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Posted: 10/31/2016 11:11:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Steel isn't an option.
The "protection" of hard armor is to protect your vitals, not your entire torso. If you have to go up a size and carry heavier plates, that's what you have to do. |
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Posted: 10/31/2016 11:46:51 PM EDT
[#2]
For large and xl sized plates stick with sapi style. They will be a bit heavier but the triple curve is way more comfortable than a single. My paracletes are size large and weigh 6.5 lbs each. The triple curve allows them to fit much closer to my body when moving or sitting.
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Posted: 10/31/2016 11:48:26 PM EDT
[#3]
First off... if you are not training in your vest to handle all that weight, you will not be able to do much if/when the time comes.
Second... a tree, a wall... going prone in a ditch, are all better armor than a vest.. just FYI.. tactics & brains and physical training will do more to protect your vitals that AR500 steel. I have plates.. I train in them on long hikes weekly.. but my thoughts on armor is that its for when you have to be static, or in a vehicle. If I had to sit in my house... without the ability to move, armor makes sense. If I have to sit in a drivers seat.. armor makes sense. For every other serious situation, movement, cover and 3A if you have to have it) in your vest will do you much more good than weighing yourself down with steel plates. Besides.. even with 11x14, your groin, shoulders, head, neck, thighs and arms are all out there. Any rifle hit in those areas and you are going down. |
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Posted: 10/31/2016 11:54:45 PM EDT
[#4]
M855A1 conquers all steel. It's really not a viable option these days.
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Posted: 11/1/2016 12:01:38 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Steel isn't an option. The "protection" of hard armor is to protect your vitals, not your entire torso. If you have to go up a size and carry heavier plates, that's what you have to do. According to all of the sizing charts I have seen, I'm an XL. I have a 50" chest. Does anyone make 11x14 ceramic plates? Also, if I went with 10x12 just for vitals would they move around inside the pocket? |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 12:31:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to all of the sizing charts I have seen, I'm an XL. I have a 50" chest. Does anyone make 11x14 ceramic plates? Also, if I went with 10x12 just for vitals would they move around inside the pocket? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Steel isn't an option. The "protection" of hard armor is to protect your vitals, not your entire torso. If you have to go up a size and carry heavier plates, that's what you have to do. According to all of the sizing charts I have seen, I'm an XL. I have a 50" chest. Does anyone make 11x14 ceramic plates? Also, if I went with 10x12 just for vitals would they move around inside the pocket? http://www.lifeandlibertygear.com/shop/hesco-armor-bi-4400-gl-10x12-level-iv-armor-plate/ |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 7:54:15 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to all of the sizing charts I have seen, I'm an XL. I have a 50" chest. Does anyone make 11x14 ceramic plates? Also, if I went with 10x12 just for vitals would they move around inside the pocket? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Steel isn't an option. The "protection" of hard armor is to protect your vitals, not your entire torso. If you have to go up a size and carry heavier plates, that's what you have to do. According to all of the sizing charts I have seen, I'm an XL. I have a 50" chest. Does anyone make 11x14 ceramic plates? Also, if I went with 10x12 just for vitals would they move around inside the pocket? You buy a carrier sized to the plates you will be using, so no, a plate should not move around inside the pocket if you have the correct size carrier. That being said, most of the higher-quality carriers are designed around SAPI sizes of plates and not steel, but from what I've read they seem to fit ok with steel. You can get ceramic plates in any of the standard SAPI sizes, just be prepared to pay more and be heavier for L and XL plates. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 9:26:16 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
All, I picked up an XL BAE RBAV recently. I have a set of XL level 3a soft inserts. I'm wanting to add a set of plates and I'm stuck on which ones. I know most arfcomers say to stay away from steel armor and only by ceramic. The XL RBAV pock is setup for 11x14 plates. I'm having a little trouble finding ceramic that size without driving the weight up. I have been looking at the 10x12 ceramic and it weighs 7.6 lbs. I have found some lightweight level 3 10x12 plates that are over a pound and a half lighter per plate. I can get 11x14 swimmers cut level 3 lightweight plates that are around 7.3 lbs. I'm really stuck on getting more protection, i.e. Level 4 vs more coverage 11x14 vs 10x12 for a lot less weight. Any suggestions? FYI, I'm over 6' and 250lbs. my AR500 set weighs exactly 1.5# heavier than my L4 ceramic.. but cost less than half.. bottom line, workout and wear the steel. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 9:30:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: my AR500 set weighs exactly 1.5# heavier than my L4 ceramic.. but cost less than half.. bottom line, workout and wear the steel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All, I picked up an XL BAE RBAV recently. I have a set of XL level 3a soft inserts. I'm wanting to add a set of plates and I'm stuck on which ones. I know most arfcomers say to stay away from steel armor and only by ceramic. The XL RBAV pock is setup for 11x14 plates. I'm having a little trouble finding ceramic that size without driving the weight up. I have been looking at the 10x12 ceramic and it weighs 7.6 lbs. I have found some lightweight level 3 10x12 plates that are over a pound and a half lighter per plate. I can get 11x14 swimmers cut level 3 lightweight plates that are around 7.3 lbs. I'm really stuck on getting more protection, i.e. Level 4 vs more coverage 11x14 vs 10x12 for a lot less weight. Any suggestions? FYI, I'm over 6' and 250lbs. my AR500 set weighs exactly 1.5# heavier than my L4 ceramic.. but cost less than half.. bottom line, workout and wear the steel. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 10:49:49 AM EDT
[#10]
My thing with steel is the frag. Shoot a steel target and watch the dust kick up. That bullet breaks apart with the same amount of force (distributed among the pieces) as it when it was traveling. Those pieces have to go somewhere, so they travel outwards to the sides. The pieces that go up have nothing but a single sheet of nylon between their point of impact and your carotids and jugulars.
