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Posted: 7/18/2016 12:07:08 AM EDT
So my load out is just about done. It's a SHTF load out.

One of the last things I'm looking at a radio. Namely a baofeng uv-5r but I have some questions.

From my cursory research it seems like if I get this I can only use it to listen unless I get a license. And I guess there are different licenses. Even if I get one where people can transmit under my license, and we set up a block of channels, we can use them but we have to watch what we say, can't swear, et cetera. Not that I care about swearing but it all seems like such a pain in the ass.

Not to mention, it seems like when I try to ask a question or two on the related forums the guys are mostly douche bags who start off immediately almost yelling at you telling you what you can't do and how you'll probably mess up et cetera.

Do guys just get these, set them aside, and just say fuck it and use them if it's really SHTF?

Is there another alternative?
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 12:51:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Yup you can listen where ever you want. These radios are for ham use so a technician class license is required to transmit within the frequencies that license allows you to.

The radio is "type accepted" by the FCC only for certain uses. Using it on FRS frequencies, for example, is possible technically but not legally according to the FCC since the radio doesn't meet certain rules and parameters.

The arfcom ham forum is usually helpful: https://www.ar15.com/forums/f_10/22_Ham_Radios.html

Would recommend a GMRS license and equipment as it will get you radios with good range and your immediate family is covered for a flat fee. Whereas with ham radio everyone who wants to transmit would need their own separate license which requires a test.

I don't recall if beofengs can be used on GMRS or not.
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 1:28:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Radio guys get pissy because the baofeng price point opened their playground up to a bunch of retards with no intention of being licensed. People spend a lot of time and energy practicing to handle weather and emergency traffic, which A. Is useless if you can't locate/communicate with them B. Hurtful to the process if you interfere C. Pointless if you aren't familiar with the limits of your radio, which comes from experience being licensed.

Spending a week studying and $15 for the test opens you up to a big chunk of local preparedness minded people. It's worth it.

That being said: Friends and family won't share your interest, so if you plan on some sort of communication network, plan on supplying the radios.

Make a list of local popular frequencies, find times of net events, main frequencies and backups you will use, and know how to dummy proof your radios before you hand them out.

Link Posted: 7/18/2016 5:28:22 AM EDT
[#3]
To your question, I seriously doubt in a SHTF situation some khaki pant wearing FCC official is coming to get you ... or anyone else for that matter.
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 7:20:29 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
It's a SHTF load out.

One of the last things I'm looking at a radio. Namely a baofeng uv-5r
View Quote


If you buy a box of junk, store it away and HOPE it works or think you can make it work you are mistaken. You are playing at prepping and not serious about taking care of your family or yourself.

---

What do I think? They are a band aid on a severe bleeder, in medical speak. They only make you think you have a radio. The best things about them is they are basically disposable.
View Quote

(c) http://quietsurvivalist.com/radio-communication-preppers/

Quoted:
Not to mention, it seems like when I try to ask a question or two on the related forums the guys are mostly douche bags who start off immediately almost yelling at you telling you what you can't do and how you'll probably mess up et cetera.
View Quote

Quoted:
To your question, I seriously doubt in a SHTF situation some khaki pant wearing FCC official is coming to get you ... or anyone else for that matter.
View Quote


You MUST train with your radio before the SHTF. If you have no practice, radio is as useless as your rifle if you don't go to the range with it. If you train now illegally, you'll be subject of special interest from FCC. So, advice is - train now legally. Maybe go FRS/MURS, maybe go ham (it's not expensive and it' real fun).

73! UB3Gxx.
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 8:19:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To your question, I seriously doubt in a SHTF situation some khaki pant wearing FCC official is coming to get you ... or anyone else for that matter.
View Quote




If that's the first time you're using it you'll be sorely disappointed when you try and can't talk to anyone because you don't know how to use it. In a SHTF situation it isn't the best time to break out the manual either.


Link Posted: 7/18/2016 10:36:13 AM EDT
[#6]
Im confused.  Why is it you can only use the uv-5r for listening? It can be tuned for FRS,  MURS,  GMRS and a few ham frequencies.  Now out of that list you can use the MURS frequencies on low power (anything below 2 watts)  and be legal.  If the SHTF then feel free to crank it up to high power (5w) i suppose.
The license for using GMRS is supposedly fairly cheap and easy to acquire.  Id say between those two bands you should be set unless you want to go for your ham license and really do some learnin.

ETA: this article is worth reading
http://www.itstactical.com/digicom/comms/ultimate-radio-communication-guide-what-to-look-for-in-a-handheld-transceiver/
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 11:51:25 AM EDT
[#7]
Yeah....got it. Makes total sense cheap radios come out and a bunch of tards muck it up for everyone. Lol. I guess I'd be pissy too lol

Ok, you guys are awesome. This is way better than anything I got from radio forums.

And it makes total sense that I probably wouldn't have the first clue if I just bought the radio, didn't train with it, and expected to be able to use it if SHTF.

Looks like I'll look into getting my license. I don't have too much family around. My intent was just having some sort of way of gathering information on what's going on around me if popular communication failed and maybe communicate during an emergency if needed.



To be honest I stumbled on the subject because I was looking at a list of recommended items for a carbine  class. I wasn't planning on taking the class, honestly, I was more interested in why tons of people bagged on the instructor and class. It was the JY class where it seems like 100 students storm a building after a dude says "execute" into his radio lol.

I've yet to decide what class I want to take I live in AZ and I want to find a good fit for me. I don't want a Rambo class that teaches me nothing but I also don't need to be lectured on safety for 90% of the class.

I found it very interesting watching the video of the guy take out that cop I'm Dallas. It was beyond obvious the guy had trained. He didn't sit still, he moved. The cop didn't look like he had a chance. I felt bad for the cop.
Mao I don't want that to be me if I'm pressed into using my weapon. So I'm looking for solid training, tactics, and practice.   Sorry to go off course. It's how I got on the radio kick.
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 5:57:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Im confused.  Why is it you can only use the uv-5r for listening? It can be tuned for FRS,  MURS,  GMRS and a few ham frequencies.  Now out of that list you can use the MURS frequencies on low power (anything below 2 watts)  and be legal.  If the SHTF then feel free to crank it up to high power (5w) i suppose.
The license for using GMRS is supposedly fairly cheap and easy to acquire.  Id say between those two bands you should be set unless you want to go for your ham license and really do some learnin.

