 jestertoo
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Posted: 7/7/2010 2:12:12 PM
[Last Edit: 7/7/2010 5:30:06 PM by jestertoo]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT J ETA: I'll be making updates to the image below in place as people suggest them. 
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cedricxerxes
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Posted: 7/7/2010 2:36:50 PM
Were you going to cover suppressors or VFG Pistol AOW's?
OAL<26" for SBR's and SBS's. You have 28" and XX" |
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jestertoo
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Posted: 7/7/2010 3:36:51 PM
[Last Edit: 7/7/2010 3:43:35 PM by jestertoo]
Originally Posted By cedricxerxes:
Were you going to cover suppressors or VFG Pistol AOW's? OAL<26" for SBR's and SBS's. You have 28" and XX" Fixed the OAL and had already added the VFG to the pistol :) Suppressors are pretty self explanatory, but I can add a box for it. |
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Posted: 7/7/2010 4:17:14 PM
Dont forget the state forms that you have to fill out for La
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Posted: 7/7/2010 4:31:33 PM
You forgot the FBHO box.
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cedricxerxes
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Posted: 7/7/2010 4:53:11 PM
Not sure about the smooth bore pistol logic...
Barrel < 18" = No ––––> Pistol? = Yes ––––> AOW By this do you mean a Pistol with a barrel > 18" = AOW? Isn't this just a Title 1 long gun? What about pistol-gripped shotguns that have never had a stock with barrels less than 18"? They would be AOW's. Is that the case you are trying to cover? |
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jestertoo
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Posted: 7/7/2010 5:07:54 PM
Originally Posted By cedricxerxes:
Not sure about the smooth bore pistol logic... Barrel < 18" = No ––––> Pistol? = Yes ––––> AOW By this do you mean a Pistol with a barrel > 18" = AOW? Isn't this just a Title 1 long gun? What about pistol-gripped shotguns that have never had a stock with barrels less than 18"? They would be AOW's. Is that the case you are trying to cover? Thanks. I'll fix it. |
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cedricxerxes
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Posted: 7/8/2010 4:59:43 PM
Not sure you want to go into this level of detail, but there are at least two ATF Rulings that classify certain semi-automatic, open-bolt firearms as machine guns. Depending upon their manufacture/assembly date, they are either Title I or Title II firearms.
ATF Rul. 82-2 KG-9 pistols manufactured on or after January 19, 1982 are subject to NFA. Here's a pre-82 for sale for only $5000! 
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=141226 Two KG-9's for $5000. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=248415 Recent Gunbroker auction for $1400. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=177077617 ATF Rul. 82-8 SM10 and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines, manufactured or assembled on or after June 21, 1982 are subject to NFA. |
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jestertoo
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Posted: 7/9/2010 12:22:49 PM
Originally Posted By cedricxerxes:
Not sure you want to go into this level of detail, but there are at least two ATF Rulings that classify certain semi-automatic, open-bolt firearms as machine guns. Depending upon their manufacture/assembly date, they are either Title I or Title II firearms. ATF Rul. 82-2 KG-9 pistols manufactured on or after January 19, 1982 are subject to NFA. Here's a pre-82 for sale for only $5000!
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=141226 Two KG-9's for $5000. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=248415 Recent Gunbroker auction for $1400. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=177077617 ATF Rul. 82-8 SM10 and SM11A1 pistols and SAC carbines, manufactured or assembled on or after June 21, 1982 are subject to NFA. I can go add that in easy enough. J |
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Jack_Of_Some_Trades
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Posted: 7/11/2010 4:54:23 PM
note that there is a different definition for "antique firearms" as it applies to the NFA versus the GCA. For instance, a pre-98 lever-action rifle with a 14" barrel is considered an SBR, but your flowchart says it is legal.
