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Posted: 9/29/2015 10:58:40 AM EDT
[#1]
in for the info, cool story
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Posted: 9/29/2015 11:17:36 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
My grandfather brought back an M1911 from the battle of Okinawa. It's a battlefield pickup. He dictated the story which I typed out. He is going to sign it and have it notarized. It will have the serial number, a short description of the gun as well. Is that sufficient provenance for the gun? If there's another forum for this question please let me know. Without official documentation is all just heresay. Great story but carries no provenance. How can a US 1911 be a battlefield pickup that term is generally reserved for enemy weapons. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 11:54:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Without official documentation is all just heresay. Great story but carries no provenance. How can a US 1911 be a battlefield pickup that term is generally reserved for enemy weapons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My grandfather brought back an M1911 from the battle of Okinawa. It's a battlefield pickup. He dictated the story which I typed out. He is going to sign it and have it notarized. It will have the serial number, a short description of the gun as well. Is that sufficient provenance for the gun? If there's another forum for this question please let me know. Without official documentation is all just heresay. Great story but carries no provenance. How can a US 1911 be a battlefield pickup that term is generally reserved for enemy weapons. No offense intended, but ditto. Provenance would be some kind of official government document that shows an official trail of history/possession. Notarized documents are not proof of anything beyond that a particular person(s) made a statement. There's nothing to stop anyone from paying a WWII vet to sign a document and getting it notarized. The notary doesn't care about or have anything to do with the veracity of the contents of a document; they only witness that the document was produced freely without coercion by the person(s) that produced it, and they confirm the identity of the producer(s). For example, they confirm that a document was produced by John Smith and that he did so not under duress; they don't confirm the accuracy of the information in the document beyond the identity of the producer(s). If it was a simple as a notarized statement, the collector's market would be replete with fraudulent notarized statements about how every Luger or K98 out there was an SS issue weapon. As a collector, the notarized statement would prove to me that your grandfather did indeed make the statement, but not that the statement was true. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 12:01:59 PM EDT
[#4]
No offense taken. All good information and perspective. I just want to best capture the story for future generations in case they ever need to prove it.
Battlefield pickup: taken from the waistband of a dead marine during the battle. Perhaps I'll pay for a Colt letter as well to couple with the statement. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 3:23:09 PM EDT
[#5]
All a colt letter is going to tell you is the date and location it was shipped to, such as " shipped may 25 1944 to transportation officer Oakland army base" or words to that effect. It would hold more weight if the gun is proven to be in a shipment sent directly to a usmc facility but this is not common
Is it a 1911 or a1 is it actually a colt? Remember just because the slide says colt it could be a mismatched gun with an Ithaca Remington rand or union switch frame or in the case of a 1911 a Springfield or Remington umc frame. More info and pictures might help |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 3:25:29 PM EDT
[#6]
There is even the possibility it is a commercial gun bought by an officer and carried
As mentioned unless you have documents proving its possession on Okinawa it really is just a story. Certainly can be a true story but story just the same |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 4:23:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
My grandfather brought back an M1911 from the battle of Okinawa. It's a battlefield pickup. He dictated the story which I typed out. He is going to sign it and have it notarized. It will have the serial number, a short description of the gun as well. Is that sufficient provenance for the gun? If there's another forum for this question please let me know. My uncle served at the battle of Okinawa, he was a radio man in the Army 77th Infantry and carried an M1 Garand. Unfortunately he passed in 2009 and he never wanted to talk about the war, which given that his unit took about 70% casualties doesn't really surprise me. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 5:02:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My uncle served at the battle of Okinawa, he was a radio man in the Army 77th Infantry and carried an M1 Garand. Unfortunately he passed in 2009 and he never wanted to talk about the war, which given that his unit took about 70% casualties doesn't really surprise me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My grandfather brought back an M1911 from the battle of Okinawa. It's a battlefield pickup. He dictated the story which I typed out. He is going to sign it and have it notarized. It will have the serial number, a short description of the gun as well. Is that sufficient provenance for the gun? If there's another forum for this question please let me know. My uncle served at the battle of Okinawa, he was a radio man in the Army 77th Infantry and carried an M1 Garand. Unfortunately he passed in 2009 and he never wanted to talk about the war, which given that his unit took about 70% casualties doesn't really surprise me. Plus one there My grandfather served also with the 77th carried a bar and would never talk about much at all it was like prying teeth to get anything out of him. All i know he made three invasions Guam, PI, and Okinawa than served a year in Japan. All he would say is there was another war he would head for the hills. