Originally Posted By Eleven-Bravo228: Anyone have experience flying with NFA? I am planning to relocate and am looking into how much of a hassle it would be to fly with an SBR and a suppressor. Has the experience been the same as with regular firearms or did they"freak out" once you uttered the word..."SILENCER"? Thanks in advanced

I've flown with NFA multiple times. There are a number of things you should do to prepare before travel.

1. Make sure you receive an approved 5320.20 for all NFA (suppressors and AOWs exempted). Note that filing a 5320.20 even for suppressors and AOWs can help later on-- see below for an explanation of the "document dump."

2. Check with the airline before traveling to ensure that they don't restrict certain guns. (For example, America West banned MGs unless you were govt/leo.) You definitely want to find out if they're friendly BEFORE buying those non-refundable tickets!

3. Check with the airline to find out their policy on how to ship the firearm. FAA says that the gun must be in a locked hard sided case. If you're traveling with a smaller weapon, can you put this case into a larger case? Can that outer case be soft-sided? This may or may not be moot depending upon the size of the firearm being transported and/or if the firearm is broken down.

Incidentally, I find that Storm Cases are the BEST firearm cases for air travel.

4. Unless you have a very good reason, buy ammo at your destination. Most airlines have some ridiculously low amount of ammo they allow you to check. Furthermore, being able to say "I have a firearm to declare but I am not traveling with any ammunition" always seems to quiet the most nervous ticketing agent.

5. Find out how your insurance treats a lost or stolen firearm. A strained cell phone conversation in a strange airport is NOT the place to discover that your limit for lost baggage is only $300.00.

6. Have hard copies of the airline's own policies and FAA regs at the ready for any ticketing agents who don't know what they're doing.

Federal law requires you to declare that you are transporting a firearm and to demonstrate that it is unloaded. Forget curb side check-in; you'll be doing this the old-fashioned way. Go to the ticketing agent and say "I have a firearm to declare." They'll give you a tag to sign that says (among other things) that the firearm(s) is/are unloaded. This tag goes inside the case with the firearm(s)! It used to be law that these tags went on the outside of the case- they were known as "steal-me tags" within the airline industry for a reason! Should the ticketing agent attempt to place the tag on the outside, politely explain that they go inside. If they object, demand a supervisor. They are not only placing your firearms in jeopardy, but they're also violating federal law. Remember that the case with the gun(s) must be locked-- don't go anywhere until after security clears the case. They WILL break the locks off if you're not around, and an unlocked case doesn't fly.

In terms of my practice, I just hand my case to the ticketing agent and inform them that firearms are present. (Not "machine guns" or "short barreled rifles" or "sawed off" or whatever-- they're all "firearms." Incidentally, calling a silencer a "barrel extension" avoids a lot of trouble.) Ticketing agents generally don't know what they're looking at anyhow; I've yet to have one that knew how to inspect the gun to ensure it's unloaded and 50% don't even bother checking! I've only had one bit of trouble with an anti-gun ticketing agent-- I just did the document dump and they were cowed.

10 minutes of homework will spare you uncounted hours of trouble. You should be fine; just make sure to plan ahead. I've traveled with all types of NFA weapons on multiple airlines. Aside from that one ticketing agent (which I handled easily enough- see below), it's not an issue.

Good luck,

Mike

The Black Art of the Document Dump: Document dumps are fun when done right but should be rarely done to ensure they don't lose effectiveness. They work well on low to mid-level bureaucrats, politicians, managerial types, secretaries, etc.

As soon as you get any flack, gently brush it aside. Act like this is all old hat, nothing special. Then begin to bring out papers and talk with a bored voice. "Here are copies of my Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (DON'T use the word "explosives" in a %$#@! airport!) Registration Forms, Type #4, approved by the Chief of Police of Blahblahblah County and by the Bureau itself for each firearm in the case. (Always stress higher authority-- "federal", "state of..." "city of...") Here are Federally Approved Transportation Forms for these Firearms, Type 5320.20, approved for this journey as per the National Firearms Act Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms..." *thwap!* Make sure you *thwap* them down on the counter slowly enough so they see the forms but fast enough to keep adding to the pile without them pulling papers out to inspect them. "Here is a copy of my firearms ownership and carry permit as issued by the State of Blahblahblah..." (Bonus for multiple permits!) *thwap!* Here's the copy of my Type 03 Federally issued Firearms License (in other words, your C&R) as issued and approved by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms..." *thwap!* (Note that your guns being or not being C&R is irrelevant.) I've also whipped out papers for my LLC, formation papers, minutes from meetings, a travel itenary, copies of my driver's license "with special endorsements" (I can ride a motorcycle and need to wear glasses!)... Your goal is to pull out so much paperwork that the object of the document dump becomes overwhelmed and just passes you through the system.

