my friend and i train together and want to incorporate comms into our kits and preps frankly. we have a set of cheap walkies but frankly we're looking for something a bit more rugged.

I am interested in getting my HAM license, but the concepts and material overwhelm the hell out of me and I am a software developer, lol. there is probably no topic that I am more ignorant of then comms and i wanna change that.

Basically we wanna be able to communicate effectively across short distances to start and then maybe up to a few miles.

I've read a lot of stuff on this forum about comms including the sticky above (4 years dated) and while i have a general idea, I basically need to be guided into a setup that I can run with and learn from.

was looking at these

http://www.amazon.com/BaoFeng-UV-5R-Dual-Radio-Black/dp/B007H4VT7A/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1460830644&sr=8-10&keywords=icom

this

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OH2UG92?psc=1


and these (NOT HAMS????) http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PJXLX4U?psc=1

and what this dude has top of pg2

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_10/366656__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Tactical_Comm_Write_Up.html&page=2

for a setup with PPT, ear buds and all, what would ya'll recommend?

this is the set we've played with but we lost comminication a lil less then a mile from each other.
https://www.rei.com/product/790323/midland-gxt1000vp4-2-way-radios-2-pack

OP:


"interested in getting my HAM license, but the concepts and material overwhelm the hell out of me"


.


   IF you are unwilling to LEARN how to use a radio, then the radio selection itself is  irrelevant.


 
.

Check out the local radio club, there will be  study guides, and  free classes, which you probably don't need, as all the material, and the question  list is online.

 There is also an amateur radio   section  here under the  OUTDOORS forum.

.   That said, any cheap pair of chinese VHF   rigs will  talk 5 miles on battery power.

second part of that sentence and i will quote myself "there is probably no topic that I am more ignorant of then comms and i wanna change that."

i am more then willing but gotta start somewhere in a topic that i find myself highly confused with.

Look  for local radio club.
usually really friendly, helpful folks, love to get  newbs involved in radio.

been looking into that too.

So having a HAM setup isn't necessary for tac comms?

Not really.  Having your amateur license at least gives you a basic level of understanding radio theory, and opens up a lot wider range of options.  Add to that being a part of the radio community or local club gives you a lot of experience to draw from.  However, lots of hams will be anti-gun or fudd types, so I would use discretion in how I approached them with questions until I knew their leanings.

As with anything, get the training before going in with the gear.  Baofengs are good for most people, but they do have a fair amount of limitations, the upside is they work and are cheap so getting a pair and trying them out isn't expensive.  The selection of frequencies you may transmit on without an amateur license is extremely limited, though, so take that into account.

I don't think a ham radio license is going to be too helpful for your situation OP. Neither will your local ham radio club, those guys are probably interested in much different applications than you are. (Like talking to as many strangers in as many different places as possible)

What you want is a GMRS license, and 5W handheld radios. Add a portable repeater when needed, and you'll have a great system for your needs.
More info

yeah, most hams i know are fudds thats fore sure. ive spent the day reading up on all this. I like the concept of GMRS which my whole family can use under one license.



read through this. It seems for now at least, GMRS is probably the avenue i wanna go and then eventually become a ham. I can use low power for tac training as distances are usually no more then 100-200 yards perhaps.

thanks for the help thus far everyone, it's helped me in my learning.

I just looked over the radios you posted.  The Retevis with the voice scrambler are essentially ham 440 transceivers, I'm not sure there is anything in the frequency range listed that you could transmit on without being licensed.  They could be programmed for FRS and GMRS, but if you operate according to the rules the equipment for those must be type-accepted, and anything that can be programed typically will not fall into that category.  Add to that encryption is against FCC rules on any ham bands or public use bands, FRS, CB, part 47, etc.

I agree with the GMRS being a good option if you aren't interested in going much further with your comms, but I would also suggest getting a baofeng or decent handheld scanner as well.  Both monitor unencrypted public service frequencies very well, the upside to the baofeng is it can do double duty in an emergency and allow you to call for help as well.  Many of the public safety people around here have them as a backup radio.  Being able to monitor what is going on around you can be even more important than tactical comms, depending on the situation.