ETA: this article is worth reading
http://www.itstactical.com/digicom/comms/ultimate-radio-communication-guide-what-to-look-for-in-a-handheld-transceiver/
View Quote



The radio is not type accepted for those services

Link Posted: 7/18/2016 7:28:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Im confused.  Why is it you can only use the uv-5r for listening? It can be tuned for FRS,  MURS,  GMRS and a few ham frequencies.  Now out of that list you can use the MURS frequencies on low power (anything below 2 watts)  and be legal.  If the SHTF then feel free to crank it up to high power (5w) i suppose.
The license for using GMRS is supposedly fairly cheap and easy to acquire.  Id say between those two bands you should be set unless you want to go for your ham license and really do some learnin.

ETA: this article is worth reading
http://www.itstactical.com/digicom/comms/ultimate-radio-communication-guide-what-to-look-for-in-a-handheld-transceiver/
View Quote



From what I've read, and I could be misremembering, it can run all of the but the FCC doesn't recognize it officially ally so it could be the ultimate radio but technically it's non compliant.

Or something to that effect.
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 8:31:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



From what I've read, and I could be misremembering, it can run all of the but the FCC doesn't recognize it officially ally so it could be the ultimate radio but technically it's non compliant.

Or something to that effect.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Im confused.  Why is it you can only use the uv-5r for listening? It can be tuned for FRS,  MURS,  GMRS and a few ham frequencies.  Now out of that list you can use the MURS frequencies on low power (anything below 2 watts)  and be legal.  If the SHTF then feel free to crank it up to high power (5w) i suppose.
The license for using GMRS is supposedly fairly cheap and easy to acquire.  Id say between those two bands you should be set unless you want to go for your ham license and really do some learnin.

ETA: this article is worth reading
http://www.itstactical.com/digicom/comms/ultimate-radio-communication-guide-what-to-look-for-in-a-handheld-transceiver/



From what I've read, and I could be misremembering, it can run all of the but the FCC doesn't recognize it officially ally so it could be the ultimate radio but technically it's non compliant.

Or something to that effect.


The radios are "open" and can receive AND transmit on a wide range of frequencies.  When the "big three" manufacture a radio they usually install software that will prevent it from transmitting on "non HAM" frequencies.  Example my Yeasu FT-90R in my Jeep will only give you an "err" message if you try to key up on MURS/FRS/GMRS ect.  But you can listen in to those frequencies all day (as well as many other bands).  Every Chinese radio I've handled so far is "open" and has the capability to transmit on those frequencies if you don't manually go in to block them out via software.  For example on all of my chinese HTs I've program in NOAA stations and turned off the ability to Transmit so me or someone else doesn't accidently xmit.

Quoted:
To your question, I seriously doubt in a SHTF situation some khaki pant wearing FCC official is coming to get you ... or anyone else for that matter.



Unless you're being really stupid with it they aren't coming for you now either.
Link Posted: 7/18/2016 9:33:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To be honest I stumbled on the subject because I was looking at a list of recommended items for a carbine  class. I wasn't planning on taking the class, honestly, I was more interested in why tons of people bagged on the instructor and class. It was the JY class where it seems like 100 students storm a building after a dude says "execute" into his radio lol.

I've yet to decide what class I want to take I live in AZ and I want to find a good fit for me. I don't want a Rambo class that teaches me nothing but I also don't need to be lectured on safety for 90% of the class.

I found it very interesting watching the video of the guy take out that cop I'm Dallas. It was beyond obvious the guy had trained. He didn't sit still, he moved. The cop didn't look like he had a chance. I felt bad for the cop.
Mao I don't want that to be me if I'm pressed into using my weapon. So I'm looking for solid training, tactics, and practice.   Sorry to go off course. It's how I got on the radio kick.
View Quote


A two way radio was a recommended item for a carbine class?  That would be an immediate tip off it was sketchy, to me at least.  If you had a class with 10 students you would be lucky to have 2 that had their radios set up correctly to even communicate with each other.

The baofengs are ok for what they are, but you are getting what you pay for.  Not waterproof, cheap housing, missing some features I want in a handheld that is going with battle rattle.  I admit I have a couple and they work fine for what they were designed for, but my Yeasu goes on my PC.  For the price of a quality Japanese walkie talkie I can buy 4+ UV-5r's, so you have to decide what is important to you.

The features I want that aren't included on the baofengs (yet) is AM aircraft reception and more bands for both RX and TX.  GPS would be nice too as a backup but not really necessary.  Others may not need or want those features, but they are nice to have for information gathering.

Link Posted: 7/18/2016 10:31:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


A two way radio was a recommended item for a carbine class?  That would be an immediate tip off it was sketchy, to me at least.  If you had a class with 10 students you would be lucky to have 2 that had their radios set up correctly to even communicate with each other.

The baofengs are ok for what they are, but you are getting what you pay for.  Not waterproof, cheap housing, missing some features I want in a handheld that is going with battle rattle.  I admit I have a couple and they work fine for what they were designed for, but my Yeasu goes on my PC.  For the price of a quality Japanese walkie talkie I can buy 4+ UV-5r's, so you have to decide what is important to you.

The features I want that aren't included on the baofengs (yet) is AM aircraft reception and more bands for both RX and TX.  GPS would be nice too as a backup but not really necessary.  Others may not need or want those features, but they are nice to have for information gathering.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
To be honest I stumbled on the subject because I was looking at a list of recommended items for a carbine  class. I wasn't planning on taking the class, honestly, I was more interested in why tons of people bagged on the instructor and class. It was the JY class where it seems like 100 students storm a building after a dude says "execute" into his radio lol.