Ceramics used in plates crumble when they get hit and the bullet comes to rest inside the plate, without frag coming off to hit you. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 10:55:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My thing with steel is the frag. Shoot a steel target and watch the dust kick up. That bullet breaks apart with the same amount of force (distributed among the pieces) as it when it was traveling. Those pieces have to go somewhere, so they travel outwards to the sides. The pieces that go up have nothing but a single sheet of nylon between their point of impact and your carotids and jugulars. Ceramics used in plates crumble when they get hit and the bullet comes to rest inside the plate, without frag coming off to hit you. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 12:41:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 12:50:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Steel level 3 won't. While steel level 3 generally performs well against M855 it fails against M193 traveling over 3000fps. It also fails against the new M855A1. Some steel level 3+ plates will stop M193, but they still can't stop M855A1. M855A1 isn't very common right now, usually just small quantities or raw projectiles on gunbroker. Check out The Wound Channel on youtube for some good M855A1 testing against hard armor and ballistic gel. It works extremely well. ETA: For a little more clarity, the original level III rating is for 6 rounds of 7.62x51 at 2750fps. 5.56 isn't part of the rating. While the III rating does stop many 5.56 projectiles it's not required for NIJ certification. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 4:12:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Steel level 3 won't. While steel level 3 generally performs well against M855 it fails against M193 traveling over 3000fps. It also fails against the new M855A1. Some steel level 3+ plates will stop M193, but they still can't stop M855A1. M855A1 isn't very common right now, usually just small quantities or raw projectiles on gunbroker. Check out The Wound Channel on youtube for some good M855A1 testing against hard armor and ballistic gel. It works extremely well. ETA: For a little more clarity, the original level III rating is for 6 rounds of 7.62x51 at 2750fps. 5.56 isn't part of the rating. While the III rating does stop many 5.56 projectiles it's not required for NIJ certification. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. M855A1 isn't very common right now, usually just small quantities or raw projectiles on gunbroker. Check out The Wound Channel on youtube for some good M855A1 testing against hard armor and ballistic gel. It works extremely well. ETA: For a little more clarity, the original level III rating is for 6 rounds of 7.62x51 at 2750fps. 5.56 isn't part of the rating. While the III rating does stop many 5.56 projectiles it's not required for NIJ certification. OP also has the level IIIA soft inserts. How would adding the level III steel affect the overall performance of the equipment? |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 4:14:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP also has the level IIIA soft inserts. How would adding the level III steel affect the overall performance of the equipment? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. M855A1 isn't very common right now, usually just small quantities or raw projectiles on gunbroker. Check out The Wound Channel on youtube for some good M855A1 testing against hard armor and ballistic gel. It works extremely well. ETA: For a little more clarity, the original level III rating is for 6 rounds of 7.62x51 at 2750fps. 5.56 isn't part of the rating. While the III rating does stop many 5.56 projectiles it's not required for NIJ certification. OP also has the level IIIA soft inserts. How would adding the level III steel affect the overall performance of the equipment? |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 4:30:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's still going to go through. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP also has the level IIIA soft inserts. How would adding the level III steel affect the overall performance of the equipment? Ouch. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 6:23:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Steel level 3 won't. While steel level 3 generally performs well against M855 it fails against M193 traveling over 3000fps. It also fails against the new M855A1. Some steel level 3+ plates will stop M193, but they still can't stop M855A1. M855A1 isn't very common right now, usually just small quantities or raw projectiles on gunbroker. Check out The Wound Channel on youtube for some good M855A1 testing against hard armor and ballistic gel. It works extremely well. ETA: For a little more clarity, the original level III rating is for 6 rounds of 7.62x51 at 2750fps. 5.56 isn't part of the rating. While the III rating does stop many 5.56 projectiles it's not required for NIJ certification. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. M855A1 isn't very common right now, usually just small quantities or raw projectiles on gunbroker. Check out The Wound Channel on youtube for some good M855A1 testing against hard armor and ballistic gel. It works extremely well. ETA: For a little more clarity, the original level III rating is for 6 rounds of 7.62x51 at 2750fps. 5.56 isn't part of the rating. While the III rating does stop many 5.56 projectiles it's not required for NIJ certification. Everyone has their own reason for owning or considering armor. If I were going to wear it every day, in the here and now, and had a chance of actually getting shot, then had to replace it, I'd go for the lighter ceramics. Personally, I can only ever imaging putting it on (outside of training) in a SHTF scenario, where longevity is more important to me than weight. The multi-hit and keep running capability of steel, when no replacement is available, appeals to me more than saving 2 or 3 pounds. YMMV. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 6:37:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates.
