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TCBA_Joe
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Posted: 9/15/2009 6:40:58 PM
Read this today:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/09/army_new_camo_091409w/

We talk a lot on here about camo-patterns. How bad ACU sucks, how great Multicam is, about the new AOR-1/2, and how the army needs a new pattern.

I like ACU, but it's not even close to the best pattern for it's intended "universal" purpose. We all know how great multicam is supposed to be.

Now the Army has a deadline of Sept 30th to find a new pattern after continuous complaints from soldiers about the performance of the ACU pattern.

Looking at the UCP-Delta pattern it just looks like stained ACUs. Better than the standard UCP but only marginally.

What do you THINK that the Army will field? I don't think most soldiers will be happy until we field multicam because of the cool factor if nothing else. But, will the Army really field a pattern that they didn't design in-house?

As an aside, wasn't the Army testing a set of mountain-combat ACUs? Basically the Crye combat uniforms in UCP? I think the Crye uniforms in multi-cam would be the best combat uniform the Army could issue, but we'll likely end up with just ACUs in multicam pattern.

If they do swap to Multi-cam there will be a ton of ACU pattern gear for sale CHEAP!
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
Buckeye67
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Posted: 9/15/2009 6:51:58 PM
Now I must go by some other round,
Which I shall never find.
Somewhere that does not carry the sound,
Of Four-Feet trotting behind.
-Rudyard Kipling
TCBA_Joe
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Posted: 9/15/2009 7:05:39 PM
American Flecktarn?



There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
SSeric02
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Posted: 9/15/2009 7:12:30 PM
Man, that looks like butt. You'd think they'd catch a fucking clue and take notice of what some units and organizations are choosing to wear.
imortal
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Posted: 9/15/2009 7:14:10 PM
Well, according to the Army TImes, it is down to multicam and that UCP-Delta abomonation. We'll see how it goes. We should have some sort of answer by the end of the year.
DirtyBird_08
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Posted: 9/15/2009 7:18:40 PM
That still looks like shit...
joker581
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Posted: 9/15/2009 7:28:29 PM
Originally Posted By imortal:
Well, according to the Army TImes, it is down to multicam and that UCP-Delta abomonation. We'll see how it goes. We should have some sort of answer by the end of the year.


It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.
TCBA_Joe
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Posted: 9/15/2009 7:37:33 PM
Originally Posted By joker581:
Originally Posted By imortal:
Well, according to the Army TImes, it is down to multicam and that UCP-Delta abomonation. We'll see how it goes. We should have some sort of answer by the end of the year.


It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


Yeah. Soldiers are gonna be pissed if it's UCP-D. I wonder how the commercial gear market will react to the decision? Will they drop UCP altogether like they did with Woodland or if multicam will be cheaper than now for soldiers?
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
SSeric02
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Posted: 9/15/2009 7:46:28 PM
Originally Posted By joker581:
Originally Posted By imortal:
Well, according to the Army TImes, it is down to multicam and that UCP-Delta abomonation. We'll see how it goes. We should have some sort of answer by the end of the year.


It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


You're probably right, but it's frustrating as fuck to see them keep getting this wrong. Why they have this hard-on for a "universal" pattern I don't know.
imortal
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Posted: 9/15/2009 8:21:38 PM
Originally Posted By SSeric02:
Originally Posted By joker581:
Originally Posted By imortal:
Well, according to the Army TImes, it is down to multicam and that UCP-Delta abomonation. We'll see how it goes. We should have some sort of answer by the end of the year.


It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


You're probably right, but it's frustrating as fuck to see them keep getting this wrong. Why they have this hard-on for a "universal" pattern I don't know.


It is digital- it is high-tech. It MUST be better!
Harv24
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Posted: 9/15/2009 8:28:07 PM
Joker581

It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


Sadly your are most likely correct...

We have not had a good track record of picking camo patterns since we retired the Woodland BDU's...

Just look at the original "chocolate chip" desert pattern and how they had to revise it until they got a good pattern.

starduks
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Posted: 9/15/2009 8:34:40 PM

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Joker581

It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


Sadly your are most likely correct...

We have not had a good track record of picking camo patterns since we retired the Woodland BDU's...

