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Posted: 11/19/2012 2:47:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 2:47:25 AM EST by Lancelot]
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT. I do not have the required machinery to produce my own lower receiver capable of receiving full auto parts. Is there a MFG that sell lowers already milled to receive auto parts? If so, who are they?

Thanks and Regards,
Eric
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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:45:22 PM EST
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?
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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:49:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/18/2012 9:50:21 PM EST by emopunker2004]
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


Did you even read the OPs post?

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT.

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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:50:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


No.
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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:53:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


Did you even read the OPs post?

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT.



Yes, but I have no clue what a SOT is and google's recommendation of Society of Toxicology didn't seem quite accurate.

Does that mean he has a legal DIAS?
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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:56:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


Did you even read the OPs post?

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT.



I'm sure he read it. He just has no idea what an 07/02/SOT is.
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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:59:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


Did you even read the OPs post?

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT.



Yes, but I have no clue what a SOT is and google's recommendation of Society of Toxicology didn't seem quite accurate.

Does that mean he has a legal DIAS?


No. It means he can manufacture SBRs, FA, suppressors, etc., however, there are limitations.

Type 7 FFL: Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.
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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:09:55 PM EST
with the proper parts and the proper receiver you can do wonders. look at previous posts for receivers. parts, well, online...
what business plan do you have that you don't know this?

not calling out, curious

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT. I do not have the required machinery to produce my own lower receiver capable of receiving full auto parts. Is there a MFG that sell lowers already milled to receive auto parts? If so, who are they?

Thanks and Regards,
Eric
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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:14:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


Did you even read the OPs post?

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT.



Yes, but I have no clue what a SOT is and google's recommendation of Society of Toxicology didn't seem quite accurate.

Does that mean he has a legal DIAS?


No. It means he can manufacture SBRs, FA, suppressors, etc., however, there are limitations.

Type 7 FFL: Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.


How does the manufacturing of a full auto rifle work when full auto is banned? Is it for LE/Military sale only?
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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:22:36 PM EST
Full auto is not banned.
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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:47:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


Did you even read the OPs post?

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT.



Yes, but I have no clue what a SOT is and google's recommendation of Society of Toxicology didn't seem quite accurate.

Does that mean he has a legal DIAS?


No. It means he can manufacture SBRs, FA, suppressors, etc., however, there are limitations.

Type 7 FFL: Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.


How does the manufacturing of a full auto rifle work when full auto is banned? Is it for LE/Military sale only?


Full auto is not banned. Same as Short barrel shotguns and rifles, suppressors, destructive devices, and Any Other Weapons (cellphone gun, etc)

They just require a tax stamp and (usually) a high price on full auto stuff. As a manufacturer, he can make them to test stuff in the shop or sell to .gov or police, provided he does the proper paperwork.

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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:56:39 PM EST
Ahh, I was under the impression it had to be pre 1986 and registered. Didnt know there was a legal way of doing it with new rifles
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Posted: 11/18/2012 11:22:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT. I do not have the required machinery to produce my own lower receiver capable of receiving full auto parts. Is there a MFG that sell lowers already milled to receive auto parts? If so, who are they?

Thanks and Regards,
Eric
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You could have it done by another 07/02, but then you'd need a demo letter and have it transferred to you on a Form 3. You might be able to commission another shop to do it with a variance letter, not sure. Personally, if I was in your shoes, I'd get a lower that was ready to go except for the sear pin hole. Then I'd get a drill press and drill the hole myself and send off the Form 2.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:48:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By CavTrooper17th:
Full auto is not banned.


Just an old wives tale.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:51:19 AM EST
There is milling needed inside the receiver needed for the sear assembly. You will not find a receiver that just needs the hole drilled.
You could have one done on a variance but having just 1 receiver done isn't really worth anyone's time with all the paperwork.

So you'll probably have to go the demo letter route. I would say to just make a DIAS but if you cant mill out a receiver you wouldn't have the equipment to do that either

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Posted: 11/19/2012 2:25:51 AM EST
sorry to continue derailing the thread, but if it is legal to manufacture them than why arent there more full autos out there?
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Posted: 11/18/2012 8:48:14 PM EST
Would you be talking about "low shelf" lowers? If so, Google, you'll find plenty.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 3:17:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
sorry to continue derailing the thread, but if it is legal to manufacture them than why arent there more full autos out there?


