I know you aren't supposed to do it.  

That being said, has anyone tried reduced loads or heard of anyone trying it and writing about it?

I know Savage makes a smokeless powder muzzleloader, but how is it any different from any other modern ML?  The Savage uses a 209 primer, so it can't be a worry that you will get flash out of the primer hole.

Just curious if anyone has any insight.

Thanks

Black powder is explosive while modern smokeless powder is not. I don't know what kind of pressures you'd achieve in a normal black powder muzzleloader, but two potential points of issue are you'd either not achieve enough pressure for the smokeless powder to burn well and it would squib, or you would get enough pressure but it'd be far greater than black powder and you'd get a kaboom.

Just theory though, I'm not a black powder guy and haven't actually tried what you're asking about.

A chance for a blown up muzzle loader!

Thanks for the reply.

With all of the different powders out there you can achieve all kinds of burn rates and pressure spikes.  I would think the same powders that work in the Savage would work in almost any modern muzzleloader.

I won't try it til someone else does.

It won't be me.  



I own a Shiloh Sharps BPCR (Black powder cartridge rife) which is considerably stronger than most if not all muzzleloaders, and a Lyman GPR (great plains rifle) muzzloader.

Neither one will ever see smokeless, I won't even use pyrodex pellets.

If you want more velocity which is the only reason I can think of to use smokeless instead of BP, stick with a center fire rifle.

What I remember is the two most common reason muzzleloaders are blown up, smokeless powder or a barrel obstruction.



 

google image search for your subject line NSFW (gore)

Cleaning would be the only reason for me.  Velocity, not so much.

Dont do it.   If you want to muzzle load with smokeless,  get a rifle that is made to do it.

What kind of Knucklehead would even consider smokeless in a BP firearm?

I used to work with a guy who used duplex loads, part BP, part smokeless, in his muzzle loader. I thought he was crazy.

5744 is commonly used in black powder cartridge guns.  There was a gun that blew up at the 2015 Quigely Match this year.  Second known case of a gun blowing up with 5744....and these are guys who know what they are doing, not just guessing about what should work.    http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1434466391/14

Ruling out manufacturing defects, if they're blowing their guns up, it would seem they don't know what they're doing.


Cpt. Redleg

in the immortal words of Sheriff Buford T Justice of Texas..

"you can think about it, but don't do it..."

People are theorizing that there may be pressure spikes with 5744 that are fine in smokeless guns, but perhaps not with blackpowder only guns.

There is a reason guns were redesigned for the pressure curves of smokeless powder.

Those reasons were learned the hard way.

If you really feel like re-learning them yourself...  livestream that shit, yo.

Don't do it.  It's that simple.

I've seen it done twice (after the fact, and alcohol was involved) and it resulted in catastrophic failure of the barrel both times.  Once it involved a trip to the ER and the other time it fortunately did not, but in both cases the gun was ruined.

The angel that watches over children, drunks, retards, morons and liberals must have been working overtime with that guy.

Do not spit in darwins face




If you do, get it on video

I know someone who does do it.  I don't recall what powder or the drams he uses in his damascus barrel shotguns.  Personally I wouldn't try it.

Black powder produces a maximum chamber pressure around 25,000 psi. Most smokeless rifle cartridges produce twice that or more. Not a good idea to interchange the two.

A pox on all those at Savage who created and introduced this abomination of a rifle.

The Savage is made expressly for smokeless powder use too, but only a few very specific powders.
It has clouded the issue and probably been responsible for a slew of blown or damaged muzzleloaders NOT designed for smokeless powder.

Standard black powder guns have ignition systems, breeches, breechplugs, etc. that are not meant to contain the higher pressures of smokeless powder.
One of the weakest links in this chain is the ignition system. High pressure gases of a black powder overload or smokeless powder load (even a week one) will spurt back out the tiny hole of the nipple, blowing gases into the shooter's face.
Often, the thickness of the steel walls on the breech simply aren't thick enough to contain the higher pressure.
Higher pressures from smokeless powder can strain the threads on the breechplug, perhaps even shear them and cause it to fly backwards like a projectile -- into the shooter's chest or shoulder.

Upon ignition, the burning characteristics of black powder (and black powder substitutes) are significantly different from smokeless powder. Black powder tends to give a "slow push" when seen on a pressure curve. Pressure builds relatively gradually. Smokeless powder gives a much sharper jump upon first ignition.

Never, EVER use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader not designed for it -- which pretty much means the Savage is the only exception. May its creators all get a deep cancer.

Yeah, your old smokepole may propel a ball with smokeless powder and exhbit no damage for the first or even the 12th shot, but you can bet that the steel is being seriously strained with each shot. Eventually, it may let go -- into your face.
Smokeless powder generates much higher pressures. Plain and simple.
Don't put it in any gun originally designed for black powder, no matter what old book or some know-nothing tells you.

it will blow up in your face.

I have one of those abominations of a rifle, Savage was thinking outside the box on this one.  For me it's a very nice shooter, easy to maintain and won't ever have to worry about being traded off.  

But anyone playing with smokeless in any other BP firearm needs to see a doctor to get their head checked.

Why would anyone bother?   If you have a modern inline muzzleloader (that seals up the combustion) and are using a sabot/bullet combination that fit the bore tight and proper, you can use Blackhorn 209.   Its going to give nearly the same velocity as smokeless powder but is black powder safe.

Why take a risk when you have an alternative that is safe and works great...

2200 FPS with a 250gr 45cal bullet in a black 50cal sabot, and 120grains by volume of BH209 is typical...   thats the same bullet I shoot out of my 450 bushmaster, and at more or less the same velocity...  but I do it with blackhorn 209 in my 50 cal muzzle loader

Great idea!  I especially liked the hand pictures, missing part of a thumb!

I think I will avoid smokeless powder!

Bill

One thing I can think of off the bat: You need to find a way to fix the volume of the chamber. In a muzzleloader you ram the bullet right up to the powder, creating a compressed load every time which meant the powder will burn with max pressure. This is obviously catastrophic. At least you will need a lip of some kind inside the chamber to stop the bullet from going further as you ram it in, meaning you will have a set chamber volume. Then you can possibly use software like Quickshot to predict a safe pressure level (no more than 20,000psi). This means using shotgun powder with shotgun level energies and pressure.

I don't doubt a system could be designed where smokeless powder can be safely used. I just don't understand why nobody would do it.