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Posted: 2/11/2017 1:39:55 AM EDT
Where is the best place to learn about Japanese rifles? I've never really had an interest in them before, but they seem to be popping up alot lately at the stores I'm visiting.

Saw two today, one for $250 plus tax and the other for $299 plus tax. Neither had number matching bolts, and both had good bores. After that, I had no clue what to look for as to figure out which model was which.

I'd like to eventually add one to the fold, just don't want to get house and know what I'm looking at
Link Posted: 2/11/2017 1:58:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Forgotten weapons on YouTube and his blog.  That guy loves Jap rifles and other Jap weapons.  He knows his stuff.
Link Posted: 2/11/2017 12:27:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Where is the best place to learn about Japanese rifles? I've never really had an interest in them before, but they seem to be popping up alot lately at the stores I'm visiting.

Saw two today, one for $250 plus tax and the other for $299 plus tax. Neither had number matching bolts, and both had good bores. After that, I had no clue what to look for as to figure out which model was which.

I'd like to eventually add one to the fold, just don't want to get house and know what I'm looking at
View Quote


Depends on whether they were Type 99's, or Type 38's....38's were matched by assembly number, no way to tell usually if they are matched unless you take the action out of the stock...

As for books....start here...

https://www.amazon.com/Military-Rifles-Japan-Fred-Honeycutt/dp/0962320870?tag=vglnk-c102-20

This one is a good overview too, and typically a lot cheaper...

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Rifles-World-War-II/dp/1880677113/ref=pd_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SZA1E5PD5H0GHC48PF7S&tag=vglnk-c102-20

Good reference books are always your best bet...
Link Posted: 2/11/2017 2:03:26 PM EDT
[#3]
The store had both marked as type 99
Link Posted: 2/11/2017 6:53:34 PM EDT
[#4]
I like Honeycutt's book, though McCollum's is pretty good as well.  All of my knowledge is with the 99s.  Early Type 99s had chrome lined barrels, all of them had polygonal rifling IIRC.  As for very general stuff prices go up for guns with matched bolts, intact mums, complete parts, and staked screws.  If you get one with all the screws still staked on the trigger guard, bands, leave it alone as it's worth more intact.  Also note that not all of them had monopods, dust covers, or AA sights, only the earliest ones, so don't pass one by just because it is missing those features, this could even change within series.

Note that a lot of people have started "restoring" these as prices have gone up, typically new repro monopods and dust covers are pretty easy to spot as the blue and patina won't match, but it has lead to a lot of rifles being converted to a state other than what they were originally issued in.  For instance mine has the lug for a monopod but they stopped installing them before mine was made, so it is correct for it to be "missing".  The fast way to IDs 99s versus 38s is 99s will have the characters horizontal on the top of the receiver ring with one gas vent hole, 38s will be vertical with two gas vents.  

7.7x58 is still made, but Grafs/Hornady only seems to do one batch a year.  When they do though you can sometimes even find it in Cabelas.  PCI will do a batch or two a year as well.  Only bummer is despite this I've yet to had luck finding bulk brass, it always shows sold out except for what little bit Liberty Tree has.  Not sure on how easy 6.5 is to get.  Mine is a real nice shooter that can get around 2-3" if I do my part, which if that is what you want I'd stick to an earlier gun that still has adjustable sights and ideally the chrome lined barrel.  Not to say later guns won't shoot well too but you have a better chance of getting a good one that is close to spec with something earlier and chrome lined.
Link Posted: 2/12/2017 10:38:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 2/12/2017 4:43:48 PM EDT
[#6]
7.7 Jap and 6.5 Jap are both easy shooting rounds.  The 7.7 reminds me of the 303 British.
Link Posted: 2/12/2017 7:30:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
7.7 Jap and 6.5 Jap are both easy shooting rounds.  The 7.7 reminds me of the 303 British.
View Quote


7.7 was produced in 3 flavors....7.7, 7.7 semi-rimmed, and 7.7 rimmed...

Think of the logistical mess of that...

But 7.7 rimmed is pretty much an exact copy of the .303 Brit...
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 5:43:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


7.7 was produced in 3 flavors....7.7, 7.7 semi-rimmed, and 7.7 rimmed...

Think of the logistical mess of that...

But 7.7 rimmed is pretty much an exact copy of the .303 Brit...
View Quote


Imperial Japan had two 7.7 mm Type 99 machine guns. The IJA had one, using (IIRC) the rimless round. The IJN had another, a copy of the Lewis, firing the 7.7 mm rimmed.

I wonder if any surplus Jap 7.7 rimmed was ever imported. I assume you could feed it to Lee Enfields.
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 6:23:59 PM EDT
[#9]
To go with the above the aforementioned 7.7 Navy is 7.7x56R and is, as far as I know the same cartridge as .303 Brit dimension wise.  The rifle/Army catridge in rimless and semi-rimmed guise was 7.7x58mm.  Like seemingly everything else with Japan's WWII requisition's process this must have been a confusing nightmare.  I've wondered if this ever lead to any incidents with putting ammo from one in the other at some point with captured weapons during or right after the war.

Weirdly 7.7x58mm is close enough in size you can make brass from .30-06 if you really need to.  I've seen surplus 7.7x58SR for sale but it's probably only stuck around as long as it has due to there being virtually no surviving guns to shoot with it.  I've been really tempted to buy some and tear it down, then reload into a 7.7x58mm Arisaka case but due to the lack of information I've seen on how the MG may or may not have been loaded differently made me decide to not go there.  I highly doubt it would blow up a good Type 99 but better safe than sorry.