Only FA manufactured and registered before Mid 1986 are allowed to be legally transfered to regular civilians.

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Posted: 11/19/2012 4:02:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 4:14:20 AM EST by eltice]

Originally Posted By midwinter:
with the proper parts and the proper receiver you can do wonders. look at previous posts for receivers. parts, well, online...
what business plan do you have that you don't know this?

not calling out, curious

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT. I do not have the required machinery to produce my own lower receiver capable of receiving full auto parts. Is there a MFG that sell lowers already milled to receive auto parts? If so, who are they?

Thanks and Regards,
Eric
Z&R Sporting Goods


Fair question!

I have my 07 so that I can assemble and sell AR's through the business, which I do. The SOT is to sell Suppressors, which I do. I want to build and "test" a FA and suppressor together.

I agree about the proper parts....I have all of the required internals, just not the lower receiver to receive them.

To another post, The receiver is more than a "low shelf" though. There is a little more machining....auto sear pin hole, the "pocket" is a machined wider, etc....
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Posted: 11/19/2012 4:29:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 4:30:05 AM EST by mygreenkaw]
Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Originally Posted By emopunker2004:
Originally Posted By shadow7874:
Umm, wouldnt it be illegal?


Did you even read the OPs post?

Originally Posted By eltice:
I currently have my type 07 FFL and my current SOT.



Yes, but I have no clue what a SOT is and google's recommendation of Society of Toxicology didn't seem quite accurate.

Does that mean he has a legal DIAS?


No. It means he can manufacture SBRs, FA, suppressors, etc., however, there are limitations.

Type 7 FFL: Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Must also register with the Department Of State under the ITAR Current registration costs start at $2,250 per year. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.


Does the ITAR apply to the 07 FFL, the SOT, or only required if you want to deal in destructive devices

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Posted: 11/19/2012 4:37:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By VarmitSniper:
There is milling needed inside the receiver needed for the sear assembly. You will not find a receiver that just needs the hole drilled.


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Posted: 11/19/2012 7:11:58 AM EST
Just fine somebody with a post sample reciever for sale and do a transfer.

Try subguns.net under the classified section, post a WTB post sample.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 8:20:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By tailo:
Just fine somebody with a post sample reciever for sale and do a transfer.

Try subguns.net under the classified section, post a WTB post sample.


He will need a demo letter to do a transfer.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 8:34:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 8:34:34 AM EST by VarmitSniper]
Originally Posted By tailo:
Just fine somebody with a post sample reciever for sale and do a transfer.

Try subguns.net under the classified section, post a WTB post sample.


Too bad it's Not that easy..
Needs to have a demo letter
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Posted: 11/19/2012 8:35:21 AM EST
Doesn't he need a demo letter to 'make' one also?
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Posted: 11/19/2012 8:36:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Doesn't he need a demo letter to 'make' one also?


No.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:48:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 12:59:00 PM EST by mdsuccer]
You can have the receivers made for you with a variance from the ATF's Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) . You can go the "law letter" route as others have stated and is your best bet for one or possibly two machine gun transfers.

ATF Publication - Chapter 7

Check out section 7.4.4.2

Most larger manufacturers (Remington, S&W, FN etc.) make and mill most if not all of their stuff in-house but the little guys sub contract the expensive stuff to a more efficient operations. I'm not sure about an order for one or two, most of the big guys require a LARGE orders but another manufacturer might be able to help you out with an approved variance. However, the paperwork isn't that bad; the approval process tends to take a while.

I used to work for one of the larger machine companies and saw a lot of name brand names go through there.

Good luck.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:51:16 PM EST
If you have the 07 with the SOT 02 you are allowed to manufacture a dealer sample machine gun, you'll need the ok from the ATF for each one you make someone with experience on the subject will chime in sooner or later. You'll need the trigger, hammer, selector and sear which has its own pin. The lower itself requires some work for some of these parts. There's a seller on Gunbroker who sells the jig for this which is ok for you to buy if you have the proper licenses. The parts are a little different than AR-15 parts.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:56:44 PM EST
With the 07/02 you make the item then file a form 2 no need to get permission.

