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Posted: 9/23/2014 4:21:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Plenty of other good vendors out there to not have to deal with somebody like that.
Nothing wrong with steel armor as long as you're aware of what you're getting. It'll stop just about everything except really really fast moving 556 from close range. It's also heavy. |
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Posted: 9/23/2014 4:24:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Although I know folks look down on steel plates, but I’m checking into various steel body armor plates, but there are several different anti-spalling agents out there. There is Paxcon and Rhino and Line X and others. If my information is correct, one’s anti-spalling covering is nothing more than truck bed liner. I contact one company, Body Armor Megastore, and ask them the name of their coating. Their response is that it is a “trade secret.” They write, “Too many competitors trying to get that information off me as they realize my solution is better and want to copy.” So everyone buy from them. There anti-spalling is so great, so much better than everyone else’s, it is a national secret! I bet the Chinese are trying to steal the secret as we speak! Thanks but no thank Body Armor Megastore. I'll look somewhere else. I would think the money spent on steel plates with anti-spall coatings of potentially dubious worth would be better spent on buying steel plates without such coatings, that were painted properly, and also IIIA soft armor plate backers. Radiusing all edges of the plate, so that it will not wear holes in your expensive plate carrier ought to be standard procedure, IMHO. No expert, but glass-bead blasting of these plates provides a perfect surface for paint adherence, as well as contributing a certain amount of surface-hardening. It might be well to ask the mfr if these procedures were performed on your plates. If not, was there compelling reason to not do so? The proper construction/materials of the soft armor plate backers is much more easily verified than some "secret", proprietary anti-spall coating. There are any numbers of mfrs and vendors, so deals can be found, if you have patience. If your plate carrier does not have a separate compartment into which a plate backer can be inserted, then consider a better grade of PC. |
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Posted: 9/23/2014 4:46:10 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would think the money spent on steel plates with anti-spall coatings of potentially dubious worth would be better spent on buying steel plates without such coatings, that were painted properly, and also IIIA soft armor plate backers. Radiusing all edges of the plate, so that it will not wear holes in your expensive plate carrier ought to be standard procedure, IMHO. No expert, but glass-bead blasting of these plates provides a perfect surface for paint adherence, as well as contributing a certain amount of surface-hardening. It might be well to ask the mfr if these procedures were performed on your plates. If not, was there compelling reason to not do so? The proper construction/materials of the soft armor plate backers is much more easily verified than some "secret", proprietary anti-spall coating. There are any numbers of mfrs and vendors, so deals can be found, if you have patience. If your plate carrier does not have a separate compartment into which a plate backer can be inserted, then consider a better grade of PC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Although I know folks look down on steel plates, but I’m checking into various steel body armor plates, but there are several different anti-spalling agents out there. There is Paxcon and Rhino and Line X and others. If my information is correct, one’s anti-spalling covering is nothing more than truck bed liner. I contact one company, Body Armor Megastore, and ask them the name of their coating. Their response is that it is a “trade secret.” They write, “Too many competitors trying to get that information off me as they realize my solution is better and want to copy.” So everyone buy from them. There anti-spalling is so great, so much better than everyone else’s, it is a national secret! I bet the Chinese are trying to steal the secret as we speak! Thanks but no thank Body Armor Megastore. I'll look somewhere else. I would think the money spent on steel plates with anti-spall coatings of potentially dubious worth would be better spent on buying steel plates without such coatings, that were painted properly, and also IIIA soft armor plate backers. Radiusing all edges of the plate, so that it will not wear holes in your expensive plate carrier ought to be standard procedure, IMHO. No expert, but glass-bead blasting of these plates provides a perfect surface for paint adherence, as well as contributing a certain amount of surface-hardening. It might be well to ask the mfr if these procedures were performed on your plates. If not, was there compelling reason to not do so? The proper construction/materials of the soft armor plate backers is much more easily verified than some "secret", proprietary anti-spall coating. There are any numbers of mfrs and vendors, so deals can be found, if you have patience. If your plate carrier does not have a separate compartment into which a plate backer can be inserted, then consider a better grade of PC. Is that what is called "Spall Armor" or "Spall Liner Blocker?" A link for some is here http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spall-Armor-Spall-Liner-Blockers-of-Spall-10x12-AR500-Steel-Plates-Pair-/231334378882?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35dc9a7d82 |
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Posted: 9/23/2014 5:23:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that what is called "Spall Armor" or "Spall Liner Blocker?" A link for some is here http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spall-Armor-Spall-Liner-Blockers-of-Spall-10x12-AR500-Steel-Plates-Pair-/231334378882?