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Posted: 11/1/2016 7:23:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 7:35:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have some of that? Does anyone outside of the military at this point? I know the M80A1 is not available. I'd be interested in some if it's available. :) Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. The military does and that should be reason enough to get ceramic. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 7:51:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The military does and that should be reason enough to get ceramic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. YMMV. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 9:09:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
All, I picked up an XL BAE RBAV recently. I have a set of XL level 3a soft inserts. I'm wanting to add a set of plates and I'm stuck on which ones. I know most arfcomers say to stay away from steel armor and only by ceramic. The XL RBAV pock is setup for 11x14 plates. I'm having a little trouble finding ceramic that size without driving the weight up. I have been looking at the 10x12 ceramic and it weighs 7.6 lbs. I have found some lightweight level 3 10x12 plates that are over a pound and a half lighter per plate. I can get 11x14 swimmers cut level 3 lightweight plates that are around 7.3 lbs. I'm really stuck on getting more protection, i.e. Level 4 vs more coverage 11x14 vs 10x12 for a lot less weight. Any suggestions? FYI, I'm over 6' and 250lbs. my AR500 set weighs exactly 1.5# heavier than my L4 ceramic.. but cost less than half.. bottom line, workout and wear the steel. Quoted:
Quoted:
The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Staff/mods really needs to crackdown on people offering this kind of ignorant "advice" in tech forums all the time. |
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Posted: 11/1/2016 9:10:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps your theoretical scenario and mine differ, but I don't plan to have to defend against the military. If I do, it won't be the rifles I'm worried about, and armor won't save me. YMMV. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. YMMV. Going off of his user name, I think he is preparing for something more serious than the typical looting after a natural disaster or the like. 
In all seriousness, the A1 projectiles are for sale to hand loaders. Barring political winds, I think it is just a matter of time before Hornady, Nosler, or someone makes an M855A1 clone at a lower price than Liberty and the EPR price wars begin. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 1:21:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Nope. Go through it and make it look like Swiss cheese. Speed defeats steel. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 1:28:10 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Many places offer whey they call Level 3 +, which essentially says that meet all the NIJ Level 3 requirements and do a bit more. Spartan Armor AR550 and AR650 for instance, are rated Level 3 but their lit says they will also stop M193 (and 855). Those are offered in 11x14 as well, BTW. Everyone has their own reason for owning or considering armor. If I were going to wear it every day, in the here and now, and had a chance of actually getting shot, then had to replace it, I'd go for the lighter ceramics. Personally, I can only ever imaging putting it on (outside of training) in a SHTF scenario, where longevity is more important to me than weight. The multi-hit and keep running capability of steel, when no replacement is available, appeals to me more than saving 2 or 3 pounds. YMMV. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. M855A1 isn't very common right now, usually just small quantities or raw projectiles on gunbroker. Check out The Wound Channel on youtube for some good M855A1 testing against hard armor and ballistic gel. It works extremely well. ETA: For a little more clarity, the original level III rating is for 6 rounds of 7.62x51 at 2750fps. 5.56 isn't part of the rating. While the III rating does stop many 5.56 projectiles it's not required for NIJ certification. Everyone has their own reason for owning or considering armor. If I were going to wear it every day, in the here and now, and had a chance of actually getting shot, then had to replace it, I'd go for the lighter ceramics. Personally, I can only ever imaging putting it on (outside of training) in a SHTF scenario, where longevity is more important to me than weight. The multi-hit and keep running capability of steel, when no replacement is available, appeals to me more than saving 2 or 3 pounds. YMMV. Ceramics can take multiple hits as long as it isn't in the same spot and the chance of getting hit in the same spot is tiny. And everyone says two or three pounds is no big deal until you add it onto an already heavy rig. Just filling up my camelbak on my PC feels like I added 20 pounds and it's only 3 liters which is about 5 or 6 pounds. Shit even adding three loaded 30 round mags feels heavy. Just sayin. Don't kid yourself. Weight sucks. Count those ounces and save them wherever you can. I'm thinking if sellIng all of my current TT pouches and replacing them with TT fight light stuff because they are a third lighter. Did I mention weight sucks?