It's yet to fail. Thankfully I've only needed to do it once for travel purposes. (Using it at Zoning & Planning in City Hall is another post for a different forum.)

Originally Posted By soowah: Nice post prebans! 10 out of 10

+1 Very informative. I like the "if they ask, it's a barrel extension"

Great info, Mike! (Especially the Document Dump.)

Unless you object, I'm tacking this thread.

nice post +1

Slug-O

great post, my own question is do silencers have to be checked? being its a NFA registered item, i read that they didn't even need a form to transport them across lines.

besides haveing to do the document dump again at the x-ray machine is there any reason you couldn't stick it in your pocket or lock it in your carry-on... or is that just extra trouble.

also if u had a firearm waiting at your destination say a friend with the same barrel threads as the silencer, could u travel without delcareing a firearm (not haveing one) but still transport the silencer... my guess is no it would be lots of trouble, id rather mail it to my destination.... but is it legal to do carry it like that.

Originally Posted By prebans: Originally Posted By MariusDeAdamas: great post, my own question is do silencers have to be checked? being its a NFA registered item, i read that they didn't even need a form to transport them across lines. besides haveing to do the document dump again at the x-ray machine is there any reason you couldn't stick it in your pocket or lock it in your carry-on... or is that just extra trouble. also if u had a firearm waiting at your destination say a friend with the same barrel threads as the silencer, could u travel without delcareing a firearm (not haveing one) but still transport the silencer... my guess is no it would be lots of trouble, id rather mail it to my destination.... but is it legal to do carry it like that. Speaking to your questions in order: 1. Anything to do with a firearm has to be checked. I personally was hoping that on e could carry on items like sears, RLLs, etc., but they are regulated as firearms. FAA says all firearms must be checked. Thus things like small tubes, tiny widgets, and broken hacksaw blades must still be checked. 2. Getting caught and having someone find out what you're carrying is a HUGE problem. Losing the item permanently will be the least of your worries for attempting to carry on anything to do with a firearm. (Incidentally, the FAA has banned the carrying on of ANY firearm parts. Even a wood buttstock by itself is verboten.) 3. I don't follow your third question. Please explain further. Thanks, Mike

Sorry, I probably shouldn't speak for another, but I believe this is what he's saying: Is it legal to carry just the suppressor on the airline, and not declare it, as the actual firearm it is to be attached to is waiting at the destination?

In view of your Answer 1.) above, I would say it is not legal to fail to declare a firearm part, and this is, at best, a "barrel extension."

As stated earlier, a document dump should not be done unless absolutely necessary. I used to subscribe to the carry your form 4 theory, but no longer. I got to thinking, this is a tax document and only two agencies can demand to see it so now I leave it at home and have the ATF on the speed dial of my cell phone. As a substitute, I carry a copy of the law with the pertinent portions highlighted and a copy of the airline’s guidelines for firearms. There is no need to spread the disinformation that a form 4 is a permit or a license or that it needs to be present with the NFA item or the person traveling with it. Of the numerous times I have flown with firearms, only once have I been asked to verify it is unloaded although I always offer. If for no other reason, how often do you get to jack the action of a firearm in the airport and get away with it? The federal regulations for firearms are surprisingly loose and leave a lot up to the airline. Another way to look at it is if you don't make a big deal out of it they likely won't either. If anyone gives you grief about flying with an NFA item or any other firearm I would request their supervisor and possibly a TSA officer as well. This will remove the burden of responsibility from the schmuck you are dealing with and/or add an intimidation factor plus it displays the need for continued training and if you have to be a part of it, you should do your part in ensuring it is complete and correct.

Also when flying with a firearm, I am careful to show up in time to check them at the desk and give sufficient time to clear with TSA, but not enough time for a TSA agent to play with them. They should only have time to be concerned with the law being followed and not what you are traveling with or what they wish they had or time for them to find a mirror to rehearse “Are you talkin to me” or “say hello to my little friend” etc. etc. You would have to be a complete moron to try to travel with illegal NFA and it should take a moron to catch you doing it.

Liberty is yours, you inherited it, don’t surrender it without a fight or squander it for a false sense of security.