How hard you are going to use your equipment can come into play as well.  While most report the cheap chinese radios hold up well, I'd think very few of them actually do tactical training with them.  Your more expensive Japanese-designed ham equipment and commercial radios are going to be leaps and bounds ahead of chinese radios in durability and features.  Most will be waterproof or water-resistant at the least, which could be a very real consideration depending on where you are located.  Instead of a plastic case, the shell will be aluminum or a magnesium-aluminum alloy.  Battery life will usually be better, and at least with ham equipment you can usually get an AA or AAA battery case for emergencies.  The trade off is getting into 10x+ territory in price.

I plan to be rather hard on the ones i carry but the ones for my family not so much. I found a 5 pack of retevis that work as hams and gmrs with programming. Are those ok to use? What would you recommend brand and model wise?

edit... not that would necessarily buy 5, but i was reading up on these.... http://www.amazon.com/Retevis-RT-5R-136-174-400-520-Programming/dp/B00FQ4O1IW?ie=UTF8&colid=ZLUERGEH58TM&coliid=IWK5AEGJHIPHQ&ref_=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl

Howard leigh impact sports, a 3.5mm male to 3.5mm male cord, and a baofeng trucker mic. BING BANG BOOM done for under $75
 

Also, baofengs don't last too long IME.  Now that the UV-5Rs are discontinued they aren't as screaming of a deal. Their replacement, same guts but now 1/4/8W power, are $60 a pop. At that point I just save the extra $100 and spring for a FT-60 and get something that is quality and will last.

As far as the chinese radios go, I don't think there is enough difference between each to really matter.  Look for the best deal in # of transceivers, accessories included will likely be bottom barrel so budget for better upgrades.  I have no experience with the retevis brand.  With the baofengs there is very little difference feature-wise between different models, except there are some claiming higher transmit power, and they have one that is type-accepted for some bands.  Neither of those is really a big deal for you, while higher power might be nominally useful in some situations the reality is VHF/UHF communications are typically limited to line of sight unless you have a repeater or are very close to each other.

Just as a disclaimer, there are rules about the equipment itself that can be used on different bands.  I don't think any of the programmable radios meet the requirements for FRS/GMRS comms, so if on those you are operating outside the rules.  Realistically you are going to have zero trouble with that unless you do other things to get the FCC interested in you.

thanks. there is a lot to chew on here. I dont mind starting with something 'cheap' to learn on. I see the Yaesu FT is a nice setup and that's my goal. I wanna setup with something i know can work and i can learn on then move up from there. gotta walk before i can crawl, ya know?

I've used the Baofeng with the earpiece mic that comes in the box, and it works really well!

The Howard Leight setup is what I use.  I had to get a mono to stereo adapter for the microphone side though to make it work 100 percent.

The UV-5Rs are still out there they aren't discontinued.  It's just that BAOFENG TECH (one of the US distributors) stopped carrying them and called them discontinued so more people would buy the 60 dollar 8 watt radios.   You can still find UV-5Rs on Amazon for under 30 dollars all day long.  I do own a few of the 8 watt models.  While 8 watts is rarely needed I don't don't have to run it at 8 watts all the time.  You can turn the power down as needed.   You CAN'T turn the power up on nearly any bubble pack radio out there though.  



Totally dependent on terrain.  Me and my riding buddies on forest service roads in the moutains can sometimes lose contact at less than a mile straight line distance but I've made 98 to 105 mile simplex contacts standing on a ridge line at 5000 feet talking out across the desert towards Yuma.  



No you could use a FRS radio for "TAC COMMS" if you wanted.  HAM radio gives you a lot of flexibility that FRS does not.  GMRS give you flexibility between FRS and GMRS and the license is easy to get.  Though the Technician HAM radio license is stupid easy.  It's a government multiple question test and there are numerous online resources to practice taking the tests with the real question pool used to build them.  You could known nothing about radios and memorize the test answers enough to pass the Tech exam.  Not that I suggest that but it is possible.  5 year old kids have literally passed the exam.




Very few gun owners do any real "tactical training" either.  I've got a pile of UV-5Rs and BF-888(UHF only radio down to around 12 bucks a pop right nwo) laying around and they will take a beating.  A group that does run their gear and and beats it to death against objects, rain, ect, is a lot of folks in the airsoft community.  They get razzed on a lot but these guys are actually  out there running around jumping, ducking, crawling in bushes and creeks ect ect ect and the most popular radio you see out on these fields is Baofengs or the like.  If the radios weren't tough they wouldn't survive what a lot of these guys put them though.  