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35dc9a7d82 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Although I know folks look down on steel plates, but I’m checking into various steel body armor plates, but there are several different anti-spalling agents out there. There is Paxcon and Rhino and Line X and others. If my information is correct, one’s anti-spalling covering is nothing more than truck bed liner. I contact one company, Body Armor Megastore, and ask them the name of their coating. Their response is that it is a “trade secret.” They write, “Too many competitors trying to get that information off me as they realize my solution is better and want to copy.” So everyone buy from them. There anti-spalling is so great, so much better than everyone else’s, it is a national secret! I bet the Chinese are trying to steal the secret as we speak! Thanks but no thank Body Armor Megastore. I'll look somewhere else. I would think the money spent on steel plates with anti-spall coatings of potentially dubious worth would be better spent on buying steel plates without such coatings, that were painted properly, and also IIIA soft armor plate backers. Radiusing all edges of the plate, so that it will not wear holes in your expensive plate carrier ought to be standard procedure, IMHO. No expert, but glass-bead blasting of these plates provides a perfect surface for paint adherence, as well as contributing a certain amount of surface-hardening. It might be well to ask the mfr if these procedures were performed on your plates. If not, was there compelling reason to not do so? The proper construction/materials of the soft armor plate backers is much more easily verified than some "secret", proprietary anti-spall coating. There are any numbers of mfrs and vendors, so deals can be found, if you have patience. If your plate carrier does not have a separate compartment into which a plate backer can be inserted, then consider a better grade of PC. Is that what is called "Spall Armor" or "Spall Liner Blocker?" A link for some is here http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spall-Armor-Spall-Liner-Blockers-of-Spall-10x12-AR500-Steel-Plates-Pair-/231334378882?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35dc9a7d82 Well, your item linked is something new to me. Spall generally occurs from the back side of the plate (side nearest the user). and the plate-backers I suggested seem to be quite different from the linked item, which the vendor specifically states are to be worn in front of the steel plate. How these items protect the user against spall occurring on the back of the plate is something unknown to me. First time I've seen such a thing. Again, no expert on these things, but it sounds a little counter-intuitive, not to mention that no mention is made as to the protection level offered by the linked items. Possibly of some use against some ricochets from the steel plate but no objective testing proving such. That said, here is a link to bona-fide hard-armor backers:http://www.skdtac.com/Velocity-Systems-Soft-Armor-Plate-Backers-p/amr.100.htm. Note that the vendor specifically states a certified protection level. These inserts can be worn alone, and will stand up to 9mm and frag. Quite a difference compared to the unspecified level of protection of the linked items. Note also that such backers are intended to be worn in between the plates and the user in a separate pocket in the plate carrier. The items offered by SKD are more expensive, but how much is your life worth? I understand that some folks buy steel plates for their economy. I wonder if that might not so much of an economy if the initial economical steel plate purchase price was considered in conjunction with other items, such as soft-armor plate backers/anti-spall protectors, that might be virtually required in order to achieve the level of protection touted by the steel plate mfrs/vendors. Leaving aside ricochets from steel plates, and how such might affect the wearer of same, the issue of spall from the rear of the plates is something the wearer should consider, but something seldom discussed by mfrs/vendors of steel plates. IOW, the cost of soft armor backers, of verifiable protection level should also be considered in the purchase price of steel plates, IMHO. FWIW, and AFAIK, the Mil does not use steel plates. Granted, the cost is not an object, but the protection level is. Please don't think that I am ragging on you, or anything like that. Just bloviating, and I'm no expert on these things. Full disclosure: I went with Lvl IV ceramic plates., which I bought on a group buy by from SKD. Call me biased, if you wish. |
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Posted: 9/24/2014 8:39:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Plenty of other good vendors out there to not have to deal with somebody like that. Nothing wrong with steel armor as long as you're aware of what you're getting. It'll stop just about everything except really really fast moving 556 from close range. It's also heavy. My thoughts, too. How they think not telling me what is on their plates is acceptable is beyond me. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 7:10:59 PM EDT
[#6]
I understand the purpose of the forum, to allow for open and seemingly honest opinions. Unfortunately as a business owner it’s frustrating having to defend myself based on these types of malicious attacks.
What the moderators and opinion-haters fail to realize is that their comments can be damaging to a business. Shame on you trolls. I feel it’s necessary to explain why we claim our solution is proprietary or a trade secret. I'm sad to say that within the AR500 Steel Body Armor Sellers Community (Mouth full) we have some shady characters operating; claiming to be wholesome. Without adding too much to the slander which started by the creation of this thread, (2) of the 8-10 major suppliers come from dubious beginnings. Company 1: Allegedly stole sourcing paperwork off the desk of their existing supplier to then go up line to source direct. -They also trademarked a common term used for describing this armor and maliciously attacked other sellers. Wheedling this TM, they have attempted to ban the use of this term by competitors to describe their listing on auction sites. Company 2: Ordered a single plate from TTM and then recreated an exact replica to start competitively selling. -https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=234054920051016&story_fbid=403939519729221 SO you can see why I'm a little hesitant giving out the information. If you had called I would have gladly supplied that information. I would have also appreciated the ability to give my consent if you intended to share this information on the internet. For the record we use a product provided by a spinoff company from DuPont called Axalta; product name Elite Shield. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 7:12:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Edited...VA-gunnut
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Posted: 10/21/2014 7:52:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Geez OP, there are plenty of options. If you aren't comfortable with body armor mega store, go somewhere else. Wanting to keep material composition proprietary is a valid reason. If that makes you uncomfortable, buy somewhere else. Trashing a business is unwarranted.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:16:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
*snip* Maybe remove personal information like names? And why would you be able to discuss the coating details over the phone, but not via an email exchange? |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:20:39 PM EDT
[#10]
nobody discusses their coating formulas. that's common knowledge. it used to be just rhino liner with everybody. now it's way more advanced.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:24:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Sounds to me like body Armor made a credible response.
