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Posted: 4/30/2015 9:19:25 PM EDT
Anybody got a Remington 700ML or 700MLS?  I got one years ago and tried Canadian 209 conversion... too much blow back.

Then I found this Remington 700ML/MLS 209 primer conversion kit available from Badger Ridge Industries





It will turn your 700ML into a new rifle...   I shoot BH209 in my 700 MLS now and its a dream.  No blow back...  no priming tools...  simply great rifle now with great powder!

Hope it helps!
Link Posted: 5/6/2015 5:07:08 PM EDT
[#1]
10 years too late.
I still might get the kit just to have around.
Link Posted: 5/28/2015 9:12:46 PM EDT
[#2]
If you still got the rifle, its not too late!
Link Posted: 5/28/2015 9:14:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 6/3/2015 10:15:01 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
I've got the other conversion, but I've never noticed much blowback.
View Quote


Really?  I blew primers and coated my scope with powder fouling until I got the Badger Ridge 209 Conversion.   Love shooing Blackhorn 209 now too!

Hey they made a YouTube video of it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELohSHuJkGA
Link Posted: 6/4/2015 6:21:38 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 7/1/2015 11:44:30 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
My scope does get residue but I've never found it excessive enough to bother with.   Did you use the plastic cover on the end of the bolt?

I do see an advantage of slipping the primer onto the bolt instead of inside the breech.
View Quote


I used the plastic cover before I found the Badger Ridge 209 conversion.   The manual says you shouldn't use it (the weather shroud) with 209 primers... and it also focused the blow back into the bolt body as well.    I got tired of the blow back, and blowing 209 primers apart.   Once I converted with the Bager Ridge system, the breech sealed the blow back in (and the weather out).   No problems, and I get to use Blackhorn 209...   its like shooting a single shot 50 cal center-fire now.   The 209's come out without any tools.   Its great.

Link Posted: 10/18/2015 12:15:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Thread needs a bump
Link Posted: 10/21/2015 1:40:01 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm looking at getting the newer 700 Ultimate ML, but I see the older models used for much less.  I'm a lefty so I'd get more blow back than a right handed shooter.  This conversion makes that much of a difference?  

BP season here in MI ties in with our archery,  rifle and late antler less, so I could hunt 1 Oct - 1 Jan if I got a ML.  I posted in the BP/ML subform asking about Knight or M700 ML's and it has been soundly ignored.  Not the ideal website, I guess, but still.  

Seems like this conversion would have to help accuracy as well.
Link Posted: 10/22/2015 5:57:31 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
I'm looking at getting the newer 700 Ultimate ML, but I see the older models used for much less.  I'm a lefty so I'd get more blow back than a right handed shooter.  This conversion makes that much of a difference?  

BP season here in MI ties in with our archery,  rifle and late antler less, so I could hunt 1 Oct - 1 Jan if I got a ML.  I posted in the BP/ML subform asking about Knight or M700 ML's and it has been soundly ignored.  Not the ideal website, I guess, but still.  

Seems like this conversion would have to help accuracy as well.
View Quote


Try your ML questions at FrontierMuzzleoading.com (smaller site, fairly slow but some good information) or ModernMuzzleloader.com (bigger site, more like the Arfcom of ML'ers).
Link Posted: 11/23/2015 6:24:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm looking at getting the newer 700 Ultimate ML, but I see the older models used for much less.  I'm a lefty so I'd get more blow back than a right handed shooter.  This conversion makes that much of a difference?  

BP season here in MI ties in with our archery,  rifle and late antler less, so I could hunt 1 Oct - 1 Jan if I got a ML.  I posted in the BP/ML subform asking about Knight or M700 ML's and it has been soundly ignored.  Not the ideal website, I guess, but still.  

Seems like this conversion would have to help accuracy as well.
View Quote



The conversion will make a world of difference for you as a left hander.   And yes it does tend to increase accuracy... especially being able to use Blackhorn 209.