Just look at the original "chocolate chip" desert pattern and how they had to revise it until they got a good pattern.


the marines did good
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AK47CBR
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Posted: 9/15/2009 8:54:48 PM
Originally Posted By starduks:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Joker581

It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


Sadly your are most likely correct...

We have not had a good track record of picking camo patterns since we retired the Woodland BDU's...

Just look at the original "chocolate chip" desert pattern and how they had to revise it until they got a good pattern.


the marines did good



No shit! How is it they nailed it the first time but the Army can't figure it out after, what ten year?!
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TCBA_Joe
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Posted: 9/15/2009 8:55:35 PM
Originally Posted By starduks:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Joker581

It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


Sadly your are most likely correct...

We have not had a good track record of picking camo patterns since we retired the Woodland BDU's...

Just look at the original "chocolate chip" desert pattern and how they had to revise it until they got a good pattern.


the marines did good


Marines I believe got their patterns from the Army's original trial. Army developed the desert and woodland digital patterns but opted instead for a universal pattern. While a universal pattern is a noble goal, it's pretty unrealistic. We do need multicam in the Army. UCP has run it's course.

I still dig multicam and 3-color desert.

There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
joker581
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Posted: 9/15/2009 8:56:31 PM
Originally Posted By AK47CBR:
Originally Posted By starduks:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Joker581

It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


Sadly your are most likely correct...

We have not had a good track record of picking camo patterns since we retired the Woodland BDU's...

Just look at the original "chocolate chip" desert pattern and how they had to revise it until they got a good pattern.


the marines did good



No shit! How is it they nailed it the first time but the Army can't figure it out after, what ten year?!

The Marines never got stuck on the idea that there is such a thing as one pattern that works everywhere.
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.
TimW
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Posted: 9/15/2009 9:04:54 PM
They didn't choose MultiCam the first time they had the opportunity because it "wasn't invented here". Look for UCP-D to get the nod. Hope I am wrong, but if internal politics play into it again, MultiCam will continue to be a "special uses" camo.

Just my uneducated opinion.
TCBA_Joe
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Posted: 9/15/2009 9:13:37 PM
[Last Edit: 9/15/2009 9:14:06 PM by TCBA_Joe]
Originally Posted By TimW:
They didn't choose MultiCam the first time they had the opportunity because it "wasn't invented here". Look for UCP-D to get the nod. Hope I am wrong, but if internal politics play into it again, MultiCam will continue to be a "special uses" camo.

Just my uneducated opinion.


That's what I think. But, why won't higher listen to us. I understand why the HK416 wasn't adopted. It wasn't enough of a revolution to justify spending the money. Well, UCP-D is to UCP as M4 is to 416. It's stupid and probably while more effective than UCP, it isn't revolutionary enough to justify spending money on it.

If leadership wants to boost morale and confidence, a simple change like multicam would do wonders. We're getting commercial stuff all the time, outside contractors are developing some amazing stuff, but why can't the same be true of camouflage?
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
TCBA_Joe
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Posted: 9/15/2009 9:17:20 PM
Found this:
Awesome, it looks nearly identical to the UCP carrier underneath it.
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
ziarifleman
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Posted: 9/15/2009 9:17:54 PM
Red jackets and bearskin hats!
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SSeric02
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Posted: 9/15/2009 9:29:25 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By starduks:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Joker581

It would be awesome if they went with Multicam, but I have to believe that the Army will make the wrong choice and adopt UCP-D.


Sadly your are most likely correct...

We have not had a good track record of picking camo patterns since we retired the Woodland BDU's...

Just look at the original "chocolate chip" desert pattern and how they had to revise it until they got a good pattern.


the marines did good


Marines I believe got their patterns from the Army's original trial. Army developed the desert and woodland digital patterns but opted instead for a universal pattern. While a universal pattern is a noble goal, it's pretty unrealistic. We do need multicam in the Army. UCP has run it's course.

I still dig multicam and 3-color desert.



MARCORSYSCOM ran trials in 2000 for a new uniform. They tested a bunch of patterns and color variations (one of my Platoon Sergeants was in the Basic Sniper Course at Quantico and participated in some of them) and ended up using a pattern developed from the Canadian's CADPAT with colors similar to old tiger stripes for the woodland, and then developed the desert pattern off that with testing out at 29 Palms during CAX. Online survey's were also conducted, and contributed to some of the uniform features.