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Posted: 11/2/2016 1:30:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have some of that? Does anyone outside of the military at this point? I know the M80A1 is not available. I'd be interested in some if it's available. :) Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. You can get the parts and make the bullets yourself. Reference the video mentioned above. It's in the wild and traveling at your steel plates at a penetrating rate of speed.
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Posted: 11/2/2016 9:47:06 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have some of that? Does anyone outside of the military at this point? I know the M80A1 is not available. I'd be interested in some if it's available. :) Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. I've got some, not a lot and it's not really cheap when you find it. I haven't found any M80A1 yet, I should have picked up some projectiles when I saw them a few months back. More importantly, M855A1 and M80A1 are soon going to be the primary stockpile of the us government. Any scenario involving loss of US govt control means these will be some of the most common rounds available. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 10:13:39 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And everyone says two or three pounds is no big deal until you add it onto an already heavy rig. Just filling up my camelbak on my PC feels like I added 20 pounds and it's only 3 liters which is about 5 or 6 pounds. Shit even adding three loaded 30 round mags feels heavy. Just sayin. Don't kid yourself. Weight sucks. Count those ounces and save them wherever you can. I'm thinking if sellIng all of my current TT pouches and replacing them with TT fight light stuff because they are a third lighter. Did I mention weight sucks?
All of this. Buy the lightest armor you can afford and the lightest PC / pouches you can get away with. Even just switching from traditional MOLLE to something like helium whisper (blue force gear & velocity systems) made a noticeable difference for me. Crye smart suite pouches are a nice choice too. Sure it sucks dropping $50 for a pouch that does exactly the same thing as the legacy LBT / Eagle / SDS / Paraclete, but that weight reduction adds up. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 10:22:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All of this. Buy the lightest armor you can afford and the lightest PC / pouches you can get away with. Even just switching from traditional MOLLE to something like helium whisper (blue force gear & velocity systems) made a noticeable difference for me. Crye smart suite pouches are a nice choice too. Sure it sucks dropping $50 for a pouch that does exactly the same thing as the legacy LBT / Eagle / SDS / Paraclete, but that weight reduction adds up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And everyone says two or three pounds is no big deal until you add it onto an already heavy rig. Just filling up my camelbak on my PC feels like I added 20 pounds and it's only 3 liters which is about 5 or 6 pounds. Shit even adding three loaded 30 round mags feels heavy. Just sayin. Don't kid yourself. Weight sucks. Count those ounces and save them wherever you can. I'm thinking if sellIng all of my current TT pouches and replacing them with TT fight light stuff because they are a third lighter. Did I mention weight sucks?
All of this. Buy the lightest armor you can afford and the lightest PC / pouches you can get away with. Even just switching from traditional MOLLE to something like helium whisper (blue force gear & velocity systems) made a noticeable difference for me. Crye smart suite pouches are a nice choice too. Sure it sucks dropping $50 for a pouch that does exactly the same thing as the legacy LBT / Eagle / SDS / Paraclete, but that weight reduction adds up. Yup. I use to be like the OP. I thought I wouldn't be using my PC much and when I did it would be mainly around the property so who cares if it was heavy. Yeah, then I put that shit on lol. Then I started wearing it a lot. Now I know why guys who've worn this shit always harp on weight. Losing weight almost always helps and I can't imagine a scenario in which it hurts. I guess if you're a masochist? Lol. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Staff/mods really needs to crackdown on people offering this kind of ignorant "advice" in tech forums all the time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
All, I picked up an XL BAE RBAV recently. I have a set of XL level 3a soft inserts. I'm wanting to add a set of plates and I'm stuck on which ones. I know most arfcomers say to stay away from steel armor and only by ceramic. The XL RBAV pock is setup for 11x14 plates. I'm having a little trouble finding ceramic that size without driving the weight up. I have been looking at the 10x12 ceramic and it weighs 7.6 lbs. I have found some lightweight level 3 10x12 plates that are over a pound and a half lighter per plate. I can get 11x14 swimmers cut level 3 lightweight plates that are around 7.3 lbs. I'm really stuck on getting more protection, i.e. Level 4 vs more coverage 11x14 vs 10x12 for a lot less weight. Any suggestions? FYI, I'm over 6' and 250lbs. my AR500 set weighs exactly 1.5# heavier than my L4 ceramic.. but cost less than half.. bottom line, workout and wear the steel. Quoted:
Quoted:
The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Staff/mods really needs to crackdown on people offering this kind of ignorant "advice" in tech forums all the time. 