Buy from them if you choose, or someone else. FWIW, I chose stand-alone ceramic plates. YMMV. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 11:16:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand the purpose of the forum, to allow for open and seemingly honest opinions. Unfortunately as a business owner it’s frustrating having to defend myself based on these types of malicious attacks. What the moderators and opinion-haters fail to realize is that their comments can be damaging to a business. Shame on you trolls. I feel it’s necessary to explain why we claim our solution is proprietary or a trade secret. I'm sad to say that within the AR500 Steel Body Armor Sellers Community (Mouth full) we have some shady characters operating; claiming to be wholesome. Without adding too much to the slander which started by the creation of this thread, (2) of the 8-10 major suppliers come from dubious beginnings. Company 1: Allegedly stole sourcing paperwork off the desk of their existing supplier to then go up line to source direct. -They also trademarked a common term used for describing this armor and maliciously attacked other sellers. Wheedling this TM, they have attempted to ban the use of this term by competitors to describe their listing on auction sites. Company 2: Ordered a single plate from TTM and then recreated an exact replica to start competitively selling. -https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=234054920051016&story_fbid=403939519729221 SO you can see why I'm a little hesitant giving out the information. If you had called I would have gladly supplied that information. I would have also appreciated the ability to give my consent if you intended to share this information on the internet. For the record we use a product provided by a spinoff company from DuPont called Axalta; product name Elite Shield. As the forum can see, you DID NOT tell me the name of the spalling agent, just that it was made by DuPont. Wow, made by DuPont, that really narrows it down! Now you are discussing the issue in an open forum and providing the name of the product that was too secret to tell me. Why didn't you just tell me the name of the product so I could compare it to others like Rhino? Why WAS it "trade secret" and now you publish it in an open forum? If you have companies stealing your corporate "trade secrets," why have you not had your attorney send a cease and desist letter to the offending company? Maybe because DuPont sells the product to anyone; It isn't a "secret." Heck, anyone can buy AR500 unfinished plates and apply their own anti-spalling agent, your "trade secret" application, without having to go through you. Is that a wise move? By the way, thanks to the good advice of ARFCOM I've ordered some ceramic, Level IV plates. I'll let ARFCOM decide if they want to deal with you. All I know is, I would have let it lie because now you have hundreds of people who are reading about this, talking with others about this, and seeing how the Body Armor Super Store deals with its' potential customers. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 11:27:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Geez OP, there are plenty of options. If you aren't comfortable with body armor mega store, go somewhere else. Wanting to keep material composition proprietary is a valid reason. If that makes you uncomfortable, buy somewhere else. Trashing a business is unwarranted. A business has CHOSEN to post our personal, private emails. I'll leave it to you if you want to do business with such a company. There is NOTHING I've posted that isn't true. Why "trash" them? Because their response was so silly. There "trade secret" is so secret, they are now giving the entire site the name of the agent they use. Oh, and the "trade secret" belongs to DuPont, not to Body Armor Megastore. I wonder if they told us the real name of their anti-spalling agent? If they did they are doing this even though they supposedly have trouble with competitors stealing their "trade secret." If they didn't, then they aren't being honest with ARFCOM. I'll let you decide. AR500 and the other company (can't remember, think it was like CATI Armor) tell you the name of their anti-spalling agent. I don't know about you, qwerty4, but I want to hear from other ARFCOMers about what their experiences are with companies so I know which ones to buy from, such as AIM. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:31:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As the forum can see, you DID NOT tell me the name of the spalling agent, just that it was made by DuPont. Wow, made by DuPont, that really narrows it down! Now you are discussing the issue in an open forum and providing the name of the product that was too secret to tell me. Why didn't you just tell me the name of the product so I could compare it to others like Rhino? Why WAS it "trade secret" and now you publish it in an open forum? If you have companies stealing your corporate "trade secrets," why have you not had your attorney send a cease and desist letter to the offending company? Maybe because DuPont sells the product to anyone; It isn't a "secret." Heck, anyone can buy AR500 unfinished plates and apply their own anti-spalling agent, your "trade secret" application, without having to go through you. Is that a wise move? By the way, thanks to the good advice of ARFCOM I've ordered some ceramic, Level IV plates. I'll let ARFCOM decide if they want to deal with you. All I know is, I would have let it lie because now you have hundreds of people who are reading about this, talking with others about this, and seeing how the Body Armor Super Store deals with its' potential customers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I understand the purpose of the forum, to allow for open and seemingly honest opinions. Unfortunately as a business owner it’s frustrating having to defend myself based on these types of malicious attacks. What the moderators and opinion-haters fail to realize is that their comments can be damaging to a business. Shame on you trolls. I feel it’s necessary to explain why we claim our solution is proprietary or a trade secret. I'm sad to say that within the AR500 Steel Body Armor Sellers Community (Mouth full) we have some shady characters operating; claiming to be wholesome. Without adding too much to the slander which started by the creation of this thread, (2) of the 8-10 major suppliers come from dubious beginnings. Company 1: Allegedly stole sourcing paperwork off the desk of their existing supplier to then go up line to source direct. -They also trademarked a common term used for describing this armor and maliciously attacked other sellers. Wheedling this TM, they have attempted to ban the use of this term by competitors to describe their listing on auction sites. Company 2: Ordered a single plate from TTM and then recreated an exact replica