What i can't understand is why someone would get the 07/02 knowing they don't have the equipment and skills to make anything
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Posted: 11/19/2012 3:09:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By VarmitSniper:
With the 07/02 you make the item then file a form 2 no need to get permission.

What i can't understand is why someone would get the 07/02 knowing they don't have the equipment and skills to make anything


He said earlier why he did... He "manufacturers" ARs which requires an 07. He got an 02 to deal in suppressors. Makes more sense in getting an 07/03 since that limits you from creating posties even if you wanted.

Op, either use a NFA polymer lower that doesn't require any machining, or break out your drill press or dremel and widen the pocket yourself. Outside of the NFA lowers, I don't know of any that have a wide pocket.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 3:42:45 PM EST
If I had 07/02 & paid ITAR fees, I would view this as an opportunity to learn the process of making a DIAS and eventually mill a receiver. They're tax-free post samples made under a manufacturing license - it's a chance to build and T&E things that we non-licensees don't have.

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Posted: 11/20/2012 2:00:14 AM EST
Hoping someone can answer the question about ITAR fees, they must be paid along with having 07/02 before dealer samples can be manufactured?
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Posted: 11/20/2012 11:08:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By mygreenkaw:
Hoping someone can answer the question about ITAR fees, they must be paid along with having 07/02 before dealer samples can be manufactured?


Legally, yes.
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Posted: 11/20/2012 12:17:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
Originally Posted By mygreenkaw:
Hoping someone can answer the question about ITAR fees, they must be paid along with having 07/02 before dealer samples can be manufactured?


Legally, yes.


I researched this quite a while ago and seem to remember that there was a small minority of people who were able to bypass ITAR. They were using their license solely for R&D of weapons systems, but performing no transfers or sales. IIRC, that little variance/exception, if it ever existed, is no longer available.
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Posted: 11/20/2012 4:31:48 PM EST
Isn't this just for import/export requirements?
I'm reading now but don't understand how this applies to an 07/02 making a dealer sample that remains in the US and is only for R&D.
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Posted: 11/20/2012 4:52:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By mygreenkaw:
Isn't this just for import/export requirements?
I'm reading now but don't understand how this applies to an 07/02 making a dealer sample that remains in the US and is only for R&D.


Bureaucrats saw an opportunity to grab some extra money and power. There's nobody higher up on the food chain that would be friendly to an SOT on appeal to ATF leadership. "This has potential ITAR ramifications" is the bean counters' version of "this falls under our authority to regulate interstate commerce."
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Posted: 11/23/2012 5:02:35 AM EST
Thanks for all of the replys, i know what needs done and have the parts, I will do it the "hard" way, without a milling machine. I think it will be a great learning experience. :)

As another post stated, I am using this as an opportunity to learn more....I am sure everyone started somewhere and gained their knowledge through practice, asking ?'s and studying.

My understanding, that as long as I paid my SOT and do not sell/transfer (to LE/gov't) the demo, there are no other "tax" implications and I am legally allowed to posses the FA as long as I continue to pay my SOT. If/when it every does lapse, I must destroy the weapon.

Thanks again and hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.
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Posted: 11/23/2012 9:35:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By eltice:
Thanks for all of the replys, i know what needs done and have the parts, I will do it the "hard" way, without a milling machine. I think it will be a great learning experience. :)

As another post stated, I am using this as an opportunity to learn more....I am sure everyone started somewhere and gained their knowledge through practice, asking ?'s and studying.

My understanding, that as long as I paid my SOT and do not sell/transfer (to LE/gov't) the demo, there are no other "tax" implications and I am legally allowed to posses the FA as long as I continue to pay my SOT. If/when it every does lapse, I must destroy the weapon.

Thanks again and hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.


The only tax implication is ITAR. It is due if you manufacture anything on the munitions list.
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Posted: 11/28/2012 7:54:45 AM EST
Why not manufacture a DIAS or LL?
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