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Posted: 9/25/2016 7:50:52 PM EDT
[#1]
That s an interesting observation... But with my '43 Tula, the only poi difference is vertical dispersion... I will be right on with 147 go at 100 yds, the 180 grain Russian target (71 vintage) will go 3 inches higher at 100 yds, and the 203 grain Russian Olympic March ammo (72 vintage) will go 6 inches higher than the 147 gin at 100 yds... No horizontal dispersion at all....
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Posted: 9/25/2016 11:26:37 PM EDT
[#2]
I have one rifle that puts heavy bullets a little high to the left . I have not played with enough of them to see a pattern
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Posted: 9/28/2016 2:46:47 PM EDT
[#3]
You know more about ballistics than most people. Not many have even heard of barrel harmonics but that is what is causing the impact shift.
What surprises me is how far off they are going. ''Several'' inches, especially @ 50 yards, is huge. In most cases, as stated above, you'll have vertical dispersion with a small amount of horizontal shift but not several inches of it. As a reloader of that caliber I've tried 120gr bullets, which is the same weight difference as your bullets just lighter, and got impacts low and right but only 2 inches @ 50 yards. That was pretty much expected. Even bullets of the same weight will shoot to a different POI but not by much. There is definitely something wrong going on when you shoot the heavies. The gun does not like them at all. My advice is to not shoot them anymore. They are costly and the gun obviously doesn't shoot them very well. Stick with what you are using, when you run out go to another surplus round of the same weight or...start reloading. |
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Posted: 9/28/2016 4:49:43 PM EDT
[#4]
What forty5cal said rings true with my '43 Tula, it will shoot within an 1.5 inch groups all day long with standard '77 production 147 grain loads, around 2.5 to 3 inches with the 180 grain target ammo, and over 4 inches with the 203 grain olympic ammo at 100 yards... I got the target and olympic ammo to see how it performed (bargain price too), but now I only shoot the surplus 147 grain stuff because it just out performs nearly every other round, including new production S and B.
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Posted: 9/28/2016 10:07:04 PM EDT
[#5]
Cool, I'll try some more 147 gr. ammo to see what kind of POI shift I get. I have an entire crate (two spam cans, 880 rds.) of Russian milsurp from the 1980's that I haven't opened yet.
Also, still have 5 cans (2200 rounds) of the Bulgarian milsurp (likewise 147 grain bullets). Not 100% sure of the number of inches, but the heavier 180 gr. ammo certainly shot a good amount to the right at 50 yards. I'll shoot another target the next time I have the M39 at the range, and take actual measurements, as well as a photo of the target. Should be educational. Have about 230 rounds of the Wolf 180 gr. loads still. It might actually be worthwhile to re-zero with this ammo just so I can enjoy shooting it up. Well, "enjoy" isn't exactly right. For some reason, my M39 doesn't like the Wolf lacquered steel cases too much. They tend to cause sticky-bolt syndrome, where the brass-cased Bulgarian milsurp operates smooth as butter (barring the aforementioned slow-fire or non-firing round). |
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Posted: 9/28/2016 10:18:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know more about ballistics than most people. Not many have even heard of barrel harmonics but that is what is causing the impact shift. What surprises me is how far off they are going. ''Several'' inches, especially @ 50 yards, is huge. In most cases, as stated above, you'll have vertical dispersion with a small amount of horizontal shift but not several inches of it. As a reloader of that caliber I've tried 120gr bullets, which is the same weight difference as your bullets just lighter, and got impacts low and right but only 2 inches @ 50 yards. That was pretty much expected. Even bullets of the same weight will shoot to a different POI but not by much. There is definitely something wrong going on when you shoot the heavies. The gun does not like them at all. My advice is to not shoot them anymore. They are costly and the gun obviously doesn't shoot them very well. Stick with what you are using, when you run out go to another surplus round of the same weight or...start reloading. Aw shucks. All I did was read some articles on the Interwebz about ballistics. Is it perhaps the case that these rifles were designed with the 147 grain bullet in mind? I haven't researched when the heavier bullets were introduced, but perhaps they're a post-war invention. A given barrel twist rate is, I would think, going to be optimal for a certain range of bullet weights. Certainly that is true for ARs (1:7, 1;8, etc. twist rates). I don't know what the numbers are for my M39 or Mosin-Nagants in general. I do know that when I owned a Yugoslavian M48, I found that the 196 grain loading 8mm cartridges were impressively accurate, whereas Romanian milsurp 8mm with a 150 grain bullet patterned, instead of grouping. But maybe that's not what's happening here. |
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Posted: 9/29/2016 9:20:40 AM EDT
[#7]
WOW ! With over 3000 rounds you're not going to run out any time soon. That's good !