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 6:35:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Plus one there My grandfather served also with the 77th carried a bar and would never talk about much at all it was like prying teeth to get anything out of him. All i know he made three invasions Guam, PI, and Okinawa than served a year in Japan. All he would say is there was another war he would head for the hills. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My grandfather brought back an M1911 from the battle of Okinawa. It's a battlefield pickup. He dictated the story which I typed out. He is going to sign it and have it notarized. It will have the serial number, a short description of the gun as well. Is that sufficient provenance for the gun? If there's another forum for this question please let me know. My uncle served at the battle of Okinawa, he was a radio man in the Army 77th Infantry and carried an M1 Garand. Unfortunately he passed in 2009 and he never wanted to talk about the war, which given that his unit took about 70% casualties doesn't really surprise me. Plus one there My grandfather served also with the 77th carried a bar and would never talk about much at all it was like prying teeth to get anything out of him. All i know he made three invasions Guam, PI, and Okinawa than served a year in Japan. All he would say is there was another war he would head for the hills. My uncle also served at Guam and PI before Okinawa although according to records I've seen he shipped back to the US aboard the USS Texas instead of going to Japan. My dad says he only heard his brother talk about the war once, a few months after he got back he apparently got a call from someone in his unit who had been injured in PI and sent home. My dad only heard one side of the call but the guy was asking about people in the unit and apparently all but a couple of the people he asked about hadn't made it back home. Another story my dad tells is that his family all went to the state fair the summer after my uncle got back from the war and they were out in the parking lot getting ready to leave just as the fireworks went off that were at the end of the evening's concert (something they do every night of the fair... concert then fireworks show). My dad said his brother instinctively dove under the car when the first big shell went off. From what I've read the artillery bombardment at Okinawa lasted for a long time and was what caused a lot of the casualties. Guns like that 1911 should be reminders to those of us who never had to serve the sacrifices of those who did. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 9:02:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Well said. Grandpas into his 90s and had a tough time getting through the story. But, he actually volunteered it because he wants the history to be known. I've taken on the job to get as much documentation as I can to be sure his story goes on generations down the family with this gun
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Posted: 10/1/2015 2:29:49 PM EDT
[#11]
http://imgur.com/U3aFhTA
http://imgur.com/lQ7NcRg 1918 is the date listed from the Colt serial lookup. The gun is obviously in rough shape, but I think it's battle history makes it so cool. |
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Posted: 10/1/2015 2:35:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://imgur.com/U3aFhTA http://imgur.com/lQ7NcRg 1918 is the date listed from the Colt serial lookup. The gun is obviously in rough shape, but I think it's battle history makes it so cool. Is it missing a front sight post or is it broken off? |
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Posted: 10/1/2015 3:06:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Missing
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Posted: 10/1/2015 11:15:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Post the serial number ( with the last digit. X'd out if you are paranoid about such things ) and I can look up in my references where the gun was shipped to from colt.
Since it is a 1911 not an a1 it could have been anywhere in the 25 years or so between being built and obtained by gramps |
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Posted: 10/2/2015 12:27:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No offense taken. All good information and perspective. I just want to best capture the story for future generations in case they ever need to prove it. Battlefield pickup: taken from the waistband of a dead marine during the battle. Perhaps I'll pay for a Colt letter as well to couple with the statement. Was your grandpa in the Imperial Japanese Army 
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Posted: 10/2/2015 7:20:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://imgur.com/U3aFhTA http://imgur.com/lQ7NcRg 1918 is the date listed from the Colt serial lookup. The gun is obviously in rough shape, but I think it's battle history makes it so cool. It's just a story and adds no dollar value to the piece. That said it's a great thing to have to hand down to a family member when you get old. BTW....You really need to learn how to post pics or hot-link. 
Tutorial here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/876558_.html See, it's easy. 