I've yet to decide what class I want to take I live in AZ and I want to find a good fit for me. I don't want a Rambo class that teaches me nothing but I also don't need to be lectured on safety for 90% of the class.

I found it very interesting watching the video of the guy take out that cop I'm Dallas. It was beyond obvious the guy had trained. He didn't sit still, he moved. The cop didn't look like he had a chance. I felt bad for the cop.
Mao I don't want that to be me if I'm pressed into using my weapon. So I'm looking for solid training, tactics, and practice.   Sorry to go off course. It's how I got on the radio kick.


A two way radio was a recommended item for a carbine class?  That would be an immediate tip off it was sketchy, to me at least.  If you had a class with 10 students you would be lucky to have 2 that had their radios set up correctly to even communicate with each other.

The baofengs are ok for what they are, but you are getting what you pay for.  Not waterproof, cheap housing, missing some features I want in a handheld that is going with battle rattle.  I admit I have a couple and they work fine for what they were designed for, but my Yeasu goes on my PC.  For the price of a quality Japanese walkie talkie I can buy 4+ UV-5r's, so you have to decide what is important to you.

The features I want that aren't included on the baofengs (yet) is AM aircraft reception and more bands for both RX and TX.  GPS would be nice too as a backup but not really necessary.  Others may not need or want those features, but they are nice to have for information gathering.




Last time I was on the website for yeagers classes he has a list of recommended items with links to the items on Amazon.  Like I mentioned I was just check it out and it seems like most people.....frown.....upon his classes.

Oh, I found it
Linky link
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 12:21:56 AM EDT
[#13]
First off, don't buy a UV-5R, they suck even for a Baofeng.  Get the UV-5B or UV-6B.  They have fewer accessories but are a much better radio, and you won't have to replace the antenna as your first accessory.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Ok, you guys are awesome. This is way better than anything I got from radio forums.
View Quote

I hate to break it to you, but the most useful information you've gotten here has been from frequent posters in AR15's ham radio forum.  Unless you're talking about radio forums that are not part of AR15.com.  In that case, yeah, we understand.  Sorry you went through that.

Yes, many of us are strong advocates for following the law.  That's partially due to the CoC here, but also because many of us have listened to CB radio and know what an unregulated radio service degenerates into.  It has been a long time since I've seen anyone act (much) like a douche to a non-licensed individual who has come to the ham forum looking for information.

If anything, many of us offer encouragement to get your license.  More licensees mean more people using the existing spectrum.  This means that the FCC is less likely to take it away from us and auction it off to someone else.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 2:08:56 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
First off, don't buy a UV-5R, they suck even for a Baofeng.  Get the UV-5B or UV-6B.  They have fewer accessories but are a much better radio, and you won't have to replace the antenna as your first accessory.


I hate to break it to you, but the most useful information you've gotten here has been from frequent posters in AR15's ham radio forum.  Unless you're talking about radio forums that are not part of AR15.com.  In that case, yeah, we understand.  Sorry you went through that.

Yes, many of us are strong advocates for following the law.  That's partially due to the CoC here, but also because many of us have listened to CB radio and know what an unregulated radio service degenerates into.  It has been a long time since I've seen anyone act (much) like a douche to a non-licensed individual who has come to the ham forum looking for information.

If anything, many of us offer encouragement to get your license.  More licensees mean more people using the existing spectrum.  This means that the FCC is less likely to take it away from us and auction it off to someone else.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
First off, don't buy a UV-5R, they suck even for a Baofeng.  Get the UV-5B or UV-6B.  They have fewer accessories but are a much better radio, and you won't have to replace the antenna as your first accessory.

Quoted:
Ok, you guys are awesome. This is way better than anything I got from radio forums.

I hate to break it to you, but the most useful information you've gotten here has been from frequent posters in AR15's ham radio forum.  Unless you're talking about radio forums that are not part of AR15.com.  In that case, yeah, we understand.  Sorry you went through that.

Yes, many of us are strong advocates for following the law.  That's partially due to the CoC here, but also because many of us have listened to CB radio and know what an unregulated radio service degenerates into.  It has been a long time since I've seen anyone act (much) like a douche to a non-licensed individual who has come to the ham forum looking for information.

If anything, many of us offer encouragement to get your license.  More licensees mean more people using the existing spectrum.  This means that the FCC is less likely to take it away from us and auction it off to someone else.


Thank you for the tip on the radio, like I said I'm almost completely ignorant so in for from guys like you is invaluable to me

And I should have been more clear. My fault. I wasn't referring to the ham radio forum here. I meant random forums Google offered up to me when I typed in various radio related terms.

I Definitiy have no problem doing it correctly. I was just curious to see if the guys with radio and comms set ups all did it correctly or just said Fuck it.

The other reason, which is mostly just what I've read, that I'm hesitant to go to a radio forum that's outside of this one is I've seen guys say a lot of the radio guys don't share our outlook on guns and prepping.

I have no idea if that's true or not. Just what I've seen here and there in my limited search thus far.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 2:20:53 AM EDT
[#15]
What exactly do you think it will do for you? Who out what are you trying to communicate with? Are you monitoring or talking? Where (frequency range) are your local emergency services located in your AO? Are they conventional vhf or uhf? Are they P25 trunked or some other protocol?

If you want to talk to others what's your distance? Will you be in a group or spread out, neighborhood, across town, across the county?

Lots of questions and each situation is different.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 11:41:15 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
What exactly do you think it will do for you? Who out what are you trying to communicate with? Are you monitoring or talking? Where (frequency range) are your local emergency services located in your AO? Are they conventional vhf or uhf? Are they P25 trunked or some other protocol?

If you want to talk to others what's your distance? Will you be in a group or spread out, neighborhood, across town, across the county?

Lots of questions and each situation is different.
View Quote



All good questions. Maybe it'll turn out that o don't need one.