I've heard a lot of guys report that the 180gr stuff shoots better in their guns than anything else. But they are using surplus ammo not Wolf. In most cases Wolf is under-powered, cheap, junk ammo. I could never get that stuff to shoot well in anything. The 1st 1911 I ever got came with 2 boxes of Wolf 230gr ball. Me and a friend took it out back of his farm, put a target on a tree and started shooting. There was dirt flying in the air, leaves and small branches falling from the trees behind. We hit everything but that target. It didn't have a single hole in it. We were laughing our asses off it was so funny. I chalked it up to the myth that 1911's can't hit the side of a barn and didn't shoot it for several years. When I started reloading I got the idea that maybe I could get it to shoot better. I did. It's now one of my most favorite guns to shoot and rips 2'' gaping holes out of the center of targets at 25 yards. Anyways, the point of all this is you have to find something the gun likes. It will tell you what it does and doesn't, obviously it doesn't like that Wolf ammo and I'm not surprised. If it's easy enough to re-sight in an M-39 to where you're hitting now with the 147gr stuff, go ahead and change the sight settings to shoot off all that Wolf then go back to what you know the gun likes. |
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Posted: 9/29/2016 5:00:37 PM EDT
[#8]
M39 was designed to be used with the 200 grain D166 projectile @about 2300fps. There was also the slightly lighter D46 170grn at about 2528fps. While they certainly shoot the lighter stuff (The Finns had plenty of it laying around), they were meant to be used with the heavier projectiles.
Not sure why yours would prefer the lighter load. You sure both screws where tight on the front sight and it didn't just drift loose on you? Mine definitely likes the 203-grain ammo best of everything I've shot so far. But, I don't have crates and tins of surplus stuff stacked up, either. |
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Posted: 9/29/2016 6:29:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have one rifle that puts heavy bullets a little high to the left . I have not played with enough of them to see a pattern Finn M91 I have- I didn't find this out on paper but rather on a long gravel pit with a nice smooth embankment at the end-- It always shoots center with light ball. Dead on in fact. I bought some wolf (200 grain) bullets with it for deer. Decided to fire a round of the soft points at a rock about 200 yards away that Id been hitting with the ball ammo. I was hitting about 2 feet right and waaayyy to the left with the heavier hunting bullets. |
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Posted: 9/29/2016 11:23:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WOW ! With over 3000 rounds you're not going to run out any time soon. That's good ! Quote HistoryQuoted:
WOW ! With over 3000 rounds you're not going to run out any time soon. That's good ! Yeah. I felt kinda dumb for buying so much at one point, but then I checked out new 7.62x54R prices. Yikes. Quoted:If it's easy enough to re-sight in an M-39 to where you're hitting now with the 147gr stuff, go ahead and change the sight settings to shoot off all that Wolf then go back to what you know the gun likes. It is, and that's the plan. The M39 front sight is easy enough to adjust for windage. I should even be able to perhaps mark the current setting for 147 gr. (silver Sharpie, maybe, on the sight), adjust it for the Wolf, then put it back when I've shot all the Wolf. |
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Posted: 9/29/2016 11:31:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M39 was designed to be used with the 200 grain D166 projectile @about 2300fps. There was also the slightly lighter D46 170grn at about 2528fps. While they certainly shoot the lighter stuff (The Finns had plenty of it laying around), they were meant to be used with the heavier projectiles. Not sure why yours would prefer the lighter load. You sure both screws where tight on the front sight and it didn't just drift loose on you? Mine definitely likes the 203-grain ammo best of everything I've shot so far. But, I don't have crates and tins of surplus stuff stacked up, either. Front sight was tight. I kept a close eye on it, and locked the setting down with blue Loctite once I'd found the right adjustment. The reason I was zeroing it in the first place was that the adjustment screw had worked loose during a long shooting session, some months ago. That shouldn't happen again with the Loctite. I don't have any 200 gr. 7.62x54R. Guess I'll try some if I see it for sale. All the Wolf stuff is 180 gr. The Winchester was 180 gr. too, but I sent it back at Winchester's request (and prepaid postage) since I had four cratered primers and one pierced. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 5:59:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Front sight was tight. I kept a close eye on it, and locked the setting down with blue Loctite once I'd found the right adjustment. The reason I was zeroing it in the first place was that the adjustment screw had worked loose during a long shooting session, some months ago. That shouldn't happen again with the Loctite. I don't have any 200 gr. 7.62x54R. Guess I'll try some if I see it for sale. All the Wolf stuff is 180 gr. The Winchester was 180 gr. too, but I sent it back at Winchester's request (and prepaid postage) since I had four cratered primers and one pierced. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
M39 was designed to be used with the 200 grain D166 projectile @about 2300fps. There was also the slightly lighter D46 170grn at about 2528fps. While they certainly shoot the lighter stuff (The Finns had plenty of it laying around), they were meant to be used with the heavier projectiles. Not sure why yours would prefer the lighter load. You sure both screws where tight on the front sight and it didn't just drift loose on you? Mine definitely likes the 203-grain ammo best of everything I've shot so far. But, I don't have crates and tins of surplus stuff stacked up, either. Front sight was tight. I kept a close eye on it, and locked the setting down with blue Loctite once I'd found the right adjustment. The reason I was zeroing it in the first place was that the adjustment screw had worked loose during a long shooting session, some months ago. That shouldn't happen again with the Loctite. I don't have any 200 gr. 7.62x54R. Guess I'll try some if I see it for sale. All the Wolf stuff is 180 gr. The Winchester was 180 gr. too, but I sent it back at Winchester's request (and prepaid postage) since I had four cratered primers and one pierced. Mostly I just buy the Wolf/BB/SB 203-grain softpoints because I intend to use my M39 as a hunting rifle, like it should be. 