I've physically shot the 6"X6" side plates of my steel sets with Lake City 855 and 193, neither penetrated the plate. (the 308ap did - I didn't have any 855A1). I'm speaking from LITERAL experience with the products and equipment that I physically have tested. so before you walk around suggesting a mod "crack down" on the facts that I've posted here maybe you'd better expand your acute sense of reality. and I weighed the plates again last night, there's exactly 8oz difference in the Steel set and the Ceramic set. (the ceramic was over $400 with the PC, the steel set was about $210). with ceramic nearly twice the cost, the steel IS A BETTER OPTION for most people. if you get a set of ceramic that's under $200 and Level 4, go for it.. (SKD has some for sale right now, I believe) |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 12:11:21 PM EDT
[#31]
What barrel length did you shoot the M193 from? This is standard AR500 or III+ steel? Some of the III+ is decent stuff but again, can't take M855A1. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 12:16:25 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What barrel length did you shoot the M193 from? This is standard AR500 or III+ steel? Some of the III+ is decent stuff but again, can't take M855A1. 
It was some of AR500's early offerings before they started selling everything with spall protective coatings (I've had the steel plate set for about 6-7 years, I believe.) 18" Colt sporter II HBAR. Again, I didn't have any 855A1, so I can't talk with any certainty about it. I'm sure that it's being developed mainly to use against civilians opposing forces using body armor, though.. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 2:33:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Level III is Level III, that is correct. However, NIJ level III standard does not require the plates to stop M855, M193, M43, 7N6 or anything but the specified threat round, which is as follows. From Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor NIJ Standard-0101.06
Quote HistoryType III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147 gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). ( Level III Steel plates have issues stopping M193. Level III HDPE plates have issues stopping M855. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 3:15:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Level III is Level III, that is correct. However, NIJ level III standard does not require the plates to stop M855, M193, M43, 7N6 or anything but the specified threat round, which is as follows. From Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor NIJ Standard-0101.06 Level III Steel plates have issues stopping M193. Level III HDPE plates have issues stopping M855. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Level III is Level III, that is correct. However, NIJ level III standard does not require the plates to stop M855, M193, M43, 7N6 or anything but the specified threat round, which is as follows. From Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor NIJ Standard-0101.06 Type III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147 gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). ( Level III Steel plates have issues stopping M193. Level III HDPE plates have issues stopping M855. And Level III Ceramics have issues stopping neither. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 3:30:10 PM EDT
[#35]
I think that most of the people here are missing the point.
NIJ is a certification/testing specification, and as such, It exists solely for the purpose of denying that an untested piece of steel/poly/ceramic plate is capable of preventing penetrative damage by a specific round. NIJ doesn't certify that a 10" oak tree will prevent penetration from a round, it will stop just about any round shy of 50bmg, but that doesn't matter. there's testing in a laboratory, then there's real world use. I doubt any of us are as concerned about what a piece of paper says (compared to real, actual world testing) |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 3:56:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And Level III Ceramics have issues stopping neither. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Level III is Level III, that is correct. However, NIJ level III standard does not require the plates to stop M855, M193, M43, 7N6 or anything but the specified threat round, which is as follows. From Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor NIJ Standard-0101.06 Type III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147 gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). ( Level III Steel plates have issues stopping M193. Level III HDPE plates have issues stopping M855. And Level III Ceramics have issues stopping neither.  you're picking up what I'm putting down.
I'll say this - HDPE might not be able to stop M855, but it's light and positively / neutrally buoyant. So depending on your task, it may be worth considering for maritime stuff. You can get some high end thin steel plates for ultra low vis stuff where M43 is the known threat but those steel plates cost more than good ceramics, are only suited to one role, and still have the issue of spall / frag. And yea, they are thin, but advances in ceramics are starting to make them a very realistic option for low visibility stuff. And let's be honest, if you're tasked with either a maritime mission or low vis stuff, and you need to wear rifle rated armor, you're probably cool enough that you're being issued the right stuff. So yea, just say no to steel. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 4:47:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think that most of the people here are missing the point. NIJ is a certification/testing specification, and as such, It exists solely for the purpose of denying that an untested piece of steel/poly/ceramic plate is capable of preventing penetrative damage by a specific round. NIJ doesn't certify that a 10" oak tree will prevent penetration from a round, it will stop just about any round shy of 50bmg, but that doesn't matter. there's testing in a laboratory, then there's real world use. I doubt any of us are as concerned about what a piece of paper says (compared to real, actual world testing) Speaking just for myself, it's comforting to know that the plates I bought have been tested under controlled circumstances, and those tests show that it will meet the requirements to be called Level IV reliably. There are probably plenty of plates that do not hold the NIJ certification that will also meet Level IV, but without that testing as backup, the end user doesn't know if they're made of good stuff, or recycled Hyundai fenders. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 8:23:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've physically shot the 6"X6" side plates of my steel sets with Lake City 855 and 193, neither penetrated the plate. (the 308ap did - I didn't have any 855A1). I'm speaking from LITERAL experience with the products and equipment that I physically have tested. so before you walk around suggesting a mod "crack down" on the facts that I've posted here maybe you'd better expand your acute sense of reality. and I weighed the plates again last night, there's exactly 8oz difference in the Steel set and the Ceramic set. (the ceramic was over $400 with the PC, the steel set was about $210). with ceramic nearly twice the cost, the steel IS A BETTER OPTION for most people. if you get a set of ceramic that's under $200 and Level 4, go for it.. (SKD has some for sale right now, I believe) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
my AR500 set weighs exactly 1.5# heavier than my L4 ceramic.. but cost less than half.. bottom line, workout and wear the steel. Quoted:
Quoted:
The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Staff/mods really needs to crackdown on people offering this kind of ignorant "advice" in tech forums all the time.
