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Posted: 7/27/2014 8:59:32 AM EDT
[#1]
That's a trials M44 and is one of the harder m44 to find.
Looking forward to seeing some pics of it. Don't over clean it. 
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Posted: 7/27/2014 9:24:37 AM EDT
[#2]
In for night fireball video.
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:33:17 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Pics later once I get it home and clean her up :-) This time use hoppes and leave the breakfree for the ar
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Posted: 7/27/2014 10:57:35 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This time use hoppes and leave the breakfree for the ar Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Pics later once I get it home and clean her up :-) This time use hoppes and leave the breakfree for the ar Yea actually got her all apart small hair split at left of stock just cosmetic edge near bolt. Wood glued it looks good at least it was superficial. All metal off did some break free on metal only about to run grab some break cleaner scrub the hell tar (cosmoline) from it all then will follow up with hops 9 scrub then will lightly oil out back together and final light oil. Stock already cleaned with Murphy oil wood soap. Good stuff. Then pics time :-) Anything special i should take pics of so i know pretty much everything about its history? Right now i know 1943 barrel has been counter bored (haven't seen an m44 yet that wasn't) Post war stock (press in metal things at strap points) All matching serials on barrel, bolt, stock plate, magazine with no strike throughs so must be original |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 1:43:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Pics!! :-)
Ok...so tell me what I don't know, confirm what I think I know. Also picked up 100 rounds of PPU brass ammo which I know is boxer primed. The other are brass cased but I think they are berdan primed. Which if so i'll probably attempt a conversion on them. Either way....I still need to make a slug, get some dowels and slug this barrel, order dies, die plate and some projs ;-) 
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Posted: 7/27/2014 5:03:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Right now surplus ammo is the cheapest to shoot. I found dies and some brass. I have it saved for when surplus ammo is no longer an option. I am also buying and saving some PPU ammo to eventually shoot and reload.
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Posted: 7/27/2014 7:14:42 PM EDT
[#7]
That's one of the 50K "trials rifles (carbines)" they fielded for testing. I have one and it's the only M44 I kept when I thinned the herd a few years ago. I have seen one non-counter bored M44 in the many I've seen. It was a 1944 Tula. Kicking myself for selling it.
ETA - That Navy Arms ammo looks like re-packaged Bulgarian heavy ball ammo. Stout recoil and nice fireball if it is. 
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Posted: 7/27/2014 7:58:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's one of the 50K "trials rifles (carbines)" they fielded for testing. I have one and it's the only M44 I kept when I thinned the herd a few years ago. I have seen one non-counter bored M44 in the many I've seen. It was a 1944 Tula. Kicking myself for selling it.
ETA - That Navy Arms ammo looks like re-packaged Bulgarian heavy ball ammo. Stout recoil and nice fireball if it is. Wondering if it's corrosive or not. Can't wait to fire it :-) |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 9:20:37 PM EDT
[#9]
when in doubt always treat it like corrosive unless it says on the box non.
Corrosive is a non-issue as long as these 3 are followed 1. water 2. hoppes 3. oil |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 2:44:12 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when in doubt always treat it like corrosive unless it says on the box non. Corrosive is a non-issue as long as these 3 are followed 1. water 2. hoppes 3. oil I've been doing windex (at range) then at home hoppes, oil. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 4:22:23 AM EDT
[#11]
Are non-counterbored M44s really that uncommon? I have a couple.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 6:39:50 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are non-counterbored M44s really that uncommon? I have a couple. depends on the year -wartime / non wartime |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 6:40:33 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been doing windex (at range) then at home hoppes, oil. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
when in doubt always treat it like corrosive unless it says on the box non. Corrosive is a non-issue as long as these 3 are followed 1. water 2. hoppes 3. oil I've been doing windex (at range) then at home hoppes, oil. Sounds good; windex is 98-99% water . |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:22:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Other than the bbl date, what indicates OP's carbine is a trails version? Not disputing it, would just like to learn how to differentiate from the bog-standard $200 carbines out there.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:26:25 AM EDT
[#15]
a 1943 dated m44 are all trials before the model was officially adapted in 1944. 50,000 were made in '43 for the trial run.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:45:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
