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Posted: 6/12/2016 10:24:35 PM EDT
I was just gifted a family heirloom rifle (2 in fact, but the other was easy to ID). It is what appears to me as a Hawken rifle, with a trapdoor for caps in the right side of the stock. It is a half stock percussion cap rifle. The barrel is an extremely heavy octagon, stamped with "C.W. Murray / Hasting Cast Steel". Front sight is dovetailed in, rear sight is a buckhorn style adjustable (at least that's what I'd call it). Wood ramrod. I haven't taken measurements of the bore or length of the barrel yet (just received it last night). Single trigger. I will take more measurements, and additional pictures in the next couple days. I'm curious if anyone can help me ID the rifle so that I can get some history on it. Any help is appreciated.
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Posted: 6/12/2016 10:49:08 PM EDT
[#1]
can you post a pic of the entire rifle?
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Posted: 6/12/2016 11:19:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
can you post a pic of the entire rifle? I will, most likely tomorrow. Currently at work. |
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Posted: 6/13/2016 2:41:52 AM EDT
[#3]
There is a sgt. C.W. Murray that was in the civil war, fought at Potomac, and wrote a book (life and adventure of Sergt. C.W. Murray) I can't find anything on a manufacture of the rifle . Gut feeling is this was his rifle.
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Posted: 6/13/2016 4:44:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a sgt. C.W. Murray that was in the civil war, fought at Potomac, and wrote a book (life and adventure of Sergt. C.W. Murray) I can't find anything on a manufacture of the rifle . Gut feeling is this was his rifle. So far the only things I've been able to remotely link, and I could be completely wrong, are that J.P. Murray did flintlock to percussion conversions on rifles around 1861, and that C. W. may have been an inspector/proofer. I haven't found a single thing regarding the Hasting Cast Steel stamping. |
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Posted: 6/13/2016 8:07:29 AM EDT
[#5]
https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/JamesKelly27/gun-metalsfeb2014
Remington was the provider of many "cast steel" barrels |
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Posted: 6/13/2016 6:44:11 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 6/14/2016 3:58:36 PM EDT
[#7]
Ohmigawd! I'd contact the Museum of the Fur Trade.
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Posted: 6/17/2016 12:22:28 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ohmigawd! I'd contact the Museum of the Fur Trade. sent them an email, no word back yet |
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Posted: 6/17/2016 11:18:24 PM EDT
[#9]
That mark on the barrel looks like S W Murray to me.
A little googling found an S W Murray from Milton, PA with several patents for cast steel railroad parts in the 1870's. Also found a reference to a Hastings (note the additional S on the end, so not spelled the same) Steel Company, but they were closer to Pittsburg. May be the same guy. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 8:29:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sent them an email, no word back yet Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ohmigawd! I'd contact the Museum of the Fur Trade. sent them an email, no word back yet Might as well send an email to Sarah at Muzzle Blasts. She was curator at the Smithsonian at the time Mel Gibson's The Patriot was filmed. |
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Posted: 7/26/2016 7:27:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Bore @ muzzle measured .370 on the lands, .380 in the grooves.
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Posted: 8/3/2016 8:13:40 PM EDT
[#12]
That trigger guard is the BOMB!
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Posted: 8/8/2016 9:35:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Beauty. Looks like a late percussion period rifle. An old black powder gunsmith told me the most popular bore size on the frontier was .380.
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Posted: 8/13/2016 3:57:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That mark on the barrel looks like S W Murray to me. A little googling found an S W Murray from Milton, PA with several patents for cast steel railroad parts in the 1870's. Also found a reference to a Hastings (note the additional S on the end, so not spelled the same) Steel Company, but they were closer to Pittsburg. May be the same guy. Seems to make some sense.. The pattern and trigger guard kinda remind me of an Ohio rifle |
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Posted: 8/21/2016 5:27:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Unless it's signed, it's hard to know where a piece was assembled. The smiths of the olde recycled parts and saved $$$ that way. Parts could also be bought pre-made too.