to start competitively selling. -https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=234054920051016&story_fbid=403939519729221 SO you can see why I'm a little hesitant giving out the information. If you had called I would have gladly supplied that information. I would have also appreciated the ability to give my consent if you intended to share this information on the internet. For the record we use a product provided by a spinoff company from DuPont called Axalta; product name Elite Shield. As the forum can see, you DID NOT tell me the name of the spalling agent, just that it was made by DuPont. Wow, made by DuPont, that really narrows it down! Now you are discussing the issue in an open forum and providing the name of the product that was too secret to tell me. Why didn't you just tell me the name of the product so I could compare it to others like Rhino? Why WAS it "trade secret" and now you publish it in an open forum? If you have companies stealing your corporate "trade secrets," why have you not had your attorney send a cease and desist letter to the offending company? Maybe because DuPont sells the product to anyone; It isn't a "secret." Heck, anyone can buy AR500 unfinished plates and apply their own anti-spalling agent, your "trade secret" application, without having to go through you. Is that a wise move? By the way, thanks to the good advice of ARFCOM I've ordered some ceramic, Level IV plates. I'll let ARFCOM decide if they want to deal with you. All I know is, I would have let it lie because now you have hundreds of people who are reading about this, talking with others about this, and seeing how the Body Armor Super Store deals with its' potential customers. Bro.....you are reading way to into this shit.......switch to decaf already.....wtf |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:49:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Let me see if I'm tracking you OP: You asked an academic question of a manufacturer, which they politely declined as they felt that the information was sensitive. You then blasted them on a public forum because you didn't get the answer you felt like you were entitled to. I get wanting to research a product before you buy it, but it's a frickin' metal plate with stuff on it. Are your ops so black and speed so high, that the exact chemical makeup of the coating on value oriented body is that important? Wrapping an AR500 plate in duct tape would surely give you a few rounds worth of spall mitigatation and whatever the manufacturer is using is probably better than tape-be it Line-x, Rhino Lining or some secret DuPont compound diluted with unicorn jazz... Your question was academic minutiae, to put it nicely. The manufacturer declined to answer your irrelevant question as he felt that indulging your wonderings would expose him to infringement. You trashed the guy in a public forum. You then object to him posting "personal, private emails" in an effort to defend himself against the attack you launched. All this because you perceived their reasonable response to your irrelevant question as "silly", so you could then ultimately buy level IV plates? 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:53:31 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let me see if I'm tracking you OP: You asked an academic question of a manufacturer, which they politely declined as they felt that the information was sensitive. You then blasted them on a public forum because you didn't get the answer you felt like you were entitled to. I get wanting to research a product before you buy it, but it's a frickin' metal plate with stuff on it. Are your ops so black and speed so high, that the exact chemical makeup of the coating on value oriented body is that important? Wrapping an AR500 plate in duct tape would surely give you a few rounds worth of spall mitigatation and whatever the manufacturer is using is probably better than tape-be it Line-x, Rhino Lining or some secret DuPont compound diluted with unicorn jazz... Your question was academic minutiae, to put it nicely. The manufacturer declined to answer your irrelevant question as he felt that indulging your wonderings would expose him to infringement. You trashed the guy in a public forum. You then object to him posting "personal, private emails" in an effort to defend himself against the attack you launched. All this because you perceived their reasonable response to your irrelevant question as "silly", so you could then ultimately buy level IV plates?
I didn't trash him. Was I a smart aleck? Yep. But I thought his answer was silly and I still do and the fact that he just posted what the anti-spalling agent is clearly demonstrates it isn't a "trade secret." By the way, if he is afraid of exposing himself to infringement, why did he just post what his anti-spalling agent was (Per his post "Axalta; product name Elite Shield.")? Everyone else was posting they were using Rhino and several other anti-spalling agents. He was the only one who claimed it was a "trade secret" and would tell me nothing about it. I asked what the name of the agent was because some claim "Made specifically for spall mitigation; not like other listing who use truck bed liners." So some are allegedly using truck bed liners. I don't know if it is true or not. But the one claiming that was...Body Armor Megastore (see http://www.ebay.com/itm/Body-Armor-AR500-Steel-Plates-Base-Frag-Coating-Level-III-10x12-PAIR-/331346327576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d25c7b818) I myself like to hear info from other ARFCOMERS their interactions with other companies so that I can decide which perform good customer service, such as AIM, and those who don't. If you'd like to do business with him, please feel free to. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:20:05 PM EDT
[#17]
It's a piece of metal designed to stop a piece of metal, covered with a substance to contain pieces of stopped metal. Again, duct tape or even a heavy enough carrier could mitigate spalling for a few shots. These are price-point products geared towards civilian shooters and hobbyists. What possible difference could it make what they are coated with, so long as there is something to mitigate the spalling from a few strikes? You were shopping for some of the cheapest armor available and then trying to nit-pick minute details that have zero impact on your daily life. You aren't operating operationally with a SMU in AFG, otherwise you wouldn't be shopping for bargain body armor online. Meanwhile, you expect this guy to divulge information that he believes can hurt his livelihood to satisfy your curiousity. Why not request a third party metallurgical analysis of his plates too? I guess I'm puzzled as to why someone would seek out some of the cheapest and most problematic armor available online, then nitpick the spall liner and then nitpick the companies response...