a 1943 dated m44 are all trials before the model was officially adapted in 1944. 50,000 were made in '43 for the trial run. Yep, got that. Is the bbl date the only signifier? So if it was rebarreled in depot, the trials receiver is lost to history? Or if someone throws a cut down '43 rifle bbl on a garden variety '44, there's no way of knowing? Or can we tell by the tang date? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 9:50:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, got that. Is the bbl date the only signifier? So if it was rebarreled in depot, the trials receiver is lost to history? Or if someone throws a cut down '43 rifle bbl on a garden variety '44, there's no way of knowing? Or can we tell by the tang date? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
a 1943 dated m44 are all trials before the model was officially adapted in 1944. 50,000 were made in '43 for the trial run. Yep, got that. Is the bbl date the only signifier? So if it was rebarreled in depot, the trials receiver is lost to history? Or if someone throws a cut down '43 rifle bbl on a garden variety '44, there's no way of knowing? Or can we tell by the tang date? From my experience the Russian arsenals did not rebarrel rifles. The ones that were too poor were scraped. A trial rifle does not bring that much of a premium.. usually $50 over a run-of-the-mill refurb; so monterly it wouldn't make sense to cut down a 1943 91/30, spend the extra 50 bucks finding a bayonet lug and bayo no to mention a stock. Now a 1891/59 are cut down 91/30s done by the czechs.. but thats a whole different animal and they are imported and marked as a 91/59. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 9:55:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From my experience the Russian arsenals did not rebarrel rifles. The ones that were too poor were scraped. A trial rifle does not bring that much of a premium.. usually $50 over a run-of-the-mill refurb; so monterly it wouldn't make sense to cut down a 1943 91/30, spend the extra 50 bucks finding a bayonet lug and bayo no to mention a stock. Now a 1891/59 are cut down 91/30s done by the czechs.. but thats a whole different animal and they are imported and marked as a 91/59. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
a 1943 dated m44 are all trials before the model was officially adapted in 1944. 50,000 were made in '43 for the trial run. Yep, got that. Is the bbl date the only signifier? So if it was rebarreled in depot, the trials receiver is lost to history? Or if someone throws a cut down '43 rifle bbl on a garden variety '44, there's no way of knowing? Or can we tell by the tang date? From my experience the Russian arsenals did not rebarrel rifles. The ones that were too poor were scraped. A trial rifle does not bring that much of a premium.. usually $50 over a run-of-the-mill refurb; so monterly it wouldn't make sense to cut down a 1943 91/30, spend the extra 50 bucks finding a bayonet lug and bayo no to mention a stock. Now a 1891/59 are cut down 91/30s done by the czechs.. but thats a whole different animal and they are imported and marked as a 91/59. Actually, old worn MN rifle barrels were cut down found new life on the PPSh. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 10:33:26 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From my experience the Russian arsenals did not rebarrel rifles. The ones that were too poor were scraped. A trial rifle does not bring that much of a premium.. usually $50 over a run-of-the-mill refurb; so monterly it wouldn't make sense to cut down a 1943 91/30, spend the extra 50 bucks finding a bayonet lug and bayo no to mention a stock.
Now a 1891/59 are cut down 91/30s done by the czechs.. but thats a whole different animal and they are imported and marked as a 91/59. Er, who did the rebarreling of the hex '91's then? Antique receiver w/ a '43 bbl date, etc. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 12:17:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Er, who did the rebarreling of the hex '91's then? Antique receiver w/ a '43 bbl date, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: From my experience the Russian arsenals did not rebarrel rifles. The ones that were too poor were scraped. A trial rifle does not bring that much of a premium.. usually $50 over a run-of-the-mill refurb; so monterly it wouldn't make sense to cut down a 1943 91/30, spend the extra 50 bucks finding a bayonet lug and bayo no to mention a stock.
Now a 1891/59 are cut down 91/30s done by the czechs.. but thats a whole different animal and they are imported and marked as a 91/59. Er, who did the rebarreling of the hex '91's then? Antique receiver w/ a '43 bbl date, etc. Recycled receivers in wartime constraints can be common.. heck many early 1920s ex-dragoons/dragoons were using WW1 receivers due to problems with skilled labor and machinery after the revolution. But thats a whole different area of discussion. I was speaking of the barrels. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 12:34:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Recycled receivers in wartime constraints can be common.. heck many early 1920s ex-dragoons/dragoons were using WW1 receivers due to problems with skilled labor and machinery after the revolution. But thats a whole different area of discussion. I was speaking of the barrels. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: From my experience the Russian arsenals did not rebarrel rifles. The ones that were too poor were scraped. A trial rifle does not bring that much of a premium.. usually $50 over a run-of-the-mill refurb; so monterly it wouldn't make sense to cut down a 1943 91/30, spend the extra 50 bucks finding a bayonet lug and bayo no to mention a stock.