The Chinese radios use a metal chassis and plastic case just like every "Big three" handheld I've held unless you go back to the huge field radio type radios of the past.   It does feel like the "big three' use more metal in their chassis as they are usually a bit heavier and I'd imagine the quality of the solder on the joints of the connections is probably higher quality as well..

A note on longevity again.  I run mobile HAM radio on my motorcycle.  Everyday.  On road and off road ect my UV-5Rs have taken it in stride.   And a motorcycle is an awful environment for a radio.  Vibrations alone should have killed the HT on my bars long ago.  

Yeah the FCC has bigger fish to fry.  Hell it took them nearly a decade to fine and confiscate the radio gear of two WELL KNOWN offenders on the HF bands who over that nearly decade period has received something like 14 warning letters from the FCC.  You'd have to be doing something pretty egregious to bring the wrath of the FCC using a Baofeng without a license on FRS/GMRS/MURS frequencies.  

A massive advantage the HAM type radios have over FRS and most type certified GMRS radios is the ability to take external antennas.  FRS can't legally take external antennas so none that I know of are designed that way.  

The higher you can get that antenna the better.  I keep a roll up SlimJim antenna in my assault pack for those times you may have to really get out.  Or when camping I can setup a makeshift base station easily and quickly and keep a small radio in the tent.

Pretty much this. As long as you are aware if you were to get attention drawn to you by the FCC fines are massive. Real world stay away from any public safety frequencies and any business communications (and stay off local HAM frequencies and repeaters) and it's not realistic to believe anyone is going to know what type of radio your even using on MARS, FRS or GMRS. A chicom radio like a Baofeng UV5R, extended battery and a speaker mic and free chirp software and you can have a pelican case full of useful radio equipment to train and have in case of SHTF for minimal cost.

if i sought to avoid the ham aspect of a radio and sought ruggedness in a GRMS radio, would these work?
http://www.buytwowayradios.com/products/midland/midland-gxt-5000.aspx

specs seem to fit the bill to take a 'beating'. Just doesn't offer a removable antenna.

but also at this pricepoint, i could get the yeasu...

Do you have a link to the mic?  My Google-Fu is weak today.....

I got a yeast vx-6r ham radio, ptt and sordin headset modded by SRS tactical.  I also have a few H4855s or Bowman PRC 343 radios.  They are for sale on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vanaras-H4855-PRR-on-UK-PMR-446-with-bowman-headset-works-with-UK-PMR-radios-/111971308785?hash=item1a120294f1:g:DkcAAOSw1DtXEnQR

The standard speaker mic has a 3.5mm port on the bottom next to the cord where you plug in.  It is covered and a lot of people would miss seeing it unless they were looking for it.

this thread has provided a treasure trove of info for me. I'm going to take the HAM exam locally on the 7th.

The GRMS license is $65 for 5 years. IMO it's not a lot for the whole fam...

That would work if you never needed to patch in someone not on your GMRS frequency.





A technician ticket allows you to use ham frequencies and if you transceiver is 'modded' you can tx/rx freqs outside the ham bands in an emergency.






Anybody can find the technician test online and keep taking it online until you feel you can go take the real test. It's really not rocket surgery.




 

Midland is less than stellar quality.



 

You should get a prc119 with an oe254,  then suppliment with a prc68 using a kyv2.

Owning page 2.

just an update, passed the amateur technician exam with flying colors and going for the general next month. Snagged a Baofeng UV-5X and have been playing with it for hours now.

Did you download the software(CHIRP I think) to update it and get the programming cable?

yeah, was up all damn night playing with it. I need a little assistance with the chirp stuff, but managed to find a lot of people who have the chirp/csv files of common stations, etc and simple walk-through guide for basic setup. for now, they will be used more for simplex comms, but still need to get repeaters setup, etc for SHTF stuff.

the UV-5x is a sturdy little radio! plan on buying a bunch more of them. for my kit, i got a 2 ft coax ext cable to have as an option to run antenna up rear of my carrier or bag or whatever. it hooks up nice, but leaves portions of of the antenna mount exposed as well as the base of the antenna.

do u need a special extension or wrap the connections in electrical tape?