And while the 700 ultimate can use more BH209 than the converted 700ML so a true comparision isn't possible.   The 700ML can use 120 grains by volume of BH209 which yields about 2100FPS with 250gr bullets...  no too shabby.
Link Posted: 11/28/2015 9:14:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Interesting thread. I bought a 700ML long ago when they first came out. I got a 209 conversion kit but I can not remember who made it. I think I got it through cabela's?
Funny thing is, I installed the kit and have never shot it since then, so I have no idea if it works or not. I greased up my TC Hawken and the 700ML and they've been sitting in the safe for many years now.
I once took it to a few local gunshops to sell and the highest offer I had on it was $150, and that included the 2x7 scope on it. I just kept it and put it back in the safe. I never did kill anything with it like my Hawken has. I stopped hunting long ago for a number of reasons. Single parenthood, kids were into all sorts of activities, worked 2 jobs, lost all my local hunting spots to development etc. Time was something I had very little of for many years. Even sold my Harley which got a whooping 200 miles on it the last 4 years I had it.
Link Posted: 12/24/2015 11:50:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Interesting thread, indeed. I thought about doing this conversion a while back, when caps were getting hard to find for a while. Turned out the primers were even harder to find.....

I've shot both versions, and frankly, if you're doing it right, the musket caps (#11s) are fine, esp. when you use the weather cover. The 209 version, a hotter blast, is designed for people who don't clean their guns very much, relying on the extra blast created by the shotgun primer to cut through the crud and rust in a lot of 700MLs I encounter.

The 700ML is a great little gun, but it was designed by and for people who understand and recommend traditional muzzleloader care for it. Unfortunately, many of their customers don't.

This means the bore and parts should be cleaned with soap and hot water and immediately swabbed free of any moisture or crud. It also means natural lubes like Bore Butter and the like. Not petroleum distillates. You have to clean and lube them differently from a regular modern gun. You DON'T use Hoppe's or the usual modern gun oil in a 700ML, since that will eventually create rust in the barrel or the action when encountering uncleaned BP residue. If you keep the gun properly cleaned and lubed, it will go off, no problem, with #11 primers, even in driving rain.

Face it, most people who bought these misunderstood and misused guns weren't traditional BP enthusiasts, they were hunters- many of whom aren't even gun enthusiasts, just people using tools, who wanted to get an extra week of hunting in during muzzleloader season. I see many of these guns which stand in a corner, loaded all year until the following hunting season, and then the guys can't figure out why they don't work when they try to shoot them again after a whole year loaded, uncleaned, and now corroded. And then they're upset because their guns don't work. Oh well.
Link Posted: 1/5/2016 8:09:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Interesting thread, indeed. I thought about doing this conversion a while back, when caps were getting hard to find for a while. Turned out the primers were even harder to find.....

I've shot both versions, and frankly, if you're doing it right, the musket caps (#11s) are fine, esp. when you use the weather cover. The 209 version, a hotter blast, is designed for people who don't clean their guns very much, relying on the extra blast created by the shotgun primer to cut through the crud and rust in a lot of 700MLs I encounter.

The 700ML is a great little gun, but it was designed by and for people who understand and recommend traditional muzzleloader care for it. Unfortunately, many of their customers don't.

This means the bore and parts should be cleaned with soap and hot water and immediately swabbed free of any moisture or crud. It also means natural lubes like Bore Butter and the like. Not petroleum distillates. You have to clean and lube them differently from a regular modern gun. You DON'T use Hoppe's or the usual modern gun oil in a 700ML, since that will eventually create rust in the barrel or the action when encountering uncleaned BP residue. If you keep the gun properly cleaned and lubed, it will go off, no problem, with #11 primers, even in driving rain.

Face it, most people who bought these misunderstood and misused guns weren't traditional BP enthusiasts, they were hunters- many of whom aren't even gun enthusiasts, just people using tools, who wanted to get an extra week of hunting in during muzzleloader season. I see many of these guns which stand in a corner, loaded all year until the following hunting season, and then the guys can't figure out why they don't work when they try to shoot them again after a whole year loaded, uncleaned, and now corroded. And then they're upset because their guns don't work. Oh well.
View Quote


What you put above is true... for the non Badger Ridge converted rifle...



For a Badger Ridge converted rifle, its pretty much a different beast...   The 209 primer seals the breech up completely, so you don't have to strip the rifle down and clean it deeply... and because its sealed, you can use blackhorn 209 powder that does clean up with regular gun cleaning products... so yes, on an inline muzzle loader using Blackhorn209 you do use Hoppes, or regular gun cleaning products!...