Now a 1891/59 are cut down 91/30s done by the czechs.. but thats a whole different animal and they are imported and marked as a 91/59. Er, who did the rebarreling of the hex '91's then? Antique receiver w/ a '43 bbl date, etc. Recycled receivers in wartime constraints can be common.. heck many early 1920s ex-dragoons/dragoons were using WW1 receivers due to problems with skilled labor and machinery after the revolution. But thats a whole different area of discussion. I was speaking of the barrels. Ok, now I'm really confused. But then I'm an Aggie, happens frequently. Are these the barrels the Russians use as trashcans to put their AK's in? 
So my real question boils down to - how do we know OP's M44 is a trials gun, and not a later M44 that an earlier bbl was put on? Bbl swapping on Mosin receivers, while not common, did occur. How are we sure that's not what happened to OP's carbine? I'm not doubting OP has a trials carbine - I'm asking how are we certain. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:00:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Mosin nagants are an unusual bunch.. unlike many other rifles.. the barrel makes the rifle.. not the receiver.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:04:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, now I'm really confused. But then I'm an Aggie, happens frequently. Are these the barrels the Russians use as trashcans to put their AK's in?
So my real question boils down to - how do we know OP's M44 is a trials gun, and not a later M44 that an earlier bbl was put on? Bbl swapping on Mosin receivers, while not common, did occur. How are we sure that's not what happened to OP's carbine? I'm not doubting OP has a trials carbine - I'm asking how are we certain. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: From my experience the Russian arsenals did not rebarrel rifles. The ones that were too poor were scraped. A trial rifle does not bring that much of a premium.. usually $50 over a run-of-the-mill refurb; so monterly it wouldn't make sense to cut down a 1943 91/30, spend the extra 50 bucks finding a bayonet lug and bayo no to mention a stock.
Now a 1891/59 are cut down 91/30s done by the czechs.. but thats a whole different animal and they are imported and marked as a 91/59. Er, who did the rebarreling of the hex '91's then? Antique receiver w/ a '43 bbl date, etc. Recycled receivers in wartime constraints can be common.. heck many early 1920s ex-dragoons/dragoons were using WW1 receivers due to problems with skilled labor and machinery after the revolution. But thats a whole different area of discussion. I was speaking of the barrels. Ok, now I'm really confused. But then I'm an Aggie, happens frequently. Are these the barrels the Russians use as trashcans to put their AK's in?
So my real question boils down to - how do we know OP's M44 is a trials gun, and not a later M44 that an earlier bbl was put on? Bbl swapping on Mosin receivers, while not common, did occur. How are we sure that's not what happened to OP's carbine? I'm not doubting OP has a trials carbine - I'm asking how are we certain. Let me know any pics i can provide of needed. I do see a 1943 stamp under barrel where the rear screw goes in (tang?) So my big question whAts its value? I saw one on gb go for 500. Fluke? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:05:48 PM EDT
[#24]
500 - fluke yes.
I would say 300-350 would be very fair. Aim had around a 100 a year or so ago.. selling for 275-285 if memory serves me. Yes your receiver is 1943. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:12:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mosin nagants are an unusual bunch.. unlike many other rifles.. the barrel makes the rifle.. not the receiver. Come again? I'm trying to follow you, but I'm an Aggie w/ only 4 Mosins, none of which left the factory in the condition they're now in - even the Finn.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:19:18 PM EDT
[#26]
ok here is an example
m91 1923 ex-dragoon - on a 1917 receiver.. the reciever is for a m91.. but the rifle is not an m91 its a 91/30 updated from a dragoon . 
another example M27 on a 1894 French receiver from a m91.. we don't call it a m91 now.. its a m27. 
m39 with another french receiver: 
So with mosin nagants.. the barrel makes the rifle not the reciever. Another way to be certain what it is - the import mark. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:44:45 PM EDT
[#27]
Many M44's are arsenal rebuilt. You can tell by the stock patches and new marks on the metal parts.
