Just in case there's some device out there that doesn't HTML5. I guess.


Spoiler: It's armor. You don't really have to watch the video. I got some plates from The Target Man / Spartan Armor systems and I want to know what you think I should shoot it with. This plate is a brand new product from them and I have only seen one video on YouTube testing this particular plate (same guy did two videos, but one was just pistol ammo). Lots of tests of their earlier products, of course, but not much for this one so I want to hear what you want to see. They call it a "level 3+" plate. Now, level III is a NIJ rating and typically a "III+" plate from another manufacturer would be a level III plate that has been independently certified to meet that standard and additionally protect against special threats. My personal opinion is that the base level that a plate should meet to be considered III+ is that it stops M193 from at least a 16" barrel at close range so I will probably shoot it with M193 from a 20" barrel. Based on the testing that you've seen from myself and 10mm_ what else do you think I should use to test it? Bear in mind that there really isn't any question that it will do fine against lesser threats like pistol or 7.62x39mm. Once there is a good range of suggestions posted, I'll add a poll.



Here is the listing for that plate on their website: clicky

Wow. They cut that plate down to the bone to play the weight loss game. I would bet that the surface area is only about 60% of almost any plate of similar height x width dimensions. You might as well buy a 6"x8" torso plate and cover your heart with it.

LOL, yeah. The website says:




I'm no geographist, but I'd say there's a fair amount of lung and artery that's not protected on an average adult male's torso. Guess it's good to have options in the marketplace, though. If weight and mobility are priorities for you, this might be a good choice, but at $300 for the frag coated model, you could be a lot better off just buying two HighCom 4SAS7 level IV plates. It's hard to justify a steel plate for more than twice the cost of a composite level IV plate. It is slightly lighter than the level IV, I suppose.

Ever tested the steel plates with heavier 75 grain rounds out of a 20" barrel?

I have not. I've got some but I don't think they have much chance of getting through. Velocity is the main component in defeating steel armor and the 75 gr rounds I have do about 2,500 fps from a 16" barrel. Probably 2,700 fps or so from a 20"? But, yeah, I think it's probably worth testing. I'll probably just hit the level III plate with it, though.

Is the aggressive shoulder pocket cuts the main weight-saving strategy here?  Is there much a difference in weight between AR500 and AR550 steel?

I agree, while there's a whole lot of respiratory real estate that's not protected, I supposed the idea is a pneumothorax is more survivable than a hit to the heart or one of the great arteries.

I don't think there is any weight difference.

Can you elaborate?

The only significant difference between AR500 and AR550 is in the crystalline structure of the steel. Both are  iron, carbon, nickel and trace elements so the weight for a given volume shouldn't be noticeably different. They may even be the same alloy.

Oh, you meant the difference  in steels. Not the difference in cuts. I see now.

Yes, the cut obviously makes a big difference.

hit it with some m193 to see if it really is 3+ as most 3 will fail.

Then for fun poke some holes in it with M2AP to give it a test to failure

Yeah, 20" (then 18", 16", 14.5", 11.5" until it stops) M193 is definitely the top of the list. There is no NIJ standard for III+, but I think that if you want to call your plate III+, it had better at LEAST stop M193 from a 16" barrel at inside the room distance. I'd prefer that it be able to reliably stop M193 from a 20" barrel at 10 feet.

A friend of mine has some M2AP but I won't hit it with that until I've tried a lot of other stuff.

I saw a video recently on you tube where they shot level 3 plate in a plate carrier with xm193. While the bullet penetrated the steel  the carrier  caught what went through.  Just some food for thought.

I believe you may have misinterpreted the results of that video. I have seen several tests that indicate that a good plate carrier might stop the majority of the fragments from one or two rounds impacting an uncoated level III plate. I'm also confident that any gear in front of the plate like a magazine is likely to slow the bullet and yaw it enough that the plate could stop it. I find it very difficult to believe that a nylon plate carrier could stop the high velocity chunk of hardened steel that is dislodged from a plate when it fails. 10mm_ published a test where a plate is backed by a level IIIA ballistic panel and a gel block. The steel fragments penetrated the ballistic panel and penetrated what appears to be a good 14" or so of gel.




Now, granted, there are a lot of different kinds of plates out there, but from the testing I've seen, it looks like the failure mode of a steel plate is that the bullet loads a section of plate with force and if it exceeds the shear strength of that section, it gives way, with the majority of the energy of the energy being transferred to the plug of steel that was popped out of the plate. Almost like some kind of perverse Newton's cradle.

For as much plate that was taken off, how much do those weigh?

Eta. I see it says 6 and 6.7 respectively. Still heavy for little coverage.

I don't believe it.

Sorry, but I have put quite a few rounds of M193 into AR500 in controlled testing environments. In some cases, you couldn't drill a cleaner hole and the bullet had plenty of zip left on it to achieve deep penetrate into the wearer. Cordura or other nylon fabrics would be like wet toilet paper against that.

I can't prove it, but I think that traditional copper jacketed lead core bullets are pulverized at impact and that it is only pieces of steel that continue down range.


ETA: Pieces of steel that will positively fuck your shit up, but just steel, not bullet.

I picked both lead and steel out of the gel, both went over 12"

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Still kinda what I was getting at, though.

Wow, that is really interesting. Thanks for posting. I notice he said they were sitting at 25 yards. It seems that they hurt exactly the velocity at which most rounds are stopped but the few that get through, barely do so. I really believed that when the steel let go, it would always have a good deal of energy in it.

It seems we are back to just making shit up about armor in the gear section again.

Lead and copper bullets do not "pulverize" and you would not enjoy the results of being behind a steel plate penetration.

That is not M193. That is ordinary ammo poking holes in that plate.

I tried a 77gr vs the Level III plate out of a 22", no dice.

 

I think you misunderstood my point. The video posted above is not typical for armor failures. In the tests I've seen from 10mm_ and my own testing, there is a lot of energy in the material that leaves the back of the plate. The bullet does seem to usually be smashed into tiny pieces, though. I want even sure if the pieces were making it through the plate out of it was just big chunks of steel that were coming out, but that's really just academic. The bottom line is that if you exceed the rating of armor, the wearer can have a very bad day.