And because like you say most of us are just hunters using tools, haveing a better tool is good... and the Badger Ridge conversion makes the 700ML a much better tool...   on par with the 700 ultimate but a much cheaper price... especially if you have a 700 ML sitting in the gun cabinet collecting dust...


Link Posted: 1/6/2016 6:53:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 1/24/2016 1:17:47 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Took my old 700ML out today.  This was two at 100 yards.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/arfcomaje/Guns/IMG_20160106_171247446_zpswrr00msn.jpg

Hopefully I can finally nail a deer with it this year.
View Quote


Looks like dead dear to me...
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 8:40:05 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


Looks like dead dear to me...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Took my old 700ML out today.  This was two at 100 yards.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/arfcomaje/Guns/IMG_20160106_171247446_zpswrr00msn.jpg

Hopefully I can finally nail a deer with it this year.


Looks like dead dear to me...


Keepen it alive
Link Posted: 6/16/2016 5:46:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Took my old 700ML out today.  This was two at 100 yards.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/arfcomaje/Guns/IMG_20160106_171247446_zpswrr00msn.jpg

Hopefully I can finally nail a deer with it this year.
View Quote


Don't want to let this one die
Link Posted: 7/10/2016 1:02:32 AM EDT
[#18]
save yourself, buy a Knight Disc Extreme.....

I did and there are 2 - 700ML's sitting in corners at my workshop. there are 2 Knight Disc Extreme's that I take shooting and hunting.

YMMV
Link Posted: 7/12/2016 9:14:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
save yourself, buy a Knight Disc Extreme.....

I did and there are 2 - 700ML's sitting in corners at my workshop. there are 2 Knight Disc Extreme's that I take shooting and hunting.

YMMV
View Quote



A knight disc extreme costs 3 to 4 times what a used Rem 700ML does...  even with conversion kit, the knight disc exreme is over double what a converted 700ML costs... and it doesn't take standard 700 short action mounts, accessories, and stocks....    

How does the knight shoot with blackhorn 209?
Link Posted: 8/19/2016 6:35:28 PM EDT
[#20]
crickets about the knight?
Link Posted: 8/25/2016 12:25:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



A knight disc extreme costs 3 to 4 times what a used Rem 700ML does...  even with conversion kit, the knight disc exreme is over double what a converted 700ML costs... and it doesn't take standard 700 short action mounts, accessories, and stocks....    

How does the knight shoot with blackhorn 209?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
save yourself, buy a Knight Disc Extreme.....

I did and there are 2 - 700ML's sitting in corners at my workshop. there are 2 Knight Disc Extreme's that I take shooting and hunting.

YMMV



A knight disc extreme costs 3 to 4 times what a used Rem 700ML does...  even with conversion kit, the knight disc exreme is over double what a converted 700ML costs... and it doesn't take standard 700 short action mounts, accessories, and stocks....    

How does the knight shoot with blackhorn 209?


I just cruised in the tech forums tonight.

I have not shot Blackhorn in any of my BP rifles. I shoot standard Goex FF in my side locks and shoot 777 powder in all of the inlines ( 2 different knight models, the 700, the T/C and the New England). the Blackhorn issue is a non issue to me, as it is to 90% of the BP community. I have no idea why you mention scope mounts, accessories and stocks since those are by and large moot points and a non issue as well. once you rig them up, you really shouldn't have to change anything for good. Midway shipped by Leupold QR mounts and bases to my house in a couple of days. its not like it takes anything special. Remington 521 mounts I believe. I run the QR or Warne Detachable mounts on everything I can and have backup scopes that have been sighted in ready to pop on in an emergency with minor gunsmithing at the cabin.

in fact, this weekend my son sighted in his "new to him" used Disc Extreme in roughly 95% that he got for $350 on Gunbroker. as usual once topped with a Vortex it was perfect running with 270 gr Powerbelt Platinums.