I've physically shot the 6"X6" side plates of my steel sets with Lake City 855 and 193, neither penetrated the plate. (the 308ap did - I didn't have any 855A1). I'm speaking from LITERAL experience with the products and equipment that I physically have tested. so before you walk around suggesting a mod "crack down" on the facts that I've posted here maybe you'd better expand your acute sense of reality. and I weighed the plates again last night, there's exactly 8oz difference in the Steel set and the Ceramic set. (the ceramic was over $400 with the PC, the steel set was about $210). with ceramic nearly twice the cost, the steel IS A BETTER OPTION for most people. if you get a set of ceramic that's under $200 and Level 4, go for it.. (SKD has some for sale right now, I believe) The point is why take the chance when there is plenty of evidence to show there are 5.56 rounds that can defeat steel. Especially when ceramic is lighter and not that much more expensive. And could you please break down that $210? What PC? What cut? Because yeah, if you get regular plates with no curve, no spall protection, no build up, then sure it'll be dirt cheap but that's not fair to compare it to ceramic. I went through this with AR500armor. After I looked at level3+, with the curves and the build up and spall protection it's around $20 cheaper a plate than their ceramics. And with weight what size are you comparing? The super ultra swimmers bib cut to regular ceramics? Because there is no way two compatible sized plates are only 8oz different. I've actually picked them up in AR500armors show room. They are not even close to weighing the same. I dunno. Why take a chance? Especially for what equates to peanuts. It's not like it's thousands. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 9:37:57 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you're picking up what I'm putting down.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Level III is Level III, that is correct. However, NIJ level III standard does not require the plates to stop M855, M193, M43, 7N6 or anything but the specified threat round, which is as follows. From Ballistic Resistance of Body Armor NIJ Standard-0101.06 Type III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147 gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). ( Level III Steel plates have issues stopping M193. Level III HDPE plates have issues stopping M855. And Level III Ceramics have issues stopping neither. you're picking up what I'm putting down.Ceramic armor master race checking in. |
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Posted: 11/2/2016 11:44:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've got some, not a lot and it's not really cheap when you find it. I haven't found any M80A1 yet, I should have picked up some projectiles when I saw them a few months back. More importantly, M855A1 and M80A1 are soon going to be the primary stockpile of the us government. Any scenario involving loss of US govt control means these will be some of the most common rounds available. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. More importantly, M855A1 and M80A1 are soon going to be the primary stockpile of the us government. Any scenario involving loss of US govt control means these will be some of the most common rounds available. you're going to need a leve IV to stop M80A1 level III+ will stop M855A1, but it seems to only be the old M855A1, or at velocities under 3000 fps Here was the new style M855A1 at slightly under 3K failing on an AR680 plate, which is a little less resilient than the AR500A III+ plate; |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 10:22:13 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The point is why take the chance when there is plenty of evidence to show there are 5.56 rounds that can defeat steel. Especially when ceramic is lighter and not that much more expensive. And could you please break down that $210? What PC? What cut? Because yeah, if you get regular plates with no curve, no spall protection, no build up, then sure it'll be dirt cheap but that's not fair to compare it to ceramic. I went through this with AR500armor. After I looked at level3+, with the curves and the build up and spall protection it's around $20 cheaper a plate than their ceramics. And with weight what size are you comparing? The super ultra swimmers bib cut to regular ceramics? Because there is no way two compatible sized plates are only 8oz different. I've actually picked them up in AR500armors show room. They are not even close to weighing the same. I dunno. Why take a chance? Especially for what equates to peanuts. It's not like it's thousands. As I said, I've had them for 6-7 years, things have changed, but I compared: STEEL- 10X12 (rough dims) single curve (vertical axis) shooters cut (both corners) purchased for $165, they sit in a Shellback Banshee PC I purchased NWT on Ebay for $50 CERAMIC- SKD TAC's swimmers cut plates L4 that were offered in the last group buy a couple months ago (included a paraclete SOHPC carrier and cummerbund) group buy was $400 (it was a hell of a deal, since SKD's regular price on that setup was north of $560) weight comparison was just the front/rear plates, nothing else was included as far as size of plates, the steel cover MUCH MORE than the ceramics in question. make no mistake, I'm not saying that ceramic isn't worth the additional cost. I'm saying that you dont have to get ceramic to be protected and for people on a budget, it's silly to save up almost twice as long for ceramic when you can have steel that will get you 90% of the way there. this especially applies when you're outfitting 4-5 people (and not just yourself). |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 10:46:19 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: you're going to need a leve IV to stop M80A1  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tix1Z_kvNowlevel III+ will stop M855A1, but it seems to only be the old M855A1, or at velocities under 3000 fps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mggUX2DJaJIHere was the new style M855A1 at slightly under 3K failing on an AR680 plate, which is a little less resilient than the AR500A III+ plate; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvA-QBTbN3sQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. More importantly, M855A1 and M80A1 are soon going to be the primary stockpile of the us government. Any scenario involving loss of US govt control means these will be some of the most common rounds available. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tix1Z_kvNowlevel III+ will stop M855A1, but it seems to only be the old M855A1, or at velocities under 3000 fps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mggUX2DJaJIHere was the new style M855A1 at slightly under 3K failing on an AR680 plate, which is a little less resilient than the AR500A III+ plate; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvA-QBTbN3sI can't watch the videos where I'm at. Looking at the image for the M855A1 video I'm not seeing M855A1. Did they shoot it with M855A1 or something else? It should look like this:  |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 10:47:42 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I said, I've had them for 6-7 years, things have changed, but I compared: STEEL- 10X12 (rough dims) single curve (vertical axis) shooters cut (both corners) purchased for $165, they sit in a Shellback Banshee PC I purchased NWT on Ebay for $50 CERAMIC- SKD TAC's swimmers cut plates L4 that were offered in the last group buy a couple months ago (included a paraclete SOHPC carrier and cummerbund) group buy was $400 (it was a hell of a deal, since SKD's regular price on that setup was north of $560) weight comparison was just the front/rear plates, nothing else was included as far as size of plates, the steel cover MUCH MORE than the ceramics in question. make no mistake, I'm not saying that ceramic isn't worth the additional cost. I'm saying that you dont have to get ceramic to be protected and for people on a budget, it's silly to save up almost twice as long for ceramic when you can have steel that will get you 90% of the way there. this especially applies when you're outfitting 4-5 people (and not just yourself). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The point is why take the chance when there is plenty of evidence to show there are 5.56 rounds that can defeat steel. Especially when ceramic is lighter and not that much more expensive. And could you please break down that $210? What PC? What cut? Because yeah, if you get regular plates with no curve, no spall protection, no build up, then sure it'll be dirt cheap but that's not fair to compare it to ceramic. I went through this with AR500armor. After I looked at level3+, with the curves and the build up and spall protection it's around $20 cheaper a plate than their ceramics. And with weight what size are you comparing? The super ultra swimmers bib cut to regular ceramics? Because there is no way two compatible sized plates are only 8oz different. I've actually picked them up in AR500armors show room. They are not even close to weighing the same. I dunno. Why take a chance? Especially for what equates to peanuts. It's not like it's thousands. As I said, I've had them for 6-7 years, things have changed, but I compared: STEEL- 10X12 (rough dims) single curve (vertical axis) shooters cut (both corners) purchased for $165, they sit in a Shellback Banshee PC I purchased NWT on Ebay for $50 CERAMIC- SKD TAC's swimmers cut plates L4 that were offered in the last group buy a couple months ago (included a paraclete SOHPC carrier and cummerbund) group buy was $400 (it was a hell of a deal, since SKD's regular price on that setup was north of $560) weight comparison was just the front/rear plates, nothing else was included as far as size of plates, the steel cover MUCH MORE than the ceramics in question. make no mistake, I'm not saying that ceramic isn't worth the additional cost. I'm saying that you dont have to get ceramic to be protected and for people on a budget, it's silly to save up almost twice as long for ceramic when you can have steel that will get you 90% of the way there. this especially applies when you're outfitting 4-5 people (and not just yourself). |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 2:42:56 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't watch the videos where I'm at. Looking at the image for the M855A1 video I'm not seeing M855A1. Did they shoot it with M855A1 or something else? It should look like this: http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=93358 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Who is going to be shooting at you multiple times? The new standard issue ammunition of the Army puts a hole in those III+ plates. Again, as I said in my post, I can only see wearing this stuff for SHTF outside of training - in my situation. As such, when there is no resupply/replacement in the future, it could be years before being shot at twice, but that's still "multiple times." I'll take the heavier steel over the crumbled pieces of ceramic I won't be able to replace. More importantly, M855A1 and M80A1 are soon going to be the primary stockpile of the us government. Any scenario involving loss of US govt control means these will be some of the most common rounds available. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tix1Z_kvNowlevel III+ will stop M855A1, but it seems to only be the old M855A1, or at velocities under 3000 fps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mggUX2DJaJIHere was the new style M855A1 at slightly under 3K failing on an AR680 plate, which is a little less resilient than the AR500A III+ plate; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvA-QBTbN3shttp://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=93358 |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 2:52:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My thing with steel is the frag. Shoot a steel target and watch the dust kick up. That bullet breaks apart with the same amount of force (distributed among the pieces) as it when it was traveling. Those pieces have to go somewhere, so they travel outwards to the sides. The pieces that go up have nothing but a single sheet of nylon between their point of impact and your carotids and jugulars. Ceramics used in plates crumble when they get hit and the bullet comes to rest inside the plate, without frag coming off to hit you. |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 2:54:02 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The frag from a few rounds can be effectively contained with a spall coating like most companies offer. They just have poor performance against M193 and newer rounds like M855A1. I'm confused.. level 3 is level 3. unless you're looking for protection against .308 AP rounds, Level III will defend against 193 & 855. So all level III plates will in fact stop M80 (Level III is Level III), but when you exceed the velocity rating of the plate all bets are off. |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 2:57:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ceramics can take multiple hits as long as it isn't in the same spot and the chance of getting hit in the same spot is tiny. And everyone says two or three pounds is no big deal until you add it onto an already heavy rig. Just filling up my camelbak on my PC feels like I added 20 pounds and it's only 3 liters which is about 5 or 6 pounds. Shit even adding three loaded 30 round mags feels heavy. Just sayin. Don't kid yourself. Weight sucks. Count those ounces and save them wherever you can. I'm thinking if sellIng all of my current TT pouches and replacing them with TT fight light stuff because they are a third lighter. Did I mention weight sucks? It's that if the time comes for civilians like us to be in gun fights, there may not be a place to buy replacement armor. You armor may need to last you weeks/months/years and multiple engagements, that is a bigger consideration than someone hitting you twice within a couple inches with 7.62x39 (which can in fact go through a Level IV plate). |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 3:09:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are two M855A1 versions. original bismuth core, and the current copper core. I have not validated the tip hardness on the bismuth core models, which is what I used in two of the tests above. I have used the latest model on an AR680 plate and at under 3K fps it didn't penetrate at 45'. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: SNIP |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 3:19:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, I think 15M is what the .gov documentation shows testing as being done at. That was on 1/4" RHA IIRC. I know The Wound Channel has a AR680 plate that fails against M855A1, I don't recall what they fired it from, I'll have to go back and watch the video again. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: SNIP AR500's Level III+ stopped M193 from a 22" and M855A1 from a 16", but not M855A1 from a 20". |
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Posted: 11/3/2016 6:06:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The reason that makes sense to me that someone would want a plate that holds up to multiple hits well isn't that you might get shot in the same spot twice in a row, or even in a single gunfight. It's that if the time comes for civilians like us to be in gun fights, there may not be a place to buy replacement armor. You armor may need to last you weeks/months/years and multiple engagements, that is a bigger consideration than someone hitting you twice within a couple inches with 7.62x39 (which can in fact go through a Level IV plate). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ceramics can take multiple hits as long as it isn't in the same spot and the chance of getting hit in the same spot is tiny. And everyone says two or three pounds is no big deal until you add it onto an already heavy rig. Just filling up my camelbak on my PC feels like I added 20 pounds and it's only 3 liters which is about 5 or 6 pounds. Shit even adding three loaded 30 round mags feels heavy. Just sayin. Don't kid yourself. Weight sucks. Count those ounces and save them wherever you can. I'm thinking if sellIng all of my current TT pouches and replacing them with TT fight light stuff because they are a third lighter. Did I mention weight sucks?
It's that if the time comes for civilians like us to be in gun fights, there may not be a place to buy replacement armor. You armor may need to last you weeks/months/years and multiple engagements, that is a bigger consideration than someone hitting you twice within a couple inches with 7.62x39 (which can in fact go through a Level IV plate). True but the anti spall on the steel wears too so you're sorta in the same boat. At least from what I've seen. You probably know more about it than me though. And the videos I saw it took four hits from an AK, short range, in the same location, with the plate already hit in another location to get through the ceramic plate. I'm not saying you're wrong but I don't think people realize just how tough they are. YMMV of course. Granted, I've only seen two different vids but both times it took four hits stacked right on to finally poke through. I think we can all agree if we are getting into multiple engagements over an extended period of time as civilians we are in some deep shit lol. I finally had to be honest with myself when I was buying ammo. I was out of control worrying about running out during some SHTF scenario and finally it dawned on me that I'm a pretty out if shape couch commando. I'm pretty sure I'll get smoked long before I run out if anything I have. Hell, with my luck I'll get a paper cut and die from the impending infection lol And trust me, I wrestled with that very same point when I was deciding on what plates to buy. Truth be told I might buy a set of steel on Black Friday just in case. Hell, if they are cheap enough I might buy a set of steel and another set of ceramics. |
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