Sounds like he divulged more than he felt comfortable sharing initially because some Yelper blasted him on a public forum and he was making a good faith attempt to clear the air. I appreciate sharing experiences with the community, but you blasted this guy unfairly and then purchased a different product. What you shared here wasn't a good faith review of a companies product/service, it was just vindictive and petty. They did nothing to harm you. However, you harmed them when you trashed them in public and bought elsewhere. For what? Because they wouldn't satisfy your academic curiosity? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 6:00:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a piece of metal designed to stop a piece of metal, covered with a substance to contain pieces of stopped metal. Again, duct tape or even a heavy enough carrier could mitigate spalling for a few shots. These are price-point products geared towards civilian shooters and hobbyists. What possible difference could it make what they are coated with, so long as there is something to mitigate the spalling from a few strikes? You were shopping for some of the cheapest armor available and then trying to nit-pick minute details that have zero impact on your daily life. You aren't operating operationally with a SMU in AFG, otherwise you wouldn't be shopping for bargain body armor online. Meanwhile, you expect this guy to divulge information that he believes can hurt his livelihood to satisfy your curiousity. Why not request a third party metallurgical analysis of his plates too? I guess I'm puzzled as to why someone would seek out some of the cheapest and most problematic armor available online, then nitpick the spall liner and then nitpick the companies response... Sounds like he divulged more than he felt comfortable sharing initially because some Yelper blasted him on a public forum and he was making a good faith attempt to clear the air. I appreciate sharing experiences with the community, but you blasted this guy unfairly and then purchased a different product. What you shared here wasn't a good faith review of a companies product/service, it was just vindictive and petty. They did nothing to harm you. However, you harmed them when you trashed them in public and bought elsewhere. For what? Because they wouldn't satisfy your academic curiosity? BAM made the claim in their Ebay ad that some companies are using truck bed liners. This is what got me started on the issue of what kind of anti-spalling agent it was. I just asked the name, not the chemical formula. One of the two reasons I passed on buying metal plates is that, when it comes down to it, you can't tell anything about the anti-spalling covering, what works, what is the best. I was in the Army long before these items because available for everyday use. So I'm a novice. When I learned about the steel plates (I'm not knocking them steel fans) I decided the best were the ceramic. Again, if his information was such a secret, why did he just put it in a public forum? I didn't appreciate the flippant "trade secret" answer. I know ARFCOM is very pro-business, but his claim of a "trade secret" was not honest. Does he have a patent? No, he buys it off the shelf, which I have no problem with. The problem I have is him wanting to claim others are using truck bed liners in their products and claiming that others are out there trying to steal his business secrets, but I'm supposed to trust him on faith and buy from him. Excuse me, but could anyone with a metal background start cutting plates and putting some anti-spalling agent on them? Is there any business secret that I'm missing? Would you appreciate it if you bought a name brand AR and found that the FCG and other internals were of a lesser quality maker? How do you feel when you buy a name label at the store only to find it is made in the same factory as the generic? If you want to buy from him or encourage his type of answer when you to buy a product from someone, so be it. But I bet when you ask someone for the basic specs that they put into a product you want to buy, you won't accept "Sorry, that is secret information." Let's just agree to disagree. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 6:17:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Call it a John Willis attitude, but I like that you got called out. You're acting like a child whining about not getting your way. You asked a question and got an answer. From a business standpoint, why would I tell someone what I used to coat my plates? Everyone is jumping on the AR500 bandwagon cutting and coating plates. So why put that info out there for someone else to grab. If you're going to complain about a business without a serious complaint, keep your mouth shut, you won't get sympathy from people on here.
Body Armor was nice enough to come here and attempt to rectify the situation. You should realize that not many companies would do that. In any case I'm done with my rant. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:03:44 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Call it a John Willis attitude, but I like that you got called out. You're acting like a child whining about not getting your way. You asked a question and got an answer. From a business standpoint, why would I tell someone what I used to coat my plates? Everyone is jumping on the AR500 bandwagon cutting and coating plates. So why put that info out there for someone else to grab. If you're going to complain about a business without a serious complaint, keep your mouth shut, you won't get sympathy from people on here. Body Armor was nice enough to come here and attempt to rectify the situation. You should realize that not many companies would do that. In any case I'm done with my rant. (Golf Clap) Well said. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 10:28:58 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Call it a John Willis attitude, but I like that you got called out. You're acting like a child whining about not getting your way. You asked a question and got an answer. From a business standpoint, why would I tell someone what I used to coat my plates? Everyone is jumping on the AR500 bandwagon cutting and coating plates. So why put that info out there for someone else to grab. If you're going to complain about a business without a serious complaint, keep your mouth shut, you won't get sympathy from people on here. Body Armor was nice enough to come here and attempt to rectify the situation. You should realize that not many companies would do that. In any case I'm done with my rant. Not getting my way because I want them to tell me, a potential customer, what coating they use on a product designed to potentially save my life, just like the other companies I looked at did. AR500 did. CATI did. There was another that told...can't remember their name. And this is after Body Armor Megastore accuses (on Ebay) competitors of using the same material used in truck beds? Yea, your right. I should have just made my order and thanked them for selling to me. Yeah, whatever. Sympathy, nope, just telling my experience with a company. I figured some small business owners would come to their defense. I'm sure BAM is looking forward to your order. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 10:31:32 PM EDT
[#22]
While I am no fan of gong targets for armor, I do not know of very many armor manufacturers that would divulge the composition of their plates other than to say something like "ceramic and PE".