WPA used to have a 200-grain brass-case match load, came in a white box, but I haven't seen it for sale for a while. If you don't plan on hunting with your M39, I guess you could just shoot up what was left of it and leave it zeroed for the 147-grain ammo instead. That's probably what I would do. |
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Posted: 10/1/2016 2:08:10 AM EDT
[#13]
I don't hunt so yeah, I'll probably just keep shooting the 147 grain stuff.
I don't really even like the Wolf ammo. It keeps doing the sticky-bolt thing. Not sure why. Might trade it with another 7.62x54R shooter. Loving the M39 overall. It's a big heavy sumabitch, but it's made well and fun to shoot. Kinda want to put a scope on it, but don't want to butcher it. Will be researching scout scopes, and whether there's any way to non-destructively mount on an M39. |
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Posted: 10/1/2016 11:07:08 AM EDT
[#14]
I seem to remember back in the day somebody (IO?) had some hacked together M39s with PU scopes mounted on them.
Definitely not the way I'd go with it. As far as no-gunsmith mounts go, I did a tiny bit of googling, and it seems Galati Int'l and Brassstackers both have one. Neither are what I would consider ideal, but if you're set on the idea of putting a scope on it, they are probably the cheapest and easiest route to go. Personally, in the very brief time I considered scoping my M39, I was going to hunt for one of those Ukranian PE or PEM scopes & mount to mate with the hex receiver. Never did it though, I don't really live in an area that is conducive to shots at ranges where I would need the magnification. |
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Posted: 10/1/2016 1:17:25 PM EDT
[#15]
I use a non-marring scout mount (Darrell's Scout Mount). It was really important to me to not permanently modify the rifle. It shoots lights out. 
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Posted: 10/5/2016 12:09:21 AM EDT
[#16]
What scope is that?
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Posted: 10/5/2016 8:56:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What scope is that? It's a Burris 2-7 LER scout scope. |
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Posted: 10/5/2016 11:16:44 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://i.sli.mg/RrbSgB.jpg I use a non-marring scout mount (Darrell's Scout Mount). It was really important to me to not permanently modify the rifle. It shoots lights out. Where did you find that mount ? I just spent an hour looking for it. It looks like Darrell is out of business or not making these anymore. Is there another mount comparable ? I saw some that use the dovetail under the sight base. I'd like to find something for use on an M-44 that sits as low as possible. Any suggestions or specific places to look ? |
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Posted: 10/5/2016 1:29:02 PM EDT
[#19]
I got that mount in 2012. At the time, they were becoming hard to find. I spent some time looking then too. Sorry I don't have experience with another brand or kind.
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Posted: 10/5/2016 9:14:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where did you find that mount ? I just spent an hour looking for it. It looks like Darrell is out of business or not making these anymore. Is there another mount comparable ? I saw some that use the dovetail under the sight base. I'd like to find something for use on an M-44 that sits as low as possible. Any suggestions or specific places to look ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
https://i.sli.mg/RrbSgB.jpg I use a non-marring scout mount (Darrell's Scout Mount). It was really important to me to not permanently modify the rifle. It shoots lights out. Where did you find that mount ? I just spent an hour looking for it. It looks like Darrell is out of business or not making these anymore. Is there another mount comparable ? I saw some that use the dovetail under the sight base. I'd like to find something for use on an M-44 that sits as low as possible. Any suggestions or specific places to look ? You bring up a good point. The scout scope pictured above isn't as high as it was on a PU sniper repro I once owned, but it looks like you'd have some degree of "chin weld" instead of the usual shooting position. I supposed that could be addressed by appropriate padding on the stock. In fact, I've seen a tutorial showing how to make a quick and dirty and ugly, but practical, pad of this type using a certain kind of tape and foam pipe insulation. Might give it a swing.... ...if I can find the right mount. |
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Posted: 10/6/2016 6:09:29 AM EDT
[#21]
Yeah, it's bad enough my cheek is a little sore after a day shooting a Mosin I don't want all my teeth cracked the first time I pull the trigger with a ''chin weld''. That might be OK for a .22 or an AR but not something with the power of x54R.