Great post. Preban forgot to mention one thing. Its a small detail. If you are a LEO and want to fly armed, have your chief or sheriff complete a memo saying you watched the 15 minute FAA video, list your flight schedule for departing and returning; flight number, airline and such and both of you sign it. Check in at the desk with this letter and LEO identification and badge and you can fly with anything.

I always fly armed; for pleasure or work. I recently flew to Los Angeles with an MP5. It was my carry on. I met with the pilot, flight crew and air marshall. On my return trip I actually knew the air marshall when he worked for the sheriff's office.

I highly recommend that if you are a LEO you always fly armed. Being a SWAT guy, I know that if the plane is hijacked you wont be flying to long when the f-18's show up. Been to many seminars, you will be shot down!

Originally Posted By geerhed: Originally Posted By prebans: Originally Posted By MariusDeAdamas: great post, my own question is do silencers have to be checked? being its a NFA registered item, i read that they didn't even need a form to transport them across lines. besides haveing to do the document dump again at the x-ray machine is there any reason you couldn't stick it in your pocket or lock it in your carry-on... or is that just extra trouble. also if u had a firearm waiting at your destination say a friend with the same barrel threads as the silencer, could u travel without delcareing a firearm (not haveing one) but still transport the silencer... my guess is no it would be lots of trouble, id rather mail it to my destination.... but is it legal to do carry it like that. Speaking to your questions in order: 1. Anything to do with a firearm has to be checked. I personally was hoping that on e could carry on items like sears, RLLs, etc., but they are regulated as firearms. FAA says all firearms must be checked. Thus things like small tubes, tiny widgets, and broken hacksaw blades must still be checked. 2. Getting caught and having someone find out what you're carrying is a HUGE problem. Losing the item permanently will be the least of your worries for attempting to carry on anything to do with a firearm. (Incidentally, the FAA has banned the carrying on of ANY firearm parts. Even a wood buttstock by itself is verboten.) 3. I don't follow your third question. Please explain further. Thanks, Mike Sorry, I probably shouldn't speak for another, but I believe this is what he's saying: Is it legal to carry just the suppressor on the airline, and not declare it, as the actual firearm it is to be attached to is waiting at the destination? In view of your Answer 1.) above, I would say it is not legal to fail to declare a firearm part, and this is, at best, a "barrel extension."

Correct.

I'll also add that you generally don't get in trouble for OVER-declaring but you WILL get in trouble for UNDER-declaring. I traveled with two dozen parts kits once and declared each. They were NOT firearms under the law (no receivers), but imagine the hell if some moron at the X-Ray machine saw a bunch of "firearms in a broken down state."

If you're traveling with a can, just bring the gun that goes with it. You'll have to declare no matter what.

FWIW,

Mike

I fly with weapons all the time but not NFA. I believe the individual airlines' rules vary and those I fly prohibit guns OR GUN PARTS in carry on luggage. In other words put everything in your pelican or hardcase and check/declare.

If you did your paperwork to transport out of state, you are covered while going through a non nfa state.

I would shut the hell up and not talk about it.

That's correct, it goes in with the other luggage and comes out the same way when you arrive at your destination. Plane and simple. No pun intended.

This tag goes inside the case with the firearm(s)! It used to be law that these tags went on the outside of the case- they were known as "steal-me tags" within the airline industry for a reason! Should the ticketing agent attempt to place the tag on the outside, politely explain that they go inside. If they object, demand a supervisor. They are not only placing your firearms in jeopardy, but they're also violating federal law

While that is typically true (it is true for larger airlines) it doesnt apply to smaller regioanl airlines that have smaller planes.
I ran into this while flying home with a new gun. The company was Frontier Flying Service (not frontier airlines). They are a small (20 passanger airlcraft) company.
It is their policy that ALL firearms must have a large orange tag on the outside of the case that says firearm. This tag must be exposed at all times. Granted this is an airline that flies out of the main airline terminal, but you do not have to go through any airport screening to board the plane.
I argued with the lady, supervisior, head of flight ops, and TSA for nearly an hour about this. All gave me the same answer. Airlines this size do not fall under all federal/FAA restrictions and can set polocies as they see fit. Faced with the prospect of missing my flight or risking it, I chose to risk it only after getting a signed receipt for what was in my bag.
When I got home I called and verified that they can legally do this.
The supervisior told me it was for their safety because guns are dangoerous and they want their baggage guys taking extra precautions when handling guns. She did say that she cant remember a gun ever being stolen and they have done this for a long time.