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Posted: 10/25/2014 11:30:17 PM EDT
[#23]
I don't see what the big deal is about spalling.
Does anyone know of a person being killed or seriously wounded by spalling? |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 2:20:50 AM EDT
[#24]
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I don't see what the big deal is about spalling. Does anyone know of a person being killed or seriously wounded by spalling? I really doubt that anybody has documented the use of steel armor to know whether "spall" will kill the wearer. But I do know that when I shoot at my steel targets, the wood frame gets chewed up by bullet splatter. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 2:45:44 AM EDT
[#25]
You are so concerned with saving your life, yet you are shopping for the cheapest and most problematic PPE you can find
You don't question the efficacy of the coating, only the composition. You called AR500, CATI and BAM asking about the composition of their liners, yet you don't mention ever asking for a metalurgical evaluation of the plate itself. It would seem that someone so concerned about minutiae, would insist on verifying the metalurgical composition of the plate, instead of inquiring as to what the plate is coated in. You took each manufacturer at their word that the plates they were offering were AR500 suitable for use as armor, but then questioned the name/composition of the liner?
You called a company that sells a budget item to civilian enthusiasts and demanded that they disclose information they felt was sensitive. Because they didn't accomidate your irrelevant and ultimately unreasonable request, you bus rolled the in a public forum. Based on the posted correspondence, BAM acted in good faith trying to answer your questions in a polite and professional manner, even inviting you to call to discuss your concerns, yet you chose to attempt to injure their reputation. This isn't Yelp, bro. I think you should retract/delete your comments, but that's just my .02 And no, I'm not a customer or even a potential customer of BAM. I'm also not a guy that would call WalMart asking for the recipe for Dr. Thunder, get all butthurt when they predictably told me to pound sand, then blast them online so that I could ultimately buy Dr. Pepper...
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:54:43 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really doubt that anybody has documented the use of steel armor to know whether "spall" will kill the wearer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't see what the big deal is about spalling. Does anyone know of a person being killed or seriously wounded by spalling? I really doubt that anybody has documented the use of steel armor to know whether "spall" will kill the wearer. Why? |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:56:04 AM EDT
[#27]
double tap (PLEASE DELETE)
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:02:30 AM EDT
[#28]
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(Golf Clap) Well said. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Call it a John Willis attitude, but I like that you got called out. You're acting like a child whining about not getting your way. You asked a question and got an answer. From a business standpoint, why would I tell someone what I used to coat my plates? Everyone is jumping on the AR500 bandwagon cutting and coating plates. So why put that info out there for someone else to grab. If you're going to complain about a business without a serious complaint, keep your mouth shut, you won't get sympathy from people on here. Body Armor was nice enough to come here and attempt to rectify the situation. You should realize that not many companies would do that. In any case I'm done with my rant. (Golf Clap) Well said. x2 (Golf Clap) Indeed. There is a better video somewhere with ballistics Gel... It would stand to reason this taking place near your throat, armpits, or groin area would cause unpleasantness if not shrapnel wound and possibly arterial bleeding... [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltAMarQnmOc [/youtube] |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:21:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are so concerned with saving your life, yet you are shopping for the cheapest and most problematic PPE you can find
You don't question the efficacy of the coating, only the composition. You called AR500, CATI and BAM asking about the composition of their liners, yet you don't mention ever asking for a metalurgical evaluation of the plate itself. It would seem that someone so concerned about minutiae, would insist on verifying the metalurgical composition of the plate, instead of inquiring as to what the plate is coated in. You took each manufacturer at their word that the plates they were offering were AR500 suitable for use as armor, but then questioned the name/composition of the liner?
You called a company that sells a budget item to civilian enthusiasts and demanded that they disclose information they felt was sensitive. Because they didn't accomidate your irrelevant and ultimately unreasonable request, you bus rolled the in a public forum. Based on the posted correspondence, BAM acted in good faith trying to answer your questions in a polite and professional manner, even inviting you to call to discuss your concerns, yet you chose to attempt to injure their reputation. This isn't Yelp, bro. I think you should retract/delete your comments, but that's just my .02 And no, I'm not a customer or even a potential customer of BAM. I'm also not a guy that would call WalMart asking for the recipe for Dr. Thunder, get all butthurt when they predictably told me to pound sand, then blast them online so that I could ultimately buy Dr. Pepper... I was wondering the same thing. Great post! |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:33:17 AM EDT
[#30]
It's not a hard thing to consider, steel can stop some rounds, and this stuff is better than nothing in some cases.
