"Extraordinary" claims? FFS...

Is he listed on the NIJ website?  If not then they are not certified. It's pretty simple really. If they are in the NIJ certified list then they are certified. If they are noybonvthe list they are not. It doesn't matter what they claim.  It doesn't matter what testing has been done it hasn't been certified by NIJ as meeting their standards unless the product is listed on their compliance list.

Last time I checked (September 2015) there was no steel armor manufacturer in the NIJ list.

I'm taking a lot of interest in this thread because I'm ready to buy armor- have the money I need and have been researching different products and carriers.  I want to get the best product I can.

As an independent observer of this debate, what are your qualifications and expertise on this subject?  To be honest, you haven't provided anything in this thread other than "take my word for it" or "check other threads."

I don't want to waste my money on steel if it won't do what it's supposed to.  However, if good qaulity steel is cheaper than ceramics than I can spend the difference on other important things.  I'd like to know the real truth woth some facts to back it up.

He is not listed on the site.

This is the closest to NIJ testing I can find.

http://www.eod-gear.com/ar500-level-iii-nij-0101-06-certified-plates/

This thread is one of the more interesting trainwrecks I've had the pleasure of watching in a while.  

I will have to clarify my understanding of DRhodes' post, though - I don't think he's saying the thread is violating the CoC, he's saying he's "bummed" because it would be against the CoC to troll the thread... "for the lulz," as the kids say these days (I'm probably a couple years behind on my idioms, I'm sure they say something else now...)

I have nothing more of substance to add, except to say that while the posters might not be saying it directly... there is some experience in the armor industry that's worth factoring in.  Wherever you choose to apply that, whether in the direction of "probably knows what they're talking about and more than they're saying," or "inherently biased," is not my call to make for anyone else.  

Carry on!



~Augee

Are you really suggesting that its ludicrous for a body armor company to have tighter material tolerances than the generic sheet steel stuff you posted?  

 

Quit acting like everyone in here is praising the steel body armor overlords and think for a second.  I never said they don't use AR500 (even though someone else did) but if you think they can't put a hardness spec on their drawing or PO you're out of touch with how factories buy raw materials.


You quoted a generic steel spec, for industrial sheets that anyone can buy.  You did not provide proof that steel body armor has that wide of a range, and you didn't back up your claim that steel has "softer spots" that are only a few inches apart.


The likely reason is because neither are true.



If you want to explain to people, with facts, why steel body armor is inferior then go ahead and do it.  In several ways, it is. But don't act like steel armor plates are some industrial nonuniform shit with soft spots that might let a round sneak through.  


The point of these threads (and my armor testing) is to explain things to people so they can pick their own shit, not lead them toward what your personal preference is.  

Reading is pretty difficult for you, I guess.

That explains the tank.

I just looked and AR500Armor's level III and Level IV plates are on the list.

Lol, okay, gotcha.

I've never heard of the Army turning down candidates for being too smart.. Just sayin'.  


But yeah, sometimes I have trouble reading between the lines.

Good to know. Thanks. I guess they are NIJ certified now then.

My information about AR500armor.com not using generic AR500 came from information I got from them when doing armor research. They had issues with quality control, bending multi-curve plates, and certain rated plates and chose a slightly different alloys based on application. They also started specing an alloy that is more stringent than AR500 for armor and use steels other than very tightly regulated AR500 in certain applications. I did not ask for their proprietary steel info and what products use what steels. I spoke with two different multi-curved steel dealers and one uses a press brake and one does not due to claimed weakness at the hard bends in a press brake bent armor piece. I have no data to support if that is true or not. Their specs for their armor steel are higher than regular AR500. AR500armor.com's original flat armor plates from AR500 were straight, generic AR500. They now select and spec specific steels or harnesses of steels, heat treats etc. for each application. I am not privy to the specifics, but their own website states:

What is AR500 Armor Body Armor made of?

AR500 Armor uses an advanced ballistic grade steel core as the backbone of our armor. This material is much harder than traditional steel and other alternatives of “steel armor” currently on the market. Our material is specially designed for us and to our standards for use in ballistic applications. The combination of our ingenuity, manufacturing techniques, and experience in the armor and tactical gear industry allow us to produce armor that is unmatched in performance and quality. Our in house manufacturing allows us to offer our armor at a realistic and affordable price point.

The core of AR500 Armor body armor measures in on the Brinell Hardness Scale (BNH) between 504 and 519. Reliable traits of our core such as consistent thickness and temper are what we’ve built our reputation on. AR500 Armor is known for producing reliable and effective body armor solutions. Simply put, we use the highest quality ballistic grade steel available in the industry. Few in the industry have the ability to obtain the same quality material and utilize our unique manufacturing techniques.

We encourage you to be weary and do your research on any armor solution you choose, regardless if you decide to purchase elsewhere or from us. Look for quality and a reputation you can trust as not all “steel armor” is created equal and required to meet strict quality standards and product testing standards.

The more gentle curved armor I looked at was from Spartan. From their website:

Extreme Lightweight Steel Core Level III+ Armaply™ Armor from Spartan Armor Systems.  This armor has our signature Advanced Triple Curve™ (ATC) ergonomic profile as well.  We’ve tested a wide-array of higher hardness steel core armor plates and we have worked closely with our metallurgist.  The result – A revolutionary steel core armor platform manufactured precisely to our specifications!  With it’s specific chemical and physical properties meeting our exact requirements, our proprietary Armaply™ Armor  has exceptional forming properties- much better than traditional AR650+ hardness steel core armor platforms.  This armor is able to be formed to our ergonomic, PATENT-PENDING ATC profile very SAFELY using our proprietary bending methods and tooling.  This is NOT your typical press-brake bent armor.  This armor has a single, flowing bend radius to preserve the integrity of the plate.