To be honest I'm not quite sure what it'll do for me. Outside of the ability to communitcate I guess. Closest family is an hour away. Outside of them I don't have a group of guys I'm affiliated with, as of right now, I'd use it for.

As of right now, if SHTF, I'd be monitoring. I guess if I heard something really important and needed to talk it would be nice to be able to. I'm not sure the freqs of the local services. I'm guessing I could find that out easily enough.  

Basically, as of right now, it's more of an insurance policy. A way of listening and maybe reaching out if something really important came up during a really big emergency.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 6:38:28 PM EDT
[#17]
I got my tech ticket to be
able to practice comms
with my buddies, but they
haven't gotten their tickets.

I have however, made a new
group of friends by talking on
a local 2 meter repeater.

I suggest to the op that you
get your ticket, so you can
learn how to use the 5R's
properly, and thus be able
to converse with the people
who will have good info, if
needed. You will have made
friends with them, by then.
I have donated cash to a
few projects for the club, to
make in roads, without having
to be obligated to meetings, etc,
but they have welcomed into the
fold.

I use primarily UV5R's, but I
have a Wouxun, and a Icom
mobile set up as a base, at home.

The UV5R's are primarily used in
my cars with 1/4 wave mag mounts
to talk on the repeater, in a wide
area of my local valley ao.

I also use my 5R's when 4 wheeling,
but my brother has his ticket, so we
use 2 meters for that, as well.

Good radio's, and for the money,
they are disposable.

John
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 6:44:48 PM EDT
[#18]
If you have a smart phone look for the Repeater Book app, it will show local freq's and repeaters for your area. I'm sure they are available on the web, as well.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 8:37:09 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you have a smart phone look for the Repeater Book app, it will show local freq's and repeaters for your area. I'm sure they are available on the web, as well.
View Quote


This^^^^^^
and radioreference.com will give you all the EMS / FIRE Police and other pertinent freqs for your area.
Actually, in all candidness, the UV5Rs are shockingly capable radios for the low initial cost.
Good luck! .... and get your tech license; It's well worth it.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 10:25:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Riddle me this, I wasn't a grunt in the USMC - I was a freaking Comm Tech. And I don't mean the battalion kind of Comm Tech, I was the superbad MATCU kind, with almost a year-long MOS school . I hated every minute I was in because of that MOS, and I don't know shit about what kind of radio to get for SHTF, or even the kind of camping my family and I want to do.

I'd like one that is:

1.  Small, something that fits in a Molle Mbitr pouch or so, but not so small that it sacrifices battery power and antenna compatibility

2.  Easily programmable - which means not requiring a laptop

3.  Moderately easy to encrypt

4.  Ability to scan favorite MURS, GMRS, FRS, and HAM channels

Is there any radio that fits the bill that doesn't require a bank loan to outfit myself and a few family members?
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 10:37:00 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
I'd like one that is:

2.  Easily programmable - which means not requiring a laptop

View Quote


I think that might be the toughest thing to get.  All of the amateur walkie talkies I've seen lately can be programmed from the keypad, but it isn't always intuitive.  There is a company that makes "cheat sheets" for most of the commonly available HTs out there.  

Encryption might be problematic on anything field programmable.  Since you can't legally use it on amateur radio frequencies, you typically find it only on business band or public service equipment.  I've searched for add-on encryption before, but never found anything I thought was useable.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 11:30:44 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
Riddle me this, I wasn't a grunt in the USMC - I was a freaking Comm Tech. And I don't mean the battalion kind of Comm Tech, I was the superbad MATCU kind, with almost a year-long MOS school . I hated every minute I was in because of that MOS, and I don't know shit about what kind of radio to get for SHTF, or even the kind of camping my family and I want to do.

I'd like one that is:
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Quoted:
Riddle me this, I wasn't a grunt in the USMC - I was a freaking Comm Tech. And I don't mean the battalion kind of Comm Tech, I was the superbad MATCU kind, with almost a year-long MOS school . I hated every minute I was in because of that MOS, and I don't know shit about what kind of radio to get for SHTF, or even the kind of camping my family and I want to do.

I'd like one that is:



1.  Small, something that fits in a Molle Mbitr pouch or so, but not so small that it sacrifices battery power and antenna compatibility

MBITRs are HUGE so nearly any civilian HAM type radio will work in one of those pouches with tons of room to spare.  Lithium Ion battery life is good on most radios depending on what kind of "duty cycle" you are running.  Antenna compatibility depends on the connector and the connector depends on brand but you can find pretty much any antenna type for the type of connector your radio will have.


2.  Easily programmable - which means not requiring a laptop

Most can be "hand jammed" but some are easier than others.  The chinese radios aren't known for super easy hand programing though with a little patience and practice you can get it down.


3.  Moderately easy to encrypt

Pretty much not going to find that in a civilian radio.  Some of the Chinese radios have the ability to use a basic scrambler but you need the same radios to talk to one another.  An example is the BF-888 series of radios (most) have the ability to set a channel to "scramble" mode.  It's very basic and anyone with some know how will be able to "unscramble" it, and it only works with other BF-888s.  On top of that the BF-888 is a small 2 to 3 watt UHF unit that will have limited range, and REQUIRES  a computer to program it has no screen.  The upside is, it's simple and most non-radio folks can figure it out if for some reason you needed to give them a radio during an emergency, battery life is good, they're super cheap (around 13 dollars each).  I've got 6 of them and know how to program them for the scramble feature and have a "SHTF" radio program image saved to upload to them for short range family/squad comms.


4.  Ability to scan favorite MURS, GMRS, FRS, and HAM channels


Pretty much every HAM radio has the ability to scan those and Marine VHF frequencies.  "Big three" units will usually have those blocked for transmitting and chinese radios have the ability to transmit on those frequencies though they are not type certified to do so.

Link Posted: 7/20/2016 12:07:54 AM EDT
[#23]
I'm not a radio expert at all, but I can't see a real "SHTF" use for a UV-5R. I do use a UV-5R on FRS/GMRS frequencies for airsoft which is about all they're good for.