I could make something out of soft leather that laces on with a foam insert for a cheek piece. You could easily do that yourself too. Soft, thin leather isn't as hard to work with as you think, it's the thick, stiff stuff that's tough. I'll have to keep looking for a mount. I absolutely don't want to drill holes unless I find one already bubba'd up. |
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Posted: 10/6/2016 6:48:27 PM EDT
[#22]
How to make an improvised cheekrest (LuckyGunner)
This is the tutorial I had in mind. I don't see why the same method wouldn't work on the M39. |
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Posted: 10/10/2016 8:58:33 AM EDT
[#23]
RE: duds/hangfires..
Try adjusting your firing pin out just a little. If it doesn't have enough extension that can cause erratic ignition. The firing pin must protrude at least .075 inches, but cannot exceed .095 inches. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 12:07:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
RE: duds/hangfires.. Try adjusting your firing pin out just a little. If it doesn't have enough extension that can cause erratic ignition. The firing pin must protrude at least .075 inches, but cannot exceed .095 inches. Mine is at 0.076". If I recall correctly, one adjusts firing pin protrusion by turning the slotted end of the firing pin (looks like a screw) at the back end of the bolt. Clockwise = sticks out more. Give it a turn or two? |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 7:43:41 AM EDT
[#25]
Yes, un-cock it first to let some tension off the spring.
Or take the bolt head off, slide off the bottom piece and use the ''tuning fork'' end to turn the front of the firing pin. ETA: Only turn it about a 1/4 turn at a time, maybe half a turn, then measure it. |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 12:05:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine is at 0.076". If I recall correctly, one adjusts firing pin protrusion by turning the slotted end of the firing pin (looks like a screw) at the back end of the bolt. Clockwise = sticks out more. Give it a turn or two? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: RE: duds/hangfires.. Try adjusting your firing pin out just a little. If it doesn't have enough extension that can cause erratic ignition. The firing pin must protrude at least .075 inches, but cannot exceed .095 inches. Mine is at 0.076". If I recall correctly, one adjusts firing pin protrusion by turning the slotted end of the firing pin (looks like a screw) at the back end of the bolt. Clockwise = sticks out more. Give it a turn or two? |
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Posted: 10/12/2016 11:28:36 PM EDT
[#27]
OK, sounds like a plan.
I definitely was NOT getting light strikes with the Winchester ammo. It had cratered primers and one pierced. But, I think it was a bum batch of ammo. Haven't heard back from Winchester yet, but they're supposedly working on it. |
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Posted: 10/13/2016 9:44:37 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, sounds like a plan. I definitely was NOT getting light strikes with the Winchester ammo. It had cratered primers and one pierced. But, I think it was a bum batch of ammo. Haven't heard back from Winchester yet, but they're supposedly working on it. It's pierced primers on me as well and the brass isn't that great for reloading... usually cracks on first reload. |
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Posted: 10/14/2016 10:03:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Interesting. Guess they haven't changed their formula then, assuming your experience was recent. My Winchester 7.62x54R was from 2008 or before, as best I can estimate (it was part of an estate).
Cratered and pierced primers aren't normal though, surely? Especially since my firing pin protrusion is on the low end of the scale? |
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Posted: 10/15/2016 10:02:47 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. Guess they haven't changed their formula then, assuming your experience was recent. My Winchester 7.62x54R was from 2008 or before, as best I can estimate (it was part of an estate). Cratered and pierced primers aren't normal though, surely? Especially since my firing pin protrusion is on the low end of the scale? Fire a few rounds of milsurp to get a better indication of the cratering issue. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 9:40:53 PM EDT
[#31]
That's the point actually: I've fired many, many rounds of milsurp & never seen primer cratering. It only happened with the Winchester ammo.
No word yet on a resolution with Winchester. They're certainly taking their time. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 11:05:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the point actually: I've fired many, many rounds of milsurp & never seen primer cratering. It only happened with the Winchester ammo. No word yet on a resolution with Winchester. They're certainly taking their time. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 12:53:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Got a check from Winchester for $60 for the two boxes of ammo. :)
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Posted: 10/25/2016 5:58:13 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got a check from Winchester for $60 for the two boxes of ammo. :) |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 10:50:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Not the first time Winchester took care of me.
About 8 years ago, I bought a 100 pack of Winchester .45 ACP at Wal-Mart and got home to find 7 rounds missing due to an apparent packaging error. Long story short, I ended up with two 100-packs. :) Back then, the only way to contact Winchester about defective ammo was by mail, so the process took a bit longer. These days they have this outfit called Repco handling defective ammo issues. I suspect it ends up being cheaper for them to cut you a check vs. actually send replacement ammo. I'm happy either way. |
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