The caviats are as follows: What will the plate specified stop? Who has verified the performance? Have you tested you plate against the common .mil rounds in the us inside close contact ranges? It's not difficult to see the effects of spalling. Setting a plate at 90 deg supported on top or below ballistic gel will show captured spall and the effects and depth if penetration. I know from non scientific testing that spall from a steel plate has no issue penetrating a steel drum and still moving, my chin, face, neck and lower abdominal are not as resilient as a steel drum. Is it guaranteed to kill you, no. But spall can kill you or ruin you day just the same. I like that Americans are becoming more prepared, but there is responsibility and learning that is needed to ensure that your efforts will be fruitful. Thanks to the internet the razor sharp learning curve can be softened. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:57:12 AM EDT
[#31]
OP needs some fresh air.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 2:37:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was wondering the same thing. Great post! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You are so concerned with saving your life, yet you are shopping for the cheapest and most problematic PPE you can find
You don't question the efficacy of the coating, only the composition. You called AR500, CATI and BAM asking about the composition of their liners, yet you don't mention ever asking for a metalurgical evaluation of the plate itself. It would seem that someone so concerned about minutiae, would insist on verifying the metalurgical composition of the plate, instead of inquiring as to what the plate is coated in. You took each manufacturer at their word that the plates they were offering were AR500 suitable for use as armor, but then questioned the name/composition of the liner?
You called a company that sells a budget item to civilian enthusiasts and demanded that they disclose information they felt was sensitive. Because they didn't accomidate your irrelevant and ultimately unreasonable request, you bus rolled the in a public forum. Based on the posted correspondence, BAM acted in good faith trying to answer your questions in a polite and professional manner, even inviting you to call to discuss your concerns, yet you chose to attempt to injure their reputation. This isn't Yelp, bro. I think you should retract/delete your comments, but that's just my .02 And no, I'm not a customer or even a potential customer of BAM. I'm also not a guy that would call WalMart asking for the recipe for Dr. Thunder, get all butthurt when they predictably told me to pound sand, then blast them online so that I could ultimately buy Dr. Pepper... I was wondering the same thing. Great post! Yes, I checked out the steel plates. I have no background in this area. I was in before body armor was available. And, after checking both sides of the argument, I bought ceramic plates. You still don't get that Body Armor Megastore is so very concerned about their TOP SECRET coating that they post it in this forum! And you are right, considering pretty much everyone is using AR500 plates and the only difference is the anti-spalling, how dare I ask what the coating is. After all, it could just be my health on the line. I'm sure (sarcasm) you practice this when you ask questions of business. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 2:38:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't see what the big deal is about spalling. Does anyone know of a person being killed or seriously wounded by spalling? I really doubt that anybody has documented the use of steel armor to know whether "spall" will kill the wearer. Why? Because nobody wants to get shot with an unlined steel plate (read: target) on their chest? Just a guess. But splatter dispersion and effects of said dispersion are documented. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 2:47:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because nobody wants to get shot with an unlined steel plate (read: target) on their chest? Just a guess. But splatter dispersion and effects of said dispersion are documented. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't see what the big deal is about spalling. Does anyone know of a person being killed or seriously wounded by spalling? I really doubt that anybody has documented the use of steel armor to know whether "spall" will kill the wearer. Why? Because nobody wants to get shot with an unlined steel plate (read: target) on their chest? Just a guess. But splatter dispersion and effects of said dispersion are documented. You know what really blew me away about the steel plates is that the XM193 and other high velocity rounds penetrate them! I'm going to bet that the 5.56 is the most common round people in the US would use, should things get bad, and most of them would use the XM193. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 2:57:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Quit trying to rationalize your way out of your little butthurt attempt to cost a small company business.
Just admit that you don't like hearing no, and that you expect the entire world to cater to your wants. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:02:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quit trying to rationalize your way out of your little butthurt attempt to cost a small company business. Just admit that you don't like hearing no, and that you expect the entire world to cater to your wants. The company wouldn't tell me what their coating was, when the other three did. It was such a TOP SECRET, that he (finally) posts it here, in an open forum where all of his competitors can now steal it away. The coating is key to the safety of the product and the only thing that differentiates the sellers of the AR500 plates Yea, right. I don't think we have anything to discuss. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:14:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Whilst saying nothing about the interchange(s0 between the OP and the mfr, I am of the opinion that I would like to have enough info about proprietary coatings to satisfy me that such coatings were GTG.