Related to that, I think some combination of the ballistic similarity of 7.7x58 Arisaka to .303 Brit, combined with 7.7x56R just being a copy of .303 Brit and then confused for being the same as 7.7x58, has lead to blanket statements I've seen elsewhere that you can use .303 Brit loads for 7.7x58 Arisaka.  I see little reason to do this now with published 7.7 Japanese loads out there, though I found on my brass Hodgon's starting load for IMR4895 to not be enough to expand the case neck to prevent blow by (even loading it I thought it was way too low).  FWIW though my load with a 180gr does get within .5gr of a .303 Brit load from the same source but I wouldn't make that assumption for every powder and bullet out there.
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 7:17:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Gunboards.com has a Japanese weapons forum.  You will find experts who will gladly help.
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 10:56:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Have a  lead on one currently, hopefully the deal works outAttachment Attached File
Attachment Attached File
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Link Posted: 2/19/2017 10:46:31 PM EDT
[#12]
They are a lot easier to feed if you reload. the .311 bullet has a reasonable following, as the .303 Brit, 7.62x54r, and 7.7 Jap all use such a bullet. Match bullets can be found around 38 cents, and ball or soft points for around 24 cents. If you buy a 6.5 model, bullet options open op even more. There is a tremendous variety of premium and bulk 6.5 bullets available, and the cartridge is a little softer shooting to boot. The 6.5 is my preferred caliber in a Jap. If you don't reload, you will be facing high prices and limited availability.

The action is incredibly strong. I believe it was used for developing ultra high pressure 30-06 loads, and the testers quit increasing the charge before the rifles ever failed. It will not give you any problems.
Link Posted: 2/19/2017 10:49:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To go with the above the aforementioned 7.7 Navy is 7.7x56R and is, as far as I know the same cartridge as .303 Brit dimension wise.  The rifle/Army catridge in rimless and semi-rimmed guise was 7.7x58mm.  Like seemingly everything else with Japan's WWII requisition's process this must have been a confusing nightmare.  I've wondered if this ever lead to any incidents with putting ammo from one in the other at some point with captured weapons during or right after the war.

Weirdly 7.7x58mm is close enough in size you can make brass from .30-06 if you really need to.  I've seen surplus 7.7x58SR for sale but it's probably only stuck around as long as it has due to there being virtually no surviving guns to shoot with it.  I've been really tempted to buy some and tear it down, then reload into a 7.7x58mm Arisaka case but due to the lack of information I've seen on how the MG may or may not have been loaded differently made me decide to not go there.  I highly doubt it would blow up a good Type 99 but better safe than sorry.

Related to that, I think some combination of the ballistic similarity of 7.7x58 Arisaka to .303 Brit, combined with 7.7x56R just being a copy of .303 Brit and then confused for being the same as 7.7x58, has lead to blanket statements I've seen elsewhere that you can use .303 Brit loads for 7.7x58 Arisaka.  I see little reason to do this now with published 7.7 Japanese loads out there, though I found on my brass Hodgon's starting load for IMR4895 to not be enough to expand the case neck to prevent blow by (even loading it I thought it was way too low).  FWIW though my load with a 180gr does get within .5gr of a .303 Brit load from the same source but I wouldn't make that assumption for every powder and bullet out there.
View Quote
I don't think you are trying to say that .303 and 7.7 are interchangeable, but just in case I want to say

OP, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT INTERCHANGEABLE; USING ONE CALIBER IN THE OTHER RIFLE CAN LEAD TO SERIOUS RISK OF INJURY.
Link Posted: 2/20/2017 1:01:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't think you are trying to say that .303 and 7.7 are interchangeable, but just in case I want to say

OP, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT INTERCHANGEABLE; USING ONE CALIBER IN THE OTHER RIFLE CAN LEAD TO SERIOUS RISK OF INJURY.
View Quote


Yes, he is. There are three flavors of Japanese 7.7, rimless, semi rimmed, and rimmed...

The rifles used rimless...Army machine guns used the semi rimmed, and the Japanese Navy used the rimmed in their MG's...

The rimmed 7.7 round was basically the same as Brit .303....
Link Posted: 2/20/2017 1:33:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Yes, to be clear, 7.7x58 rimless in the Arisaka rifles is NOT interchangeable with .303 Brit.  Different case, only thing in common is the .311 bullet and even then I suggest slugging the bores on these first.  I've been trying the Sierra 180gr SP as it's easy to get locally and gotten about 2MOA out of my gun.  As I mentioned some try to interchange load data of 7.7x58 Arisaka and .303 Brit, I would caution strongly against that.
Link Posted: 2/27/2017 2:24:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Go get one. Or both.

All my 7.7x55 brass is made from cut-down .30-06 brass, works just fine.  A good caliber to reload for as it can be hard to find otherwise.  As others have noted, it's not the same as .303 or 7.7 rimmed machine gun ammo, so those trays of ammo at the gun show aren't for your gun!
Link Posted: 2/28/2017 7:21:34 PM EDT
[#17]
The new issue of firearms news has a Scarlata article about the murata, t30, t35, t38, t42, & t44
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