Technically (not necessarily legally), they can transmit on FRS, GMRS, and some HAM frequencies...
  • They aren't approved for FRS (removable antenna) and the minimum power on the UV-5R is double the max allowed for FRS channels. There's no license that will allow you to legally run on FRS with a UV-5R, but I know plenty of people (including myself once) that do it.

  • They can be used legally on GMRS channels (I think) with a license, but the license is going to cost you four times what you pay for the radio.

  • You can transmit/receive on some HAM frequencies if you're licensed.

  • You CANNOT transmit/receive on normal FM radio channels...which sucks because I'd like to be able to listen to FM 100.0 "Waco 100" while playing airsoft.

  • You CANNOT transmit/receive on MURS (I think...been a while since I checked).


If you need ONE radio that's compatible with the standard blister-pack Motorola / Kenwood / Walmart FRS/GMRS radios primarily to LISTEN, the UV-5R is a good option. You'll spend as much on the UV-5R as most people spend for a PAIR of walmart radios, but if you only need ONE radio that doesn't. With 45 minutes of programming and you can be setup for the same channels.

Ignoring the legal issues, the rechargeable battery, option for a bigger battery, and option for a better antenna all beat similarly priced radios.

My main use is listening during big airsoft games (hearing what squad and team leaders are saying). My secondary use is reaching referees if there's an emergency (i.e., a moron fell off a building), in which case the batter antenna and higher power might be useful and I'm not concerned about the legality when someone needs medical help. For me, it's a good choice.

--

For a natural disaster, real HAM is probably better (with the required training and licensing...HAM's aren't going to like some random unlicensed PUG showing up causing trouble).

For a zombie apocalypse, cellphones are probably a better option. There's lots of interesting info available on how cellphones (and quadcopters) were used in the Ukraine civil war. It's a good read.

Link Posted: 7/20/2016 1:12:40 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not a radio expert at all, but I can't see a real "SHTF" use for a UV-5R. I do use a UV-5R on FRS/GMRS frequencies for airsoft which is about all they're good for.

Technically (not necessarily legally), they can transmit on FRS, GMRS, and some HAM frequencies...
  • They aren't approved for FRS (removable antenna) and the minimum power on the UV-5R is double the max allowed for FRS channels. There's no license that will allow you to legally run on FRS with a UV-5R, but I know plenty of people (including myself once) that do it.

  • They can be used legally on GMRS channels (I think) with a license, but the license is going to cost you four times what you pay for the radio.

  • You can transmit/receive on some HAM frequencies if you're licensed.

  • You CANNOT transmit/receive on normal FM radio channels...which sucks because I'd like to be able to listen to FM 100.0 "Waco 100" while playing airsoft.

  • You CANNOT transmit/receive on MURS (I think...been a while since I checked).


If you need ONE radio that's compatible with the standard blister-pack Motorola / Kenwood / Walmart FRS/GMRS radios primarily to LISTEN, the UV-5R is a good option. You'll spend as much on the UV-5R as most people spend for a PAIR of walmart radios, but if you only need ONE radio that doesn't. With 45 minutes of programming and you can be setup for the same channels.

Ignoring the legal issues, the rechargeable battery, option for a bigger battery, and option for a better antenna all beat similarly priced radios.

My main use is listening during big airsoft games (hearing what squad and team leaders are saying). My secondary use is reaching referees if there's an emergency (i.e., a moron fell off a building), in which case the batter antenna and higher power might be useful and I'm not concerned about the legality when someone needs medical help. For me, it's a good choice.

--

For a natural disaster, real HAM is probably better (with the required training and licensing...HAM's aren't going to like some random unlicensed PUG showing up causing trouble).

For a zombie apocalypse, cellphones are probably a better option. There's lots of interesting info available on how cellphones (and quadcopters) were used in the Ukraine civil war. It's a good read.

View Quote


A Baofeng is a "real HAM" radio.  It has the capability to transmit and receive on MURS/FRS/GMRS ect.  It's fairly wide on the transmit side compared to many big three radios but lacks many receive bands like the AM AIrband.

With Chirp and a programing cable you can be setup to Listen (or whatever else) in about 10 minutes.

They're not type accepted for GMRS but plenty of people run them on it.  

You can receive broadcast FM radio stations with ease.  Give a quick press on the orange button on the side and you are in FM radio mode.  A long press activates the "alarm" function which is useless.  

The airsoft community is probably one of the larger users in the US for these things for sure though.
Link Posted: 7/20/2016 6:49:55 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


A Baofeng is a "real HAM" radio.  It has the capability to transmit and receive on MURS/FRS/GMRS ect.  It's fairly wide on the transmit side compared to many big three radios but lacks many receive bands like the AM AIrband.

With Chirp and a programing cable you can be setup to Listen (or whatever else) in about 10 minutes.

They're not type accepted for GMRS but plenty of people run them on it.  

You can receive broadcast FM radio stations with ease.  Give a quick press on the orange button on the side and you are in FM radio mode.  A long press activates the "alarm" function which is useless.  

The airsoft community is probably one of the larger users in the US for these things for sure though.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not a radio expert at all, but I can't see a real "SHTF" use for a UV-5R. I do use a UV-5R on FRS/GMRS frequencies for airsoft which is about all they're good for.

Technically (not necessarily legally), they can transmit on FRS, GMRS, and some HAM frequencies...
  • They aren't approved for FRS (removable antenna) and the minimum power on the UV-5R is double the max allowed for FRS channels. There's no license that will allow you to legally run on FRS with a UV-5R, but I know plenty of people (including myself once) that do it.

  • They can be used legally on GMRS channels (I think) with a license, but the license is going to cost you four times what you pay for the radio.

  • You can transmit/receive on some HAM frequencies if you're licensed.

  • You CANNOT transmit/receive on normal FM radio channels...which sucks because I'd like to be able to listen to FM 100.0 "Waco 100" while playing airsoft.

  • You CANNOT transmit/receive on MURS (I think...been a while since I checked).