If the mfr was dead set on keeping the coating/process secret--and that is within their rights-- then an objective, third-party testing, with posted results would serve to ensure potential buyers that the proprietary coating did its' job properly. Now, enough of this back and forth about the coating, please. Every one has made their points, and there is nothing more to learn on that score. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:46:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whilst saying nothing about the interchange(s0 between the OP and the mfr, I am of the opinion that I would like to have enough info about proprietary coatings to satisfy me that such coatings were GTG. If the mfr was dead set on keeping the coating/process secret--and that is within their rights-- then an objective, third-party testing, with posted results would serve to ensure potential buyers that the proprietary coating did its' job properly. Now, enough of this back and forth about the coating, please. Every one has made their points, and there is nothing more to learn on that score. Noted. Standing Down. I've got a range and the capability to document an objective evaluation of their plates. I'll be more than happy to take this matter to the range and let arfcom judge the merits of BAM's liner. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:14:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because nobody wants to get shot with an unlined steel plate (read: target) on their chest? Just a guess. But splatter dispersion and effects of said dispersion are documented. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't see what the big deal is about spalling. Does anyone know of a person being killed or seriously wounded by spalling? I really doubt that anybody has documented the use of steel armor to know whether "spall" will kill the wearer. Why? Because nobody wants to get shot with an unlined steel plate (read: target) on their chest? Just a guess. But splatter dispersion and effects of said dispersion are documented. I guess I should have been more specific. I know a few dudes who have taken rounds/hits to the plates. The spalling caused minor cuts but nothing serious. Does anyone else actually know of an instance where an actual person has been killed or seriously wounded by spall? |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:36:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Noted. Standing Down. I've got a range and the capability to document an objective evaluation of their plates. I'll be more than happy to take this matter to the range and let arfcom judge the merits of BAM's liner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Whilst saying nothing about the interchange(s0 between the OP and the mfr, I am of the opinion that I would like to have enough info about proprietary coatings to satisfy me that such coatings were GTG. If the mfr was dead set on keeping the coating/process secret--and that is within their rights-- then an objective, third-party testing, with posted results would serve to ensure potential buyers that the proprietary coating did its' job properly. Now, enough of this back and forth about the coating, please. Every one has made their points, and there is nothing more to learn on that score. Noted. Standing Down. I've got a range and the capability to document an objective evaluation of their plates. I'll be more than happy to take this matter to the range and let arfcom judge the merits of BAM's liner. I know I would really enjoy seeing the results of however many different plates (BAM, AR500, CATI, etc.) that you would be willing to do. After a couple of hours, I found zero about the effectiveness of the anti-spalling agents. I even tried some scholarly databases, but nothing. The thing that finally converted me to ceramic is I read a thread where someone pointed out that that AR is the most popular rifle in the US AND the most common round is the XM193 AND steel plates won't stop XM193 or other high speed rounds at "close" distances. I'm not sure what "close" is, but it finally convinced me maybe ceramic was the way to go (no offense to the steel plate fans of ARFCOM). |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:47:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I should have been more specific. I know a few dudes who have taken rounds/hits to the plates. The spalling caused minor cuts but nothing serious. Does anyone else actually know of an instance where an actual person has been killed or seriously wounded by spall? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't see what the big deal is about spalling. Does anyone know of a person being killed or seriously wounded by spalling? I really doubt that anybody has documented the use of steel armor to know whether "spall" will kill the wearer. Why? Because nobody wants to get shot with an unlined steel plate (read: target) on their chest? Just a guess. But splatter dispersion and effects of said dispersion are documented. I guess I should have been more specific. I know a few dudes who have taken rounds/hits to the plates. The spalling caused minor cuts but nothing serious. Does anyone else actually know of an instance where an actual person has been killed or seriously wounded by spall? Mister_H, if I could ask, who were they working for/serving with when they were wearing their steel plates? I couldn't find any formal units that used steel. I thought I did with the Rangers in Somalia, but it turned out it was a steel/ceramic mixture of something. Do you know what kind of round the plates were hit with? I'm pretty new to this body armor stuff as it wasn't around when I was in and am still learning about it so any info you'd feel comfortable passing on would be appreciated. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 1:26:07 AM EDT
[#42]
I don't think you are going to find a post-incident analysis of AR500 type armor, as it's just not in use-at least not in the same way as ceramics. Extrapolation tells us that the likelyhood of sustaining serious or fatal wounds from spalling is very high and greater than a ceramic plate. A high-velocity rifle round exploding after impacting your plate is going to have any number of negative effects, ranging from "hurt" to "injured" to "he's dead, Jim". Maybe your hands get mild abrasions or maybe you take a shard of jacket/core to the throat? This risk is just something you have to assume when you use AR500 type plates.
Now, there are several ways to mitigate this phenomenon as has been discussed, but its still an underlying issue. I think manufacturers have demonstrated an ability to temporarily mitigate spalling, but there is no way to eliminate it with a steel plate. These products have their place in the civilian or hobbyiest market as they offer some rifle level protection at a cost slightly lower than some ceramic/composite systems. That being said, they just don't have the flexability or performance of modern ceramics or composites. Armor is all about compromises and there is no one cookie cutter solution that works for everybody, which is why it's so great to have the level of diversity we enjoy in the market right now. While ceramic plates have the most balanced performance, they're not without issues either. Certain level IV plates have been known to spall under certain circumstances or even out right fail if an unknown crack is exploited. Steel, ceramic or cotton-it's going to suck if you get tagged. How bad depends on an almost infinite number of variables that nobody can predict. |
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