I'm going to try and hit the range again this weekend to see how the New England works out. I've never shot one and lucked unto it. I found a machine shop making the breech plug O ring set up that alleviates the need for the primer holder. My BP collection hasn't stopped growing since 1982.

the only one that never gets shot or hunted with is the 700ML even with the 209 conversion. once you get an action failure with a 180 class whitetail at less than 10 yards, it leaves you jaded. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. I have 140, 150, 160, and 170 class deer on my wall. that 180 was an unbelievable sight. having owned a few 700 rifles I was sorely disappointed in what Remington sold the public as a 700ML in terms of long lasting quality.

I wish anyone who buys them, the best- I really do.
but I think there are better options.
Link Posted: 9/9/2016 5:46:37 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:

.... snipped .....
the only one that never gets shot or hunted with is the 700ML even with the 209 conversion. once you get an action failure with a 180 class whitetail at less than 10 yards, it leaves you jaded. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. I have 140, 150, 160, and 170 class deer on my wall. that 180 was an unbelievable sight. having owned a few 700 rifles I was sorely disappointed in what Remington sold the public as a 700ML in terms of long lasting quality.

I wish anyone who buys them, the best- I really do.
but I think there are better options.
View Quote



I agree that the 700 sucked as delivered from Remington.  What I'm saying is this conversion turns the tables on that...   fixes the reliablity and blow back.   Now my rifle is super reliable, fastest velocities with BH209...  sealed breech means no fouling of the action, nor burning of the scope.

because the original design sucked so bad you can pick the 700ML up cheap... just bought another yesterday for less than $240, 150 dollar conversion and I've got  an awesome rifle for my boy, nearly identical to dads deer hammer, for under $400.   And it works just like any other Remington 700... same safety, stock, trigger, mounts, scope....  its all the same.  And they shoot great with the badger ridge conversion.
Link Posted: 10/7/2016 4:00:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Don't know how I found this post, but glad I did. I have a 700 ML that I've yet to shoot because I know nothing about BP shooting. So, a few questions- if I use pyrodex or 777 pellets instead of powder, can I still use #11 caps? Both websites say I need 209 primers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means if I use #11 caps, its granular powder only, and if I want to use pellets I have to use 209 primers, which means I must do the conversion.
As for cleaning- the owner's manual says to use all natural bore cleaner, wonder lube paste, and remoil. All are Remington products that I cannot find on their website. So what products do I use to clean the bore and to lubricate? I understand the soap and water cleaning, but I'm thinking about when I go on a weekend hunt and I need to do a quick clean. Do I lube the barrel for storage or leave it dry?
Should the barrel be lubed or dry when I load it? I'm sure there are other questions But I can only absorb so much info at 1 time.
Link Posted: 10/11/2016 8:27:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Don't know how I found this post, but glad I did. I have a 700 ML that I've yet to shoot because I know nothing about BP shooting. So, a few questions- if I use pyrodex or 777 pellets instead of powder, can I still use #11 caps? Both websites say I need 209 primers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means if I use #11 caps, its granular powder only, and if I want to use pellets I have to use 209 primers, which means I must do the conversion.
As for cleaning- the owner's manual says to use all natural bore cleaner, wonder lube paste, and remoil. All are Remington products that I cannot find on their website. So what products do I use to clean the bore and to lubricate? I understand the soap and water cleaning, but I'm thinking about when I go on a weekend hunt and I need to do a quick clean. Do I lube the barrel for storage or leave it dry?
Should the barrel be lubed or dry when I load it? I'm sure there are other questions But I can only absorb so much info at 1 time.
View Quote


Ok...   the powder determines what sort of ignition is required.   In general the least "hot" are No 11 caps, followed by Musket Caps, then reduced power 209 primers (aka 209 primers that say for black powder or other brand name like Triple Se7en etc), then the most hot are full powered 209 primers (standard 209's made for shotgun shells).

Also the more heat the more tolerant of mistakes, bad weather, cold, etc...  

The powder used also dictates the solvent used...  Black powder, Pyrodex, and Triple Se7en all require organic cleaners... Ie soap and water, and should also  be used with organic lubes (ie bore butter, but in the old days lard or vegetable shortening were used).    For the breech plug you probably want to use some sort of anti sieze paste with any powder.    The original system is ok with the powders above, but you'll get blow back all over you, the inside of the bolt, and any optics...   and blow back is corrosive so you have to clean after each time the rifle is shot... and with the old system that means you have to strip and clean the bolt as well.