If you need ONE radio that's compatible with the standard blister-pack Motorola / Kenwood / Walmart FRS/GMRS radios primarily to LISTEN, the UV-5R is a good option. You'll spend as much on the UV-5R as most people spend for a PAIR of walmart radios, but if you only need ONE radio that doesn't. With 45 minutes of programming and you can be setup for the same channels.

Ignoring the legal issues, the rechargeable battery, option for a bigger battery, and option for a better antenna all beat similarly priced radios.

My main use is listening during big airsoft games (hearing what squad and team leaders are saying). My secondary use is reaching referees if there's an emergency (i.e., a moron fell off a building), in which case the batter antenna and higher power might be useful and I'm not concerned about the legality when someone needs medical help. For me, it's a good choice.

--

For a natural disaster, real HAM is probably better (with the required training and licensing...HAM's aren't going to like some random unlicensed PUG showing up causing trouble).

For a zombie apocalypse, cellphones are probably a better option. There's lots of interesting info available on how cellphones (and quadcopters) were used in the Ukraine civil war. It's a good read.



A Baofeng is a "real HAM" radio.  It has the capability to transmit and receive on MURS/FRS/GMRS ect.  It's fairly wide on the transmit side compared to many big three radios but lacks many receive bands like the AM AIrband.

With Chirp and a programing cable you can be setup to Listen (or whatever else) in about 10 minutes.

They're not type accepted for GMRS but plenty of people run them on it.  

You can receive broadcast FM radio stations with ease.  Give a quick press on the orange button on the side and you are in FM radio mode.  A long press activates the "alarm" function which is useless.  

The airsoft community is probably one of the larger users in the US for these things for sure though.

Thanks for the tip about listening to FM.

ETA: The only possible "SHTF" use I can see for that is if you need to coordinate with guys who just bought their radios at walmart. "Everyone switch to channel 1" and off you go.
Link Posted: 7/20/2016 11:42:25 AM EDT
[#26]
The BF and such are cheap enough, and a tech license is very easy to get. Even if you don't incorporate it into your load out, it is still fun to rag-chew on local repeaters while commuting, get weather report at hunt camp (you can set a BF for the NOAA broadcast channels), or even use at the range for line-pits comm when shooting 600+.

I went full retard and got the highest license (am extra) and a nice HF rig as well, plus a 50W mobile Kenwood in my FJ60. A 4W HT is ok for a local band of bros, but in SHTF or em event a HF rig and knowledge to use it is very valuable. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing right.
Link Posted: 7/20/2016 1:31:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There's lots of interesting info available on how cellphones (and quadcopters) were used in the Ukraine civil war. It's a good read.

View Quote

Sounds interesting, have a link?
Link Posted: 7/20/2016 7:32:49 PM EDT
[#28]
I concur.

And well put.

John

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The BF and such are cheap enough, and a tech license is very easy to get. Even if you don't incorporate it into your load out, it is still fun to rag-chew on local repeaters while commuting, get weather report at hunt camp (you can set a BF for the NOAA broadcast channels), or even use at the range for line-pits comm when shooting 600+.

I went full retard and got the highest license (am extra) and a nice HF rig as well, plus a 50W mobile Kenwood in my FJ60. A 4W HT is ok for a local band of bros, but in SHTF or em event a HF rig and knowledge to use it is very valuable. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing right.
View Quote

Link Posted: 7/20/2016 9:59:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Sounds interesting, have a link?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
There's lots of interesting info available on how cellphones (and quadcopters) were used in the Ukraine civil war. It's a good read.


Sounds interesting, have a link?

And suddenly I can't find a good link. Damn it. There was a GD thread that devolved when someone started posting lots of "it isn't Ukraine vs Russia, but none of you want to know details so here's a 3-hour video in Ukranian with Russian subtitles that explains it" type stuff over and over.

What I remember was:
1. All cell communication was monitored and run through some computers to look for keywords. A pseudo-Cesar cypher was the solution. Instead of saying "We got ambushed with 3 friendly KIA" they'd say something like "We got invited to a surprise party and three of us passed out drunk" to get around the monitors.

2. Batteries had to be removed to keep phones from being tracked. Tracking was typically accurate to within 50 ft. Turning off the phone wasn't sufficient.

3. Compromised cellphones were used to setup ambushes. Get a bunch of compromised phones, put them in the killzone, turn them on, and wait for targets to arrive.

4. Quadcopters with cameras were used extensively to spot for artillery fire. This was roughly the same time the FAA started wanting to register drones, but my tinfoil is a little too tight.

ETA: http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2015/03/ukraine-tomorrows-drone-war-alive-today/107085/
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 4:01:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Where in AZ are you?
What kind of training have you looked into?
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 8:42:16 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

And suddenly I can't find a good link. Damn it. There was a GD thread that devolved when someone started posting lots of "it isn't Ukraine vs Russia, but none of you want to know details so here's a 3-hour video in Ukranian with Russian subtitles that explains it" type stuff over and over.

What I remember was:
1. All cell communication was monitored and run through some computers to look for keywords. A pseudo-Cesar cypher was the solution. Instead of saying "We got ambushed with 3 friendly KIA" they'd say something like "We got invited to a surprise party and three of us passed out drunk" to get around the monitors.

2. Batteries had to be removed to keep phones from being tracked. Tracking was typically accurate to within 50 ft. Turning off the phone wasn't sufficient.

3. Compromised cellphones were used to setup ambushes. Get a bunch of compromised phones, put them in the killzone, turn them on, and wait for targets to arrive.

4. Quadcopters with cameras were used extensively to spot for artillery fire. This was roughly the same time the FAA started wanting to register drones, but my tinfoil is a little too tight.

ETA: http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2015/03/ukraine-tomorrows-drone-war-alive-today/107085/
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There's lots of interesting info available on how cellphones (and quadcopters) were used in the Ukraine civil war. It's a good read.


Sounds interesting, have a link?