I examined one muzzle loader that was marked "English made rifle." Well, the lock was off a Civil War P53 Enfield, but that was the only thing English about it. It had a hand forged crescent shaped buttplate, iron trigger guard and a Pennsylvania made barrel (Penne - a barrel maker in PA). From the grease hole in the stock, I narrowed it down to one of two Gillespie brothers in jaw-jah. A descendant confirmed it by adding a detail which I didn't tell him. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:29:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless it's signed, it's hard to know where a piece was assembled. The smiths of the olde recycled parts and saved $$$ that way. Parts could also be bought pre-made too. I examined one muzzle loader that was marked "English made rifle." Well, the lock was off a Civil War P53 Enfield, but that was the only thing English about it. It had a hand forged crescent shaped buttplate, iron trigger guard and a Pennsylvania made barrel (Penne - a barrel maker in PA). From the grease hole in the stock, I narrowed it down to one of two Gillespie brothers in jaw-jah. A descendant confirmed it by adding a detail which I didn't tell him. The only story I have so far is that it's remained in the family from my 3rd great grandfather who was from central Michigan (Edmore area), and that the rifle was supposedly used in the war. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:41:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only story I have so far is that it's remained in the family from my 3rd great grandfather who was from central Michigan (Edmore area), and that the rifle was supposedly used in the war. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unless it's signed, it's hard to know where a piece was assembled. The smiths of the olde recycled parts and saved $$$ that way. Parts could also be bought pre-made too. I examined one muzzle loader that was marked "English made rifle." Well, the lock was off a Civil War P53 Enfield, but that was the only thing English about it. It had a hand forged crescent shaped buttplate, iron trigger guard and a Pennsylvania made barrel (Penne - a barrel maker in PA). From the grease hole in the stock, I narrowed it down to one of two Gillespie brothers in jaw-jah. A descendant confirmed it by adding a detail which I didn't tell him. The only story I have so far is that it's remained in the family from my 3rd great grandfather who was from central Michigan (Edmore area), and that the rifle was supposedly used in the war. It could be pre-civil war era, but is generally consistent with most rifles made in the last third of the 1800's, just going by design only. I'd say it's consistent also with guns made in Ohio or Michigan during that period. I'm not an expert on those types of guns, but I've seen a lot of them. It's not going to be particularly valuable, unless it's from some known maker or for a contract for indians or something. I'll bet you could still shoot that rifle. My dad has an old rifle belonging to my great grandfather and it has a name. He called it "Brenel Gravy". 
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Posted: 9/18/2016 10:26:45 PM EDT
[#18]
An inquiry in the antique rifles forum at www.americanlongrifles.com will turn up an answer about the rifle's origin. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=3.0
I recommend joining the forum, then hosting the photos somewhere besides AR15.com so the site owner doesn't have a stroke, despite the relevant content. Never mind, I see you are using photobucket. That's a neat gun that ought to be easy to identify from the signature, distinctive side plate, cap box, and long tang. I wouldn't look for rabbit holes for Hasting Cast Steel, I think think they are unrelated stamps. |
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Posted: 9/19/2016 6:38:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An inquiry in the antique rifles forum at www.americanlongrifles.com will turn up an answer about the rifle's origin. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=3.0 I recommend joining the forum, then hosting the photos somewhere besides AR15.com so the site owner doesn't have a stroke, despite the relevant content. Never mind, I see you are using photobucket. That's a neat gun that ought to be easy to identify from the signature, distinctive side plate, cap box, and long tang. I wouldn't look for rabbit holes for Hasting Cast Steel, I think think they are unrelated stamps. Thank you, I will definitely check into this. |
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Posted: 9/19/2016 8:46:39 PM EDT
[#20]
The brass trigger and shape of the trigger guard, patch box, and stock are characteristics of late period percussion New York rifles. I have a very similar rifle built by Morgan James of Utica, NY. Some suggest the California rifles of this period look similar.
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Posted: 9/19/2016 10:00:32 PM EDT
[#21]
The extra hole in the tang confirms my suspicion that this gun was built for shooting targets, the hole is for an aperture sight on a post. The turned muzzle is for a false muzzle.
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Posted: 9/20/2016 10:48:01 AM EDT
[#22]
You may want to contact James Gordon of Glorietta, New Mexico.
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