You want it on there permanently? If you do, I would suggest heat shrink tubing at least the antenna to cord?

this radio may be the radio i use in my kit, it may not. just looking for suggestions/solutions if i choose to do that.

i do want a yaesu ultimately, but gotta watch the funds....

"Ham" is not an acronym, it's a slang term for amateur radio.

If you'd have checked in with the amateur radio forum here we could have steered you toward the better model of cheap radio. Regardless, it'll get you on the air.

Congrats on the test, as you know the learning is just beginning. Keep in mind that amateur radio is a very diverse activity that tends to attract a great variety of people. Do what you enjoy, learn what you can.

With some knowledge of how radio works you will be able to make better choices for your other communications needs, and recognize the strengths and limitations of the options.

just another tool in the toolbox for me.

If you are using decent quality connectors they should be waterproof, so no real need to wrap them with anything unless you are wanting to hide them.  There are some rubber connection covers available you could put on that would slide down over it, but you'll have to search since I have no idea what the real name of them are, just used them putting in Directv and Dishnet satellite systems.  The biggest thing is keeping that antenna connector from receiving a hard blow, as it would likely snap off and if you're really unlucky it would be at the PCB inside.  

I went with an SMA to BNC for my yeasu.  It screws down on top and leaves a flat area with the bnc sticking out.  Seems like a more secure connection but that could be in my head.

good to know! i'll probably have it on a pouch on the side if i am running my carrier, or in a front pouch of my chest rig.

If you know how to build feed lines, or if you end up looking for another, consider getting one with a 90 degree male end for the HT side.  They're a little more low profile and they generally work better for a DIY remote antenna setup.

I've built a bunch of antenna relocation kits for PRC-148's and PRC-152's (same concept just TNC connectors and RG-58 coax) and I found the ones with the 90 degree male ends on the HT (aka radio) side worked out a lot better than the ones with a standard crimp on connector.  I use shrink tube if available, if not electrical tape works fine, to finish the connector.  Just a personal OCD sort of thing but I use 2 pieces of shrink tube.  The first extends down the coax about .75", then the second extends past that another .75".  Just seems to help protect the coax a little more from kinking/crimping/bending against the rear of the connector which can destroy a cable.  

so i've been working on my comms setup religiously for a few weeks now. there is a nice learning curve with all the HAM technology out there, so i am doing baby steps here...

picked up a slim jim antenna and tossed it up high in the yard the other night. wired it to my UV-5X and was able to listen to activity from all over, but my other HAM friends could not hear me broadcast on any repeater. the closest operating repeater to me is about 15 miles away. My friend can hit it with his 8 watt baofeng, but i cant with my 5 watt. I was able to make contact on the simplex 520 calling bands so that's cool. Where i live is lots of rolling hills loaded with obstructions, so as i grow and learn with this, i'll be investing in more powerful equipment and of course better antennas.




noted. thanks!

Build a 5 element yagi and aim it at the repeater, preferably from an elevated position with as clear a LOS as you can get, and you'll stand a better chance of making it but that might be a bit of a stretch for the UV-5R

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I'll give about a 99.999% probability you don't need Watts, you need settings. You probably need to get the tone squelch (aka "PL" "CTCSS" "subaudible tone") turned on and set correctly for the repeaters you are trying to access. Or you don't have the repeater offset set correctly. Or both.

Lol that didn't even cross my mind. But yeah that would do it too.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

we both analyzed my chirp file and my PL's were correct.

so i got my 8 watt baofeng in the mail today. programmed it with the same profile as the 5 watt unit i had issues with. Was hitting the distant repeaters with just my whip antenna within 10 mins or so. it was either a POS unit or a power issue. The unit probably doesn't put out 5 watts - more like 3-4 based on reviews out there. Either way, i am up and running now and been talking to other hams from all over the area today.

I plan to get a few more of the 8 watt models for SHTF and to keep in my EDC bag, car, etc.

The signal difference between 8 and 5 watts is essentially imperceptible on FM.

I would suspect you have a bad radio, bad antenna, something like that.

Listen to this guy - he's dead on.  Also, because chirp has a setting listed one way, doesn't mean that's how the radio interpreted it.

Id suspect bad radio at this point. I will be doing more analysis later today. Using same antenna on the new one and its been golden.