And suddenly I can't find a good link. Damn it. There was a GD thread that devolved when someone started posting lots of "it isn't Ukraine vs Russia, but none of you want to know details so here's a 3-hour video in Ukranian with Russian subtitles that explains it" type stuff over and over.

What I remember was:
1. All cell communication was monitored and run through some computers to look for keywords. A pseudo-Cesar cypher was the solution. Instead of saying "We got ambushed with 3 friendly KIA" they'd say something like "We got invited to a surprise party and three of us passed out drunk" to get around the monitors.

2. Batteries had to be removed to keep phones from being tracked. Tracking was typically accurate to within 50 ft. Turning off the phone wasn't sufficient.

3. Compromised cellphones were used to setup ambushes. Get a bunch of compromised phones, put them in the killzone, turn them on, and wait for targets to arrive.

4. Quadcopters with cameras were used extensively to spot for artillery fire. This was roughly the same time the FAA started wanting to register drones, but my tinfoil is a little too tight.

ETA: http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2015/03/ukraine-tomorrows-drone-war-alive-today/107085/

Thanks
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 10:47:19 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
Where in AZ are you?
What kind of training have you looked into?
View Quote



I'm in Gilbert. Between my wife's work and my kid starting dance and gymnastics I haven't had too much time. But I'd like to take a course on how to use my IFAK, a carbine course and handgun course. Money is always an issue of course.

I did stumble up the Appleseed website and they have a class that's pretty cheap and seems like it would be good for basics. I'm not a noob but at least I could get my feet wet.

I know this is me just being in dreamland but I'd like to just hook up with a couple of ex SF guys and work out and do drills with them. Like I said earlier, I don't want to be in the position of that cop in Dallas and be totally out maneuvered I'll do my best to make sure that's not me if the time ever comes.
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 11:24:19 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
View Quote



Thank you for that excellent response. When I get ready to get a radio, do you mind if I bend your ear a bit more via PM on here before I make my purchase? I am actually a licensed HAM operator - but I've never operated....
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 12:13:47 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:



Thank you for that excellent response. When I get ready to get a radio, do you mind if I bend your ear a bit more via PM on here before I make my purchase? I am actually a licensed HAM operator - but I've never operated....
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Quoted:
Quoted:



Thank you for that excellent response. When I get ready to get a radio, do you mind if I bend your ear a bit more via PM on here before I make my purchase? I am actually a licensed HAM operator - but I've never operated....

You might also post in the ARFCOM ham forum, a lot of people will be happy to help you in there.  I have my general but have been too broke to buy into HF for the 2 years since I got it.
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 2:39:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Thank you for that excellent response. When I get ready to get a radio, do you mind if I bend your ear a bit more via PM on here before I make my purchase? I am actually a licensed HAM operator - but I've never operated....
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:



Thank you for that excellent response. When I get ready to get a radio, do you mind if I bend your ear a bit more via PM on here before I make my purchase? I am actually a licensed HAM operator - but I've never operated....


Sure thing.
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 4:22:40 PM EDT
[#36]
In my opinion the best handheld transceiver for the money is the Yaesu VX6R. I wish I never wasted my money on Baofengs (I have killed a few due to water damage).

I personally use Icom ID-51As now, but for general comms the Yaesu is better value. Icom allows data sharing using Dstar if you ever have a use for that then its worth looking into.
Link Posted: 7/23/2016 3:15:59 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:

Ok, you guys are awesome. This is way better than anything I got from radio forums.

View Quote



You can use many of the Chinese radios (some easily modded, some out of the box) to transmit on frequencies that don't require a license, and at power levels that won't raise any eyebrows.   Most of the UV-5R's will do the MURS frequencies.    The FCC frowns upon using the equipment for this, so don't give anyone a reason to complain.

Make sure you know what you're doing programming them so you don't piss people off.   Miklor.com and chirp.danplanet.com are a good place to start.    Programming with a PC is a piece of cake - you just need to understand what to set and why.    Getting a license is not a bad idea.



I don't want to offend the squared away HAMs reading this, but the HAM community is pretty much the most vile online community I have ever had the displeasure of interacting with.  

Yes, people need to use the various services responsibly.  Yes, the rules exist for a number of reasons.   But unfortunately, some of them have decided it's in their interest to drive away newcomers to protect their little fiefdom
 

It used to be sort of sad, but now we're at the point where the powers that be have finally used their regulatory grip on radio for the purposes of making it easier to kill people.    It's not really funny anymore, and you need to be extremely careful when interacting with some elements of the amateur radio community.
Link Posted: 7/30/2016 1:07:01 AM EDT
[#38]
I am not sure what the poster above me is talking about, but I will throw in some info.
I have a General License (that's essentially the second tier where you can use HF radio stuff that goes long range as well as the VHF/UHF stuff you guys have been talking about).
Here's the basic reason why HAM's are so protective of the radio stuff in a nutshell. We have a LOT of 'rights' in the USA to different frequency bands. I use quotations because the FCC has the ability to take them from us. The HAM community is also self policing. As long as we maintain civil operators (staying within band, not using for 'for profit' purposes, etc.) we continue to be essentially protected. There are lots of companies that would and could pay massive sums of money to have the bands 'repurposed' to commercial uses. The Baofeng (and other cheap) radios offer the ability to get into radio very cheaply and thus have attracted many people which is a great joy to HAM operators. That being said, that also includes a few that cannot be bothered to learn what they can and should do. I am not saying anyone here is that way, but I am saying I have seen it before.