So if you wish to know more you can contact them yourself and ask for any specifics that you wish to. Please share the information you get from them.

My own research drove me to select ceramic over UHMWPE stand alone plates in a SAPI shape that would stop both M855 and M193 at 3200+fps. I stopped my steel armor research and focused on UHMWPE and ceramic limitations. I can only offer what I learned up till that point. I am still learning too.

How did I miss that?

 
So where does XM193 come in? Is this the independent lab stuff mentioned earlier?

I don't know of any formal testing against XM193, just guys like us shooting it and recording it.

Some manufacturers also have an independent lab test armor for special threats in accordance with NIJ standard. Obviously, that has no bearing on the threat level rating, but it does carry more weight than some fatass on YouTube.

When you see the word (modified) anywhere on the sheet, that's a warning. It's also a guarantee that it's not certified.

Copy that.

Turns out they are certified, though.

I'm guessing the sheet I posted was prior to the NIJ certification.

Those model numbers on the list are shared NIJ certs, and they are plates manufactured by someone else. Look on the list and notice how many times they appear under different labels.

Their IIIA products do not appear in the NIJ list, unless I'm missing something. Could be that they're working on that.

What does that mean?

Interdasting. Glad to see you finally contributing. I look forward to the new age of peace and detente.

I have mentioned some of my credentials before but I would prefer to just tell the story of my username: When I was designing plates, one of my goals was to get Dyneema HB2 from 63 layers down to 60 layers and still pass NIJ04 level III standards. I bought a new, bigger press just for that purpose (and because I needed another press) and redesigned our tooling from the ground up. Although these days, HB2 is basically never used and getting a sub-3lb level III plate is something many companies can do, nobody could do it at that time. It was a mission for us that took on a life of it's own, although it would have bored most people to tears. When we finally got back the results of a successful lab test at 60 layers, it was quite a celebration and one of the fondest memories I have of my time in the industry and of the great folks working for me. Six months later, I received an offer on the company that I couldn't refuse, especially since the sammich maker was demanding that I retire, so that I didn't die. You may have noticed that I can be a rather intense fellow.

Anyway, then I became a useless old man yelling at kids until I discovered ARFCom, where I work diligently to be an armchair commando. When I set up an account on the site, "Layer60" just seemed like the right name to go with.

Fuck, now that I think about it, that's pretty sad and pathetic.

I dunno man, that's pretty badass if you ask me.

Well, that explains the bias, but it's a cooler story than my username.

^

 
Yup.





But for real just because industrial AR500 steel is 460-544 BHN that doesn't mean that armor companies can't tell the steel distributor "I want plates that are 520-530", they'll just pay more for them.  We do it all the time at work.  I never said that's exactly what they do, nor can I prove it.  What I said was; reading a catalog with steel properties doesn't tell you how hard a body armor plate is.  And it doesn't.  They could be using shit that's 461, or they could be paying a premium for plates that are 530+.  I would think that their testing would be done with a sample at the lowest end of their tolerance, that's what any self respecting company would do.  


The crystalline structure of a plate can only vary along that plate if the temperature and quench varied along that plate, which would not happen with a 1/4" thick 10x12 plate.  I have a guy willing to check BHN in a grid pattern on an armor plate and record the hardness at each point to see how consistent it is.  I'll post it when he gets me the data.  

People in the armor industry rebrand plates. If you look at level 3+ hybrid plates about a third will be listed as model 3610. If you look at a Hesco 3610 and another companies level 3+ certified as model number 3610 its the same plate with different skin and stickers for identification. Like GMC/Chevy... only far more often copied.

And to whoever IM'ed me a question about armor please resend because I accidentally deleted the message.

Now someone needs to do a test of these AR680 plates from BPM:

http://bulletproofme.com/RP-Level-3-PLUS-Steel.html

My understanding thus far has been that higher hardness than AR500 and you're looking at plate fracture on impact, but these guys seem to think otherwise.

I already shot holes in that plate with M193. At a velocity less than what was listed on their site.  

They did update the website after my test though, so that was good.

I like how they just make up whatever bullshit sounds good.

It's actually even more confusing than that, because several manufacturers use the same model numbers for their own plates. So given the example of "3610", there are more than one manufacturer using that numerical designation for a plate model, even though they are different plates. Most of the bigger manufacturers have all switched to 3400, 3600, 3610, and so on numbering systems, for reasons that make little sense to me, unless it's intentional obfuscation.

So, is it that armor tested wasn't really AR500, or that the AR500 testest wasn't the same as they are selling?

I'm saying that the NIJ certs listed on the compliance site are from another manufacturer and most likely are Tencate plates.

You said + or - 50. That means actually more than what they are saying. + or - 50 means starting with 0 it can vary as much as +50 or -50. So it would be a 100 point variation.

Also equal brinnel hardness or Rockwell hardness can be equal across the surface of the steel  if fabricated with the new explosion injection process there using to make these new knife steels. They explosion inject the molten steel into form. Look it up its call cpm or something like that. I've only read a few articles on it. Keeping in mind though that I'm sure this isn't how this metal is made. Just speaking for the fact a process is available to solve that problem that is fairly simple.

So, not ar500?

That's fucking gay.

Damn, that's some shady shit

I'm caught up with the 6 pages. Very interesting information when you go deeper into heat, bends, steel sources, etc.!
Thanks!!!

Added this pic to OP:

The hardness was checked at 4 places on the plate, variance was +/- 1 point.

 

^^ At least in the sampling I had. In order to cast out any doubt, I'd need a perfectly flat and uncoated plate.  As 10mm mentioned, I had an AR500A III+ plate checked at work for Hardness (Rockwell). 4 random spots were checked and variation was +/- 1 point.