If you want to use normal gun cleaning products, then you need to shoot BlackHorn209.   Blackhorn209 uses regular nitro cellulose chemistry, so it cleans up and is compatible with all normal center fire gun cleaning products.   But black horn 209 requires full powered 209 primers and must be sealed up to catch and  burn right... which is why I converted to the kit that this thread is about found at: www.badgerridgeind.com   Its a totally different ignition and breech plug set up from the one the rifle came with.  Blackhorn works best with sabots as well.   The guy at Badger Ridge has written a lot on his blogabout this stuff.

His kit works great with all the powders, seals in the blow back, and you don't have to strip the bolt anymore, but you still need to clean the breech plug and the barrel.

You should leave any muzzle loader cleaned, barrel coated with some sort of lube/protectant, and if its got a breech plug, you shouldn't store the rifle with the breech plug installed.    Then before you go to load it run a clean dry patch through to get the lubricants and dust out.

Link Posted: 10/27/2016 1:38:41 PM EDT
[#25]
This is an interesting technical upgrade to what seems to be a dead end product from Remington.  I believe their new 700 ultimate ML is a completely different beast than the older 700ML.

I've been getting more involved in shooting muzzleloaders in the past year, and just picked up my first inline.  It seems current production inlines are mostly split between break actions from CVA/Traditions or inline rifles from Knight.  I opted for a CVA.

If I could find an old 700 ML at a discount I'd probably pick it up just to try it out, and maybe upgrade with the Badger Ridge kit.  I actually checked on GunBroker, and the problem I see is the prices for used 700 ML rifles that have corrosion and pitting is as much (or more) than a new CVA or barely used Knight.  

I wonder if these old 700ML are being used as the foundation for custom ML rifles, or maybe smokeless conversions?  Tough to spend that kind of cash for something that's going to need additional investment to make it as functional as new production.
Link Posted: 11/2/2016 10:15:11 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is an interesting technical upgrade to what seems to be a dead end product from Remington.  I believe their new 700 ultimate ML is a completely different beast than the older 700ML.

I've been getting more involved in shooting muzzleloaders in the past year, and just picked up my first inline.  It seems current production inlines are mostly split between break actions from CVA/Traditions or inline rifles from Knight.  I opted for a CVA.

If I could find an old 700 ML at a discount I'd probably pick it up just to try it out, and maybe upgrade with the Badger Ridge kit.  I actually checked on GunBroker, and the problem I see is the prices for used 700 ML rifles that have corrosion and pitting is as much (or more) than a new CVA or barely used Knight.  

I wonder if these old 700ML are being used as the foundation for custom ML rifles, or maybe smokeless conversions?  Tough to spend that kind of cash for something that's going to need additional investment to make it as functional as new production.
View Quote


You hit the nail on the head:  the original 700 ML rifles are frequently used as donors for other projects, such as smokeless conversions.  FYI A different version of the Badger Ridge conversion you see on their website is used to make the smokeless mod.   You can email the guy  at badger ridge if you want mess with smokeless but that is not really for most folks who just want a good rifle to hunt with at most distances...  and factor in that if you have a good rifle with a good barrel you can get nearly the same performance as a smokeless conversion simply using the standard Badger Ridge "smoker" conversion and  BH209.   And its much cheaper and simple than messing with a smokeless conversion.   Basically the same bang for a lot less bucks.
Link Posted: 11/27/2016 7:16:29 PM EDT
[#27]


Just saw this gif on the badger ridge website... figured it would help make the argument.
Link Posted: 12/29/2016 8:23:56 AM EDT
[#28]
cant let the thread die...yet...
Link Posted: 2/2/2017 6:18:07 PM EDT
[#29]
bumping up.
Link Posted: 5/5/2017 12:57:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Bump
Link Posted: 6/28/2017 10:12:38 PM EDT
[#31]
I wish the kit cost a lot less and I'd get one. My 700ML was my first gun and it just sits now. Hasn't been shot in several years since i got an omega.
Link Posted: 7/2/2017 8:46:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Made in USA... stainless steel... works great...  quality costs some times.
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