The crucial thing to understand about the UV-5R (and others including my recommendation for you, a Baofeng BF-F8HP) is thus:

- You can use it for MURS, FRS and GMRS. (Example 462.5625 and 151.820) Those types (as in a government type classification) of radios have power limitations (and antenna limitations in some cases) that ensure no one doing 'stupid crap' can radiate their behaviour too far away and interfere with other users. The Chinese radios allow you to exceed power limitations.
- You can use it for HAM radio. (Example 144.0~148.0 MHz and 420.0~450.0 MHz) Getting a license is recommended so you can practice with it and engage with others. You will find that there is (depending on your place in the country) a decent sized group of HAM people with emergency expertise and interests in your AO. You may learn a few things and you may end up with some expanded resources and networking. I know I did. I found quite a few extremely capable people (doubtless on this board) that I found very beneficial to know. As others stated, you cannot use a radio without some knowledge. You must understand that HAM radio is historically fairly well connected to Emergency Management interests and groups. No, not FEMA, but rather local county based operations that you may actually find USEFUL to get involved in. Many of these people participate in local EMA groups that deal with events that resemble SHTF situations on a normal basis. Many of these people are also preppers and gun nuts, too.
- You can also use it to BROADCAST on freqs that you cannot and must not under any circumstances broadcast on. Do I sound like a 'radio douche'? If you end up broadcasting on a NOAA weather frequency (Example 162.400 MHz) or a local fire fighter coordination (Example 154.500 MHz), sometimes without knowing it if you don't understand bandwidth, etc. you most definitely will look like a douche when the federal government does, in fact, come seek you out. Mess with FRS and GMRS and exceeded power levels and no one will likely notice or care. In this same area, you will find frequencies for Ambulance, Public Works, Emergency Management, Airports, Sheriff and Firefighters, etc. Mess with these other freqs and they definitely will. This is the one that raises the eyebrows with HAMS. Most radio transceivers in the past came with locked out transmitters on unauthorized frequencies to be cautious. You can still listen, but it's locked out from accidentally transmitting. I know I have accidentally hit transmit on a local NOAA channel before but thankfully it was locked out.
For comparison, the UV-5R can both receive and send from 136.0~174.0 Mhz and 400.0~480 MHz

Anyways, I think most HAMS will admit that anyone willing to take time to know what frequencies and power levels are used for what is not too worried about unlicensed people buying HAM radios for SHTF or listening beforehand or using them on FRS/GMRS. Just don't think you are going to have much luck using it in time of need or that you are even very likely to interfere with legit traffic, honestly. It's kind of like a guy who has never used a gun before asking about buying a 'sniper rifle' and thinking he's going to pop heads at 500 yards if SHTF but will adamantly never use a firearm beforehand.

Buy a radio, study the question pool for the Technician license and take the test. Listen to local repeaters. Listen during 'nets'. Take it at whatever pace you want but I would advise you to give it a go as it's useful to have.

Important note is that in a life or death situation (roughly equivalent to SHTF) you can legally use any and all means of communications including frequencies for NOAA, emergency responders, air traffic controllers, and even military.

OK, on to the UV-5R or BF-F8HP, etc. A quick set of facts about them:

-Baofeng is supposed to be pronounced 'po fung'. When they learned how Americans pronounced their name, they started up the brandname Pofung. You will find stuff made by Pofung that is to be used with Baofeng.
-You will find that you will want a good upgraded antenna; a Nagoya NA-771 is a good match for a Baofeng. It's cheap, it works, etc. The antenna has as much to do with being able to get anything done with radios as the power of the radio.
-The OE batteries are good, so buy a second one, get a good cigarette charger and maybe a AA battery pack.
-They have a limited feature set which is GOOD for someone learning. That, combined with their cheapness, is why they became so popular for the SHTF crowd.
-The aforementioned opened transmit capability means you need to have a hard copy of the HAM band plan (tells you what frequency ranges you can transmit in) and the FRS/GMRS freqs and limitations so you know how to stay out of trouble.
-Limited feature set means easy to learn but also... limited when you get better with the radio. By contrast the fancier japanese radios (Yaesu VX-7R, VX-8R, etc.) honestly just have too much crap on them and that also makes them difficult to use. IMHO the happy medium can be a more basic UHF/VHF jap radio such as Yaesu FT-60R but those use NiMH batteries instead of Li Ion like Baofengs and VX series... (kinda a shame).
-They can be a bit tough to do some things with like program a repeater into a channel, but it is doable. So either a clunky interface (Baofeng) or a pretty/slick interface with too much crap to wade through (higher end radios). It's awash IMHO. I have both.
-They aren't the best at keeping their signal within the range they are supposed to but they aren't always terrible.
-CHIRP. Google it, download it, learn it. In case of SHTF and you were smart enough to buy more than one radio, you can clone them all the same (with CHIRP software and a PC) so you have channelized settings for everyone to use with radios you hand out and minimal instruction.
-ONLY buy the genuine USB programming cable for ANY radio.
-Fit and finish is cheesy but it's fine. They won't fall apart but they feel like they were made in the same factory as a tonka toy. (because they probably were... if you're lucky)
-If you have some cash (and common sense) buy at least two. That way you actually have someone to talk to and a backup. ;-)
-Encrypting comms is illegal on public bands so you won't find much of any equipment along those lines. Give it time, I bet chinese radios could end up doing some, though. It isn't illegal to have, just use. All it takes is for someone to get the bright idea of standardizing a 'record, encrypt and transmit' audio device that plugs into the speaker mic port of a radio that can also 'receive, decrypt and playback'. I am sure it can be done with a Raspberry Pi and a bit of open source stuff.
-Yaesu HT's will be more ruggedized, so something to think about. You can always buy a UV-5R first. If you like it, get into the Yaesu and have the UV-5R as a backup.

Find a local club or county EMA to volunteer in. Take it at whatever pace you want. The HAM people are usually very happy to help you out. It's just, as I hope you have learned from my post, some might be a bit concerned about unlicensed people unknowingly bringing FCC heat down on HAMS.
Link Posted: 7/31/2016 4:05:33 PM EDT
[#39]
im a ham and have a few Baofeng's. They work. I use one in my car wired up a nice antenna on my roof and have convos all over TX with it. I can hit distant repeaters in the area with a nagoya whip from my back patio. They're cheap, but they work IMO. If you need simple comms, they're fine.

Hand Mics they often come with are crap, but will say battery life is pretty good.

i got them super cheap and really couldn't focus huge $ amounts towards comms at the moment, but i needed something until after i move and have more funds freed up.

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