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Posted: 10/2/2015 9:17:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Post the serial number ( with the last digit. X'd out if you are paranoid about such things ) and I can look up in my references where the gun was shipped to from colt. Since it is a 1911 not an a1 it could have been anywhere in the 25 years or so between being built and obtained by gramps 22368X |
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Posted: 10/2/2015 9:21:27 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was your grandpa in the Imperial Japanese Army Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No offense taken. All good information and perspective. I just want to best capture the story for future generations in case they ever need to prove it. Battlefield pickup: taken from the waistband of a dead marine during the battle. Perhaps I'll pay for a Colt letter as well to couple with the statement. Was your grandpa in the Imperial Japanese Army C'mon now. He said they were triaging the dead and injured just after the shooting stopped. It wasn't uncommon to pick up extra materiel for use next time they were sent out from those less fortunate. His officers commonly pilfered weapons, and took a Nambu he had picked up in the fight just because the officer wanted to "round out his collection" |
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Posted: 10/5/2015 12:50:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
22368X Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Post the serial number ( with the last digit. X'd out if you are paranoid about such things ) and I can look up in my references where the gun was shipped to from colt. Since it is a 1911 not an a1 it could have been anywhere in the 25 years or so between being built and obtained by gramps 22368X Any info? |
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Posted: 10/5/2015 10:49:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Sorry for not getting back to you- wife had surgery and I am staying away from home and not near my references right now but will post when I get home!
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Posted: 10/6/2015 8:06:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was your grandpa in the Imperial Japanese Army Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No offense taken. All good information and perspective. I just want to best capture the story for future generations in case they ever need to prove it. Battlefield pickup: taken from the waistband of a dead marine during the battle. Perhaps I'll pay for a Colt letter as well to couple with the statement. Was your grandpa in the Imperial Japanese Army I was thinking the same thing. Not sure I'd have taken it from a dead Marine, but in War I guess it's different and he didn't need it anymore.
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Posted: 10/6/2015 10:00:03 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was thinking the same thing. Not sure I'd have taken it from a dead Marine, but in War I guess it's different and he didn't need it anymore. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: No offense taken. All good information and perspective. I just want to best capture the story for future generations in case they ever need to prove it. Battlefield pickup: taken from the waistband of a dead marine during the battle. Perhaps I'll pay for a Colt letter as well to couple with the statement. Was your grandpa in the Imperial Japanese Army I was thinking the same thing. Not sure I'd have taken it from a dead Marine, but in War I guess it's different and he didn't need it anymore. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 11:23:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Let's not argue over picking up weapons . My dad got a Luger after jumping on D-day , he collected it off of a dead German. He gave it to a friend when he was wounded and sent to the hospital to recover. the friend shot his unit CO with it . Dad did not get his Luger back. He did recover and do Market Garden as well
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Posted: 10/6/2015 4:12:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was thinking the same thing. Not sure I'd have taken it from a dead Marine, but in War I guess it's different and he didn't need it anymore. Leave weapons around when there are live Japs still in the fight? One of my dad's friends was a Marine on Guadacal, Guam, and Okinawa. He had a private 1911 that, IIRC, his dad gave him. Later he left it with a friend who was to return it to him but ended up stealing it instead. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 4:25:52 PM EDT
[#25]
Better late than never research says you pistol shipped from colt on 1/21/18 to ordnance depot Greenville piers jersey city new jersey
This was a location the AEF embarked from for World War One. So after ww1 it apparently made its way into usmc inventory ( most if not all pier depot guns were issued out to the army just prior to boarding ship) Sorry to say unless this particular pistol serial number is a "hit" on Springfield research services databases ( not affiliated with sa inc in geneseo I'll) you won't ever know much more. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:06:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have heard tons of these stories. From my understanding, it was common (and expected) to police up weapons from the dead after battle so that they would not fall into enemy hands. Picking one up and not reporting it was also a great way to get an extra firearm, or one to mail home. Why some are angry about that I have no idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No offense taken. All good information and perspective. I just want to best capture the story for future generations in case they ever need to prove it. Battlefield pickup: taken from the waistband of a dead marine during the battle. Perhaps I'll pay for a Colt letter as well to couple with the statement. Was your grandpa in the Imperial Japanese Army I was thinking the same thing. Not sure I'd have taken it from a dead Marine, but in War I guess it's different and he didn't need it anymore. That makes sense, I stand corrected. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 1:24:27 PM EDT
[#27]
When we had an ied strike in Iraq and lost seven soldiers ( what a crap day!) we spent lots of time confirming we recovered all weapons involved - a couple of days in Indian country chomping the wreck site for what was left of the weapons. The idea of stripping everyone of usable weapons to deny enemy use is completely logical
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