing a copy of the form that verifies that item is legal SO much that you're going to sell all of your goods?
Makes no sense.



Why are you guys trying to link apples and oranges like firearms and cigarette smokers.
As far as small amounts of pot that's a ticket here and hardly worth the time invested in writing it up.

The officers is within their rights to verify that the appropriate documentation exists that the firearm is legal.

We don't have "POST here; that's a Western US thing.

If the noise is verified it wasn't a crank call. The noise actually existed as reported. Now, most shooting complaints don't come in to us as "noise", they come in as shots fired.

Once its been verified that everything at the scene is legal then yeah it is time to clear and go on to the next call, with the shooters and complainant advised on how to handle future similar incidents depending on the facts of that incident.

How is the legal ownership of firearms related to a noise complaint? If they want to investigate the legality of my firearms on private property, show me a warrant. If the noise came from speakers in the home or car on private property, would they then be justified in demanding to see the registration of the car and the deed to the home.

What is apples and oranges? Two dissimilar activities? It's the underlying principle, not the action itself.

As far as "not worth it" what does that even mean?

Before I ever got into NFA stuff, my biggest issue was the exposure, or over exposure.   Let's says cops are just doing their jobs.   Look at how most people do their jobs.   That isn't good enough for me.   I expect as much dedication and professionalism from a copy as I do a MD, or maybe more.   Yes, more.  

Makes no sense to you.   OK.   I am fine with that.    It makes absolutely no sense to me that people smoke, drink, and do drugs.  But, they do.   For me, I want to limit my exposure to being needlessly bothered.  

It is not apples and oranges.    It is various types of oranges against other types of oranges and apples against other types of apples.    How so?   These are federal issues, in general that generally only have training and education at the federal level, generally.   Such things are handle by the ATF (firearms and tobacco) along with the DEA.    I am not referring to stuff within the bounds of local "tickets"

BEFORE THIS GETS NASTY ...

PLEASE allow me the opportunity to thank all of you for hashing this out.    Whether or not we agree or have opposing views,  we can all learn from this.    I am trying to take the opportunity to appreciate the many view points and experiences presented here.   I encourage each of you to try to do the same.  

I do see this thread as a true blessing.

For me, I want to think this through.    I may change a few aspects of my life or several of them in the future.   But, it has started here.   It is better that I consider now, from this forum than from another of my own personal experiences.    I don't have to learn everything the hard way.   I can look at situations and just determine those situations are not for me.    

I am an old retired war horse.   I now work in the white collar sector.    I live well within my means and can appear to be somewhat modest on the surface with regard to my life.      Through most of my life, I have served God, the Church, Family, my country, and my friends.   It has not always been in that order.    I find how I have changed to be ironic.   Now as an old man.   I find that answering to others has become very difficult and challenging.    My respect for authority figures has plummeted, though I go to extremes to follow the law out of respect for my own life.   For me, one of my preferred tactics in dealing with authority figures is avoidance.    I void placing myself in situations were I have to listen to others.   Without question,  this has added get joy to my life.    This old man's syndrome is not uncommon.   Many of us just want to be left the devil alone.   I know I suffer from a disease called becoming a curmudgeon.  

I do try to understand what is happening to me and the changes within me  in relation to the world around me.    I also encourage each of you to take some time to reflect accordingly and an examine the changes within yourself.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled arguments.

Because the firearms were found in the course of investigating the original complaint
A type of firearm for which specific paperwork is needed in order to be legal was observed to be at the scene.
The officer, as I have said, is justified in verifying that the firearm was legal.
I suppose you could argue as some have that it might be a bumpfire stock, but in that case show that that's what is being used.



The time invested in writing up the ticket for a small user amount of pot vs wind testing the stuff and clearing to respond to the next call.
Not worth it.
pretty much self -explainantory

Under what authority? 1) What reason does the officer have to suspect any illegal activity? 2) Even then if he suspects illegal activity, what gives the police the right to see my papers and search my things without a warrant on private property?

If the noise complaint originated from construction on the property, would the police be allowed to check the immigration status of the workers just because they were Mexican, or check to make sure I was not paying them under the table instead of as contractors?

The police are there to investigate a noise complaint. Other investigation is outside the purview of the visit.

As far as the "not worth it", it is not self-explanatory whatsoever. Either you're saying the police don't make enough money on the violation so it's not worth the cost of the manpower, or you're saying you don't want to spend your time enforcing a law. Neither sounds good. If it's not worth enforcing, it's not worth having as a law. If it's a bad law, enforce it fully...that's the quickest way to get it changed.

I think I get your point that the cop was doing his required job in that state by asking about the gun.     I may not like that and want to avoid that, but so be it.

The point about the trust compared to  demanding a car registration or deed to a home upon investing loud music at a dwelling is still outstanding.     That seems way out there and completely out of line to me.    

Specifically, If I am out shooting on private property and not a business, I would not be happy with a cop demanding to see a my trust.  That certainly does not sound Kosher.    I seriously doubt an ATF agent would do that.   (Maybe I should investigate that point further.)   I am not saying I would not have it.    But, I would be just as torn as I would be if a cop requested to search my vehicle.    I may very well have to take the long way just to do the right thing instead of the easy thing.  

I see this a lot.   Probably one of the most common I see are bicycling laws broken.    I am a cyclist.    My head just about explodes when I see bikers riding on sidewalks.  I know the city would be better off if the cyclist were forced to follow the law.   Motorist would hate it.  But, it would become common place, and people would adjust.     The law should be enforced or dropped.    I would be fine with either.

I get it that you just want to be argumentative
Good luck with that approach in real life

Not at all. I don't see why people can't discuss and debate without being called "argumentative". Positing alternative scenarios based on the underlying premise is being argumentative?

It's crazy that some police might be so concerned about whether or not I paid a $200 (or even a $5) tax to the feds.  

I've never been asked in AK.  I thought I was going to get asked the time my son and I were running full auto fire and movement drills to get ready for a competition.  There were about 50 police in the next range over for a training class.  Some of them kept peeking around the corner at us.  I finally had to go over and say hi.  They just wanted to talk guns.

Or your tax return?

You should be prepared to face the reality that uneducated LEOs may temporarily seize your NFA stuff.

I don't agree with it, just telling you how the game is going to be played.