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jestertoo
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Posted: 7/11/2010 10:22:22 PM
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
note that there is a different definition for "antique firearms" as it applies to the NFA versus the GCA. For instance, a pre-98 lever-action rifle with a 14" barrel is considered an SBR, but your flowchart says it is legal. You are partially correct. Most of those guns are listed in 5300.11 Section 3 as removed from the NFA, but they are still Title I guns under GCA. Section 3A shows some 1892's removed from NFA AND the GCA as antiques. Jess |
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Jack_Of_Some_Trades
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Posted: 7/11/2010 10:35:24 PM
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
note that there is a different definition for "antique firearms" as it applies to the NFA versus the GCA. For instance, a pre-98 lever-action rifle with a 14" barrel is considered an SBR, but your flowchart says it is legal. You are partially correct. Most of those guns are listed in 5300.11 Section 3 as removed from the NFA, but they are still Title I guns under GCA. Section 3A shows some 1892's removed from NFA AND the GCA as antiques. Jess right, BATF has exempted SOME factory 1892s from the NFA, but if I take a standard 1892 or 1887 shotgun and cut it down, I have created an illegal NFA firearm (if I don't have an approved Form 1) even though it is a GCA antique. Your flowchart just says that antique firearms are exempt from the federal rules and shows that antiques don't have to comply wiith the NFA regs, since those questions are asked later in the flowchart. |
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Posted: 8/30/2010 6:35:40 PM
What about short barreled 1919's. They are not SBR's just firearms
They don't seem to follow your flow chart properly |
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jestertoo
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Posted: 8/30/2010 11:21:54 PM
[Last Edit: 8/30/2010 11:22:25 PM by jestertoo]
Originally Posted By Danman:
What about short barreled 1919's. They are not SBR's just firearms They don't seem to follow your flow chart properly Rifles = designed to be shoulder fired. I need to redefine some words to make it more clear. I think the short barreled semi-auto 1919's fall under the pistol category. |
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Jack_Of_Some_Trades
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Posted: 8/31/2010 12:17:36 AM
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
the short barreled 1919a4's are just considered firearms, not pistols. they have to stay over 26" OAL lest they be considered an AOW.
Originally Posted By Danman:
What about short barreled 1919's. They are not SBR's just firearms They don't seem to follow your flow chart properly Rifles = designed to be shoulder fired. I need to redefine some words to make it more clear. I think the short barreled semi-auto 1919's fall under the pistol category. |
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jestertoo
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Posted: 8/31/2010 2:54:02 PM
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
the short barreled 1919a4's are just considered firearms, not pistols. they have to stay over 26" OAL lest they be considered an AOW.
Rifles = designed to be shoulder fired. I need to redefine some words to make it more clear. I think the short barreled semi-auto 1919's fall under the pistol category. So then what is it's distinguishing characteristic that then removes it from both pistol and rifle regs, besides being a 1919? Not designed to be fired from shoulder or hand? |
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Jack_Of_Some_Trades
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Posted: 8/31/2010 3:13:36 PM
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
a standard 1919a4 is not a rifle, since it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder. It is merely a firearm. And the defintion of handgun requires it to be designed to be fired with one hand, which a 1919a4 is not. BATF has said that the barrel of a 1919a4 can be below 16" without violating the law, but that if it goes below 26" OAL, because at that point it is considered a concealable firearm that is not a pistol. I guess since most people could not one hand a cut-down 1919a4, they are saying that it is not a handgun. I wonder what they would say to a modified 1919a4 with the PG relocated to below the action, that might be fireable one-handed.
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
the short barreled 1919a4's are just considered firearms, not pistols. they have to stay over 26" OAL lest they be considered an AOW.
Rifles = designed to be shoulder fired. I need to redefine some words to make it more clear. I think the short barreled semi-auto 1919's fall under the pistol category. So then what is it's distinguishing characteristic that then removes it from both pistol and rifle regs, besides being a 1919? Not designed to be fired from shoulder or hand? 
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jestertoo
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Posted: 9/1/2010 12:00:33 PM
Ok, so a non-pistol, non-rifle "firearm" can have a rifled barrel less than 16" and not be NFA as long as it's >26" OAL.
How, if at all, does this apply to smoothbores? |
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Jack_Of_Some_Trades
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Posted: 9/1/2010 2:30:49 PM
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
Ok, so a non-pistol, non-rifle "firearm" can have a rifled barrel less than 16" and not be NFA as long as it's >26" OAL. How, if at all, does this apply to smoothbores? possibly, that is what this thread is about http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1077741 |
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jestertoo
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Posted: 9/2/2010 1:57:07 PM
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
Ok, so a non-pistol, non-rifle "firearm" can have a rifled barrel less than 16" and not be NFA as long as it's >26" OAL. How, if at all, does this apply to smoothbores? possibly, that is what this thread is about http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1077741 That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. |
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Posted: 12/7/2011 9:40:53 AM
The very first decision point is wrong/incomplete. According to NFA a silencer is a "gun" but it doesn't fire a projectile of any kind in any way. Your silencer question of "Does your device reduce the sound signature?" should be directly after the "no" answer on your first decision point.
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