The big Army needs to wake up and smell the coffee- a single universal pattern is a pipe dream.
whick1
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Posted: 9/15/2009 9:30:49 PM
In the same Army Times article they say that if UCP-D is adopted Rep. Fuller says that we will still be using UCP body armor which to me kind of defeats the purpose of spending millions up on millions of $$$ if the UCP is so bad, and I think that it does need improvement, then why not scrap it all together rather than leave it in body armor, packs, camelbaks, etc. Just does not make much sense to me which probably means that is just what we will be doing. On page 4 of the same Army Times issue I thought that a SSG had a good idea. His idea was to take satelitte photos from likely battlegrounds i.e. Middle East and Afganistan at the current time and take the colors from those satelitte imagery and designate them onto a camo. pattern. It could not be much worse than the current situation we are in.
SSeric02
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Posted: 9/15/2009 9:53:00 PM
Originally Posted By whick1:
In the same Army Times article they say that if UCP-D is adopted Rep. Fuller says that we will still be using UCP body armor which to me kind of defeats the purpose of spending millions up on millions of $$$ if the UCP is so bad, and I think that it does need improvement, then why not scrap it all together rather than leave it in body armor, packs, camelbaks, etc. Just does not make much sense to me which probably means that is just what we will be doing. On page 4 of the same Army Times issue I thought that a SSG had a good idea. His idea was to take satelitte photos from likely battlegrounds i.e. Middle East and Afganistan at the current time and take the colors from those satelitte imagery and designate them onto a camo. pattern. It could not be much worse than the current situation we are in.


Here's my read on it, the big Army will choose the UCP-D because they think it will get the clowns in DC to get off their backs, and they can still use the UCP pattern gear with it and not break the bank on a whole new kit of everything.
BKC1869
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Posted: 9/15/2009 10:12:30 PM
That UCP-D looks horrible.

My guess is they will pick Multicam because it's used by some Spec Ops and Ranger Units and the Army tends to follow the lead of the Special Forces and Ranger Units. Like they did with the Beret being issued to everyone.
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skebe
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Posted: 9/15/2009 10:39:43 PM
[Last Edit: 9/15/2009 10:41:43 PM by skebe]
Originally Posted By SSeric02:
Originally Posted By whick1:
In the same Army Times article they say that if UCP-D is adopted Rep. Fuller says that we will still be using UCP body armor which to me kind of defeats the purpose of spending millions up on millions of $$$ if the UCP is so bad, and I think that it does need improvement, then why not scrap it all together rather than leave it in body armor, packs, camelbaks, etc. Just does not make much sense to me which probably means that is just what we will be doing. On page 4 of the same Army Times issue I thought that a SSG had a good idea. His idea was to take satelitte photos from likely battlegrounds i.e. Middle East and Afganistan at the current time and take the colors from those satelitte imagery and designate them onto a camo. pattern. It could not be much worse than the current situation we are in.


Here's my read on it, the big Army will choose the UCP-D because they think it will get the clowns in DC to get off their backs, and they can still use the UCP pattern gear with it and not break the bank on a whole new kit of everything.


Yeah I see that happening as well to.

The rock stars still get to pick what they want but big green won't get serious on the issue for the regular troops and support crews.

They'll only do what it takes to get the poloticos off their backs. Not what it takes to really take care of the plain folks in the dirt.

ETA: I hope I'm wrong, really and truly. But I don't see the Army publicly admitting UCP was a mistake (if they go with MC).
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MOS2111
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Posted: 9/16/2009 8:46:47 AM
I "heard" that Army units in the next 6 months will be receiving a uniform similar to Desert Marpat for deployments until a suitable choice can be found.
Take that at face value


I would almost just expect them to follow the Corps. Run a desert and woodland with brown kit...
Almost makes sense.
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SSeric02
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Posted: 9/16/2009 10:07:34 AM
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 10:07:44 AM by SSeric02]
Originally Posted By MOS2111:
I "heard" that Army units in the next 6 months will be receiving a uniform similar to Desert Marpat for deployments until a suitable choice can be found.
Take that at face value


I would almost just expect them to follow the Corps. Run a desert and woodland with brown kit...
Almost makes sense.


Yep, the answer is staring them in the face- MARPAT woodland/desrt, AOR 1/2, etc.
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