The M44 is the urban combat version of the traditional Mosin Nagant which is a very long but certainly reliable Russian rifle. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:52:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ok here is an example
m91 1923 ex-dragoon - on a 1917 receiver.. the reciever is for a m91.. but the rifle is not an m91 its a 91/30 updated from a dragoon . https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3701/9475957992_2cf1c8f68a_b.jpg another example M27 on a 1894 French receiver from a m91.. we don't call it a m91 now.. its a m27. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3845/14539515600_72f80a14e8_b.jpg m39 with another french receiver: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3861/14767476164_d4156cd483_b.jpg So with mosin nagants.. the barrel makes the rifle not the reciever. Another way to be certain what it is - the import mark. Ok - so what you're saying is you discuss Mosins in terms of their last built configuration. For the C&R crowd, that makes sense. For those of us who prize antiques, that's not necessarily true. Nor for those of us who buy sporterized Mosins - all we may have to go on may be the receiver. But I understand where you're coming from - thanks. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:55:58 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok - so what you're saying is you discuss Mosins in terms of their last built configuration. For the C&R crowd, that makes sense. For those of us who prize antiques, that's not necessarily true. Nor for those of us who buy sporterized Mosins - all we may have to go on may be the receiver. But I understand where you're coming from - thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: ok here is an example
m91 1923 ex-dragoon - on a 1917 receiver.. the reciever is for a m91.. but the rifle is not an m91 its a 91/30 updated from a dragoon . https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3701/9475957992_2cf1c8f68a_b.jpg another example M27 on a 1894 French receiver from a m91.. we don't call it a m91 now.. its a m27. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3845/14539515600_72f80a14e8_b.jpg m39 with another french receiver: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3861/14767476164_d4156cd483_b.jpg So with mosin nagants.. the barrel makes the rifle not the reciever. Another way to be certain what it is - the import mark. Ok - so what you're saying is you discuss Mosins in terms of their last built configuration. For the C&R crowd, that makes sense. For those of us who prize antiques, that's not necessarily true. Nor for those of us who buy sporterized Mosins - all we may have to go on may be the receiver. But I understand where you're coming from - thanks. A receiver will give you an idea where to go by..and it will allow you to rule out possibilities.. but for the most part the barrel and its last configuration is where its at. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 2:34:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
500 - fluke yes. I would say 300-350 would be very fair. Aim had around a 100 a year or so ago.. selling for 275-285 if memory serves me. Yes your receiver is 1943. Good then I'm sitting good being out the door with new production sling. Who knows 10 yrs might be worth 800-1k :-) never the less i rarely sell so my kids or future grand kids will benefit and hopefully just keep it and remember us shooting it |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 2:59:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Early M44 were refurbed but towards the end of production years they pretty much just stuck them in a crate for storage in their original condition. There are plenty of examples of M44s made on recycled hex receivers, most seem to be 1944 years
The tang date helps figure out the history on the rifle. Same date as the barrel then it is original, A year older or newer then likely an end of year beginning of next built rifle. Years apart then it was a recycled receiver. I have a rifle that started as a 1916 Tula m91, re-barreled at Tula as a 1920 date m91, then recycled in 1931 with the tang being re-stamped and a 1932 barrel added. It ending up as a Finn capture transitional 91/30. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 3:38:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Early M44 were refurbed but towards the end of production years they pretty much just stuck them in a crate for storage in their original condition. There are plenty of examples of M44s made on recycled hex receivers, most seem to be 1944 years Yes, most seen with recycled receivers are from the 50,000 1944 tula production run. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:38:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
depends on the year -wartime / non wartime Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Are non-counterbored M44s really that uncommon? I have a couple. depends on the year -wartime / non wartime They are both 1944 in laminate stocks. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 9:14:07 PM EDT
[#34]
So being BA2145 serials from Russia i take it this was one of the first 2k made for trials? Too bad original stocks not with it that'd be totally banger!!!
I slugged the barrel and it comes out to .3125 for the groove and the lands is .3035. I'm assuming thats good? |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 2:09:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Not sure the Russians followed any serial number sequence. Mine is KO6868. There was a serial number survey over at Gunboards IIRC for the '43 M44's some years ago. I don't remember them making any rhyme or reason, just blocks of numbers.
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