NFA Legal Guide Chart (updated 20 April, final AR. HK 2.0, AK 1.0) - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - NFA Legal Guide Chart (updated 20 April, final AR. HK 2.0, AK 1.0)

Posted: 3/29/2014 6:57:17 AM EDT

I had this idea after reading thread after thread of the same questions regarding NFA configurations for rifles, pistols, SBRs, AOWs, etc. I used the pimp my gun site and not real pictures as it does have illegal configurations and posting pics of my own stuff illegally would be dumb. I first posted in another thread and kinda hijacked it but some good discussion came of it. Here is my own thread. Let me know what else I should change for a final draft. Say box 5 needs x, y, and z or whatever. I will delete older versions of the chart to not have them floating around.

This is just a guide!! I encourage everyone to do their own research but this should be a good starting point. Your own local laws may differ (CONGRATS MICHIGAN!!) I am not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express...I just own Class 3 stuff and have been reading about it for 6 years. I hate to see guys running around with illegal stuff when they have no idea.

Final (for now) Version of the AR15 chart

HK Version 2

AK Version 1

The AK version will probably need some work and research on my part. I only researched enough for my own personal AK SBR and not every other one under the sun. I applied rules I know for AR and HK, there might be some AK specific rules.

Talk amongst y'selves.

Posted: 3/29/2014 7:23:51 AM EDT

[#1]

Nice guide, but with regards to #10, it is my understanding that a vfg is okay if the overall length exceeds 26"...

Posted: 3/29/2014 8:13:57 AM EDT

[#2]

Would also be nice to have virgin complete lower w/ stock pic, never assembled, remove stock, GTG as pistol.

#2 is only constructive intent if you have no other longarms that will accept that stock. Might show various buffer tubes on pistol - rifle, mil-spec, commercial, & pistol - all legal.

Mad PowerPoint skilz, OP.

Posted: 3/29/2014 10:16:31 AM EDT

[#3]

It is constructive possession, not constructive intent.

Posted: 3/29/2014 10:58:31 AM EDT

[#4]

Looks really good except for the 26inch pistol can have a vfg

Posted: 4/5/2014 9:49:53 AM EDT

[#5]

Update 3.

Added buffer tube comparison chart for use with pistol builds

Added 26" OAL part

Added Box 2, spare parts portion

I'm an Army staff CPT, powerpoint and excel are all I do all day, everyday. I have made excel reloading calculators, ammo & component trackers, all my guns are in a tracker with all pertinent data, parts build charts with price calculators.

Posted: 4/5/2014 10:19:59 AM EDT

[#6]

You may want to read the bottom of page 2. ATF ruling.

Posted: 4/5/2014 10:26:17 AM EDT

[#7]

agent maine

i presume

Posted: 4/5/2014 11:02:33 AM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
You may want to read the bottom of page 2. ATF ruling.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
You may want to read the bottom of page 2. ATF ruling.

...and roger.

Me personally, I would not dabble in having spare stocks lying around with no rifle to attach them to. I have an SBR stamp and another pistol lower so I can have as many as I want. If I did NOT have those two items, I wouldn't and I don't advise others to have spare parts laying around. If they have a pistol, put a pistol buffer tube on so there's no question, end of story.

I also just remembered I saw this week that the SIG brace MAY BE attached to a pistol and fired from the shoulder as an SBR would, additionally a standard pistol buffer tube could be placed into the shoulder and fired in that manner. It would be uncomfortable but still work.

Quoted:
agent maine

i presume

Classic.

The entire time I have spent on this chart I was hoping an ATF agent would pop up and throw their two cents. After all, they make the rules. I have read all those rulings multiple times and am still not totally convinced everyone knows all the nuances. This is what prompted me to make the picture chart, I don't speak legalese, I am not a lawyer, I can look at pictures and compare to what I have though.

If an ATF agent wants to PM me his email address I will gladly send them the power point I used to make this so they can take it from happy to glad.

As I type this I am working on the HK version, it is 10x more complicated than the AR version.

Posted: 4/5/2014 11:09:44 AM EDT

[#9]

Don't know if it'll all fit one one page, but the SIG pistol brace should be added, and a picture of the difference btwn 14.5", 14.7", & 16" bbls could be added. Nice work.

Do you want to cover PG shotguns w/ the Turk .410" upper?

When I had my AR pistol, I had a rifle tube on it, but owned no AR stocks.

Posted: 4/5/2014 2:01:02 PM EDT

[#10]

I'm sure this nothing more than my OCD working against me, but IMHO, if the sides of the boxes lined up with each other a little better, it would look a lot nicer. I spent like two minutes on it and came up with this.

I didn't mess with the spacing between the boxes.

One other note - in the lower right, I believe "nationwide" would be the correct term.

Other than that, cool work. Beneficial to many.

Posted: 4/8/2014 6:22:48 PM EDT

[#11]

Gents, I added the SIG brace, tweaked box 2 at the suggestion from our good friends at the BATFE

cleaned up the box borders, and a few other minor things. I think I am pretty close to a final product. What says the hive?

Here is a sneak peak at my next one, the HK version. I will post up on HKpro as the masters are there but what says arfcom on this one? Draft 1, mostly the same rules but different pics.

Posted: 4/8/2014 7:27:14 PM EDT

[#12]

I like. Thanks much for putting me onto the entry tube - I think that may become very important @ my day job.

How do we know you love the A2 carry handle?

Posted: 4/8/2014 7:47:28 PM EDT

[#13]

You put some work into that.

Posted: 4/8/2014 7:48:14 PM EDT

[#14]

Nice work

I fall under 5 for AR platform. I need to work on my Hk collection lol.

Posted: 4/8/2014 10:42:05 PM EDT

[#15]

Nice

Posted: 4/9/2014 5:54:28 AM EDT

[#16]

Apparently a mod on HKpro did not take kindly to my idea and deleted my thread without notifying me anything. Trying to be over litigious and cautious I presume. If anyone would be stupid enough to use something in their legal defense, well I did specify I am not a lawyer etc.

Posted: 4/9/2014 9:11:19 AM EDT

[#17]

Ah, obfuscate, obfuscate. Keep away from the fence. In fact, let's build a fence around the fence so you can't get close to the fence. Let's build another fence around that...

Posted: 4/9/2014 11:50:33 AM EDT

[#18]

Taggage!

Posted: 4/18/2014 8:57:04 AM EDT

[#19]

Thanks for all the feedback fellas. AR15 version is complete. I reworked a little bit of HK version, and started the AK version. Jury is still out on the HK registered sear pack swappage. I think it is must follow SBR laws when swapping the pack around.

Guy has PTR Pistol and Sear pack. He wants to put a stock on the pistol and shoot really fast. He can either permanently put the sear pack in the pistol and add a stock, OR SBR the pistol, OR also have a full size PTR rifle and use that stock when using pistol as MG host. When Sear is removed from pistol, he must put pistol end cap back on and put stock back on rifle.

Does that make sense? I'm not going to ask on HK pro for fear of being banned. They already deleted my thread once.

Posted: 4/18/2014 9:15:52 AM EDT

[#20]

Think he just has to remove the stock from the pistol, and have another receiver w/ a 16" bbl that can take the stock. Our theoretical rich guy shouldn't have to actually install the stock back on the rifle.

Should be the same as a DIAS on an AR. Drop DIAS into 11" bbl pistol, add stock, 'chut it, remove stock, remove DIAS. Poof! A pistol once again.

BTW, you cost me money. Ordered 3 entry tubes from ACE yesterday. Now I have to not only build a whole 'nuther stock, I have to model it in MLCAD and write instructions...

Posted: 4/18/2014 10:18:50 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
Think he just has to remove the stock from the pistol, and have another receiver w/ a 16" bbl that can take the stock. Our theoretical rich guy shouldn't have to actually install the stock back on the rifle.

Should be the same as a DIAS on an AR. Drop DIAS into 11" bbl pistol, add stock, 'chut it, remove stock, remove DIAS. Poof! A pistol once again.

BTW, you cost me money. Ordered 3 entry tubes from ACE yesterday. Now I have to not only build a whole 'nuther stock, I have to model it in MLCAD and write instructions...

View Quote

I have cost a lot of people a lot of money with my brain housing group full of gun knowledge. I would like to see this stock you are designing / building. UBR type thing?

Posted: 4/18/2014 11:38:19 AM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted: I have cost a lot of people a lot of money with my brain housing group full of gun knowledge. I would like to see this stock you are designing / building. UBR type thing?

View Quote

Posted: 4/20/2014 6:31:33 PM EDT

[#23]

I see, a stock made from Legos, welp, better send the ATF to the toy aisle....

I updated in the first post final AR15 (until it changes) HK v2, AK v1, and deleted all older versions to avoid confusion when referencing. If someone has a correction or addition, say "HK box 3 needs xyz" etc.

Posted: 4/20/2014 8:00:59 PM EDT

[#24]

AK bx 5 last sentence seems to be a fragment.

If you're going to address receiver flats in the HK & AK boxes, are you going to take on AR 80%?

One hypothetical I have regarding non-firearms. I have an AR rifle. I have an 80% receiver. I have a 7" bbl. Does the 80% lower protect me as my future pistol lower for the 7" bbl, or am I in violation of the NFA? I'm not sure it's been adjudicated.

Or run the other way. I have an AK pistol. I have an AK receiver flat. I have an AK stock. Does the receiver flat protect me as my future rifle receiver for the stock, or am I in violation of the NFA?

Posted: 4/21/2014 6:44:34 AM EDT

[#25]

I would say to both receiver flats and 80% lowers No, they would not protect you from having a stock or short barrel. That is only my thoughts though. Since both are unregulated and not considered a firearm, they cannot accept either barrel or stock. (80% lowers have the receiver extension threads, so they *could*). That scenario should probably have a yellow triangle at minimum if not a red X.

How dumb are these laws? I can have a hacksaw and title 1 firearm all day long. That is THE only tool you need to make a short barrel firearm.

Posted: 4/21/2014 7:01:13 AM EDT

[#26]

Cool chart, thanks!

Posted: 4/21/2014 8:48:05 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
I would say to both receiver flats and 80% lowers No, they would not protect you from having a stock or short barrel. That is only my thoughts though. Since both are unregulated and not considered a firearm, they cannot accept either barrel or stock. (80% lowers have the receiver extension threads, so they *could*). That scenario should probably have a yellow triangle at minimum if not a red X.

How dumb are these laws? I can have a hacksaw and title 1 firearm all day long. That is THE only tool you need to make a short barrel firearm.

View Quote

You can thank FDR for the NFA. He was trying to ban pistols and failed.