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Posted: 2/25/2017 2:04:08 PM EDT
[#1]
At typical buckshot velocities, #1 buck, at .30 caliber, offers the most pellets in a 12 gauge that will reliably penetrate 12 to 14" of ballistic gelatin.
Or so I am told anyway. #3 and #2 are typically loaded in 20 gauge. But, after it is launched, it doesn't matter what gauge fired it. #3 and #2 from a 20 will penetrate more than #4 from a 12, though quantity of pellets is different. Back in the day, they loaded #1 in a 20 gauge. Some boutique makers do so today. I wish the big makers would bring back the 20 gauge #1 load, it would make the 20 gauge even better for HD, and more easily usable by smaller people. It needs to be a 2 3/4" load of course. 20 gauge 3" kicks so much you might as well be firing a 12 gauge. |
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Posted: 2/25/2017 5:21:18 PM EDT
[#2]
For HD I use OO. Easy to find. Proven. I like Federal with flite control wad but I will use just about anything if I have to.
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Posted: 2/25/2017 6:47:07 PM EDT
[#3]
After re-reading my reply, I found it to be less than helpful. Let me amplify my thought processes some.
In a 12 gauge, the #1 buck is most likely the best balance between quantity of projectiles and diameter of projectiles. The slightly larger #00 buck penetrate deeper, (possibly too deep), In 20 gauge, the #3 buck provides less than ideal penetration, though it does have the virtue of many projectiles, (wound tracks). When loaded with #2 buck, (Federal makes a 3" load), the penetration is a bit better, and I admit that I have not seen any data on gelatin penetration with #2 buck. Federal loads the #2 buck, but only in 3" shells. These kick just as hard as a 12 gauge, so nothing is gained there. Short answer, in both the 20 and the 12 gauge shotgun, the ideal HD load would be #1 buck, which is rare in 12 gauge, and extremely rare in 20 gauge. It is also loaded, (though infrequently), in 16 gauge. JMO, but #1 buck is the way to go with all 3 gauges. Doesn't mean that #00 buck won't do the job, it just means that #1 buck sits in that sweet spot. Now, #3 and #2 buck, most likely will also do the job, especially at the closer end of the ranges described. #4 buck out of a 12 gauge at close range will also work, but these loads won't normally meet the desirable 14" gelatin requirements. Kind of a complicated answer, I hope that our goblins aren't wearing body armor. |
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Posted: 2/25/2017 8:24:34 PM EDT
[#4]
I just bought some 20 ga. #1 buckshot from Academy Sports. It has 9 pellets at 1345 fps. and is made in Spain. At 10 yds. it put 6 pellets in a 6" circle. The Win. #3 put 14 out of 20 in a 6" circle.
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Posted: 2/25/2017 9:47:28 PM EDT
[#5]
In my saiga 8in sbs I only use federal flight control 00 buck
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Posted: 2/27/2017 1:37:29 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
So when it comes to home defense, 10yds. to 20yds. is it better to have 9 #00 .33" shot or say 20 #3 .25" shot ? does it even matter ? -Thanks You did not say what gauge of shotgun and if you are using it for HD. I only have a 12 gauge shotgun and use 9 pellet 00 or 15 pellet #1 buckshot for HD. If I was living in an apartment then #4 buckshot. I practice from 5 to 7 yards only at the range since my home is not that large and the longest continuous distance is a little over 7 yards. |
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Posted: 2/27/2017 2:15:18 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
So when it comes to home defense, 10yds. to 20yds. is it better to have 9 #00 .33" shot or say 20 #3 .25" shot ? does it even matter ? -Thanks If the engagement were to be confined to the home, I'd prefer #4 buckshot in the guise of a Federal Premium loading. That's 34 3% antimony copper-plated pellets. Penetration should average (some may be 9.5-11.5", some may be 14"+)the FBI minimum or greater, as I recall, and that's a LOT of holes... |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 7:49:45 AM EDT
[#8]
I largely concur with grendelbane.
The goblins won't really tell the difference. Check out old-painless's box o truth website. I don't know how often it comes in stock, but Sgammo has 20ga #1 buck loads from "spartan". They are bulk ammo, but perform well in my guns. They also offer 9p 00 in 12ga. If you can find it, based on my knowledge, #1 is best. Since it's not readily available, 00 will do you just fine. At 20 yards you may find flitecontrol or equivalent types to be much superior in patterning. I keep a 2 types of 00 (again, can't readily get #1), ready to load up. First 2 shells to fire are Winchester 3" 15p 00, followed by 2.75" 9p 00. The 3" because they offer more on the first 2 rounds, but I'm no sacrificing any capacity. If I put 3 shells of 3" then I'm down a shell. |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 8:23:17 AM EDT
[#9]
I may be mistaken but thought Old Painless did research and concluded that #4 offered the best balance of options.
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Posted: 3/2/2017 9:38:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
So when it comes to home defense, 10yds. to 20yds. is it better to have 9 #00 .33" shot or say 20 #3 .25" shot ? does it even matter ? -Thanks Bigger is generally better in terms of reliable penetration. 00 is just fine. #1 is also just fine. Go below that and you're starting to compromise penetration due to the light projectiles. The other factor is pattern. More is not necessarily better because more pellets means more contact between pellets when they are fired, which means more of a chance of flat-spotting pellets that will then fly wild. Spraying several pellets well off your intended target is entirely possible at 10 yards with a bad patterning load in your shotgun. Missing with more pellets than you hit is entirely possible and highly likely at 20 yards with such a load. Those pellets will eventually hit something...or someone. And there have indeed been people maimed and killed by stray buckshot pellets. Ideally you want a very tight pattern no bigger than the span of your hand, even out at 20-25 yards. At a bare minimum you want to keep the spread of the shot within the vitals of an average man's torso at 25 yards. Personally I recommend Federal's Law Enforcement Flite Control load as a default. It has 8 plated pellets (9 pellet loads are bad about having a flyer well away from the group due to flat-spotting) and a flite control wad that keeps the group very tight out to at least 15 yards. It doesn't really start to open up much until it's past that range. With most guns it will still keep an acceptable spread out to 20. 25 is about the upper limit for most guns, although I've seen a few guns that will shoot amazingly tight patterns with it even at 25 yards. I do not actually anticipate needing to use the gun at 25 yards, but I still want the gun to pattern well at that distance just in case it should come up. In my home there's no distance longer than 15 yards and all my guns pattern very nicely at 15 yards with the 8 pellet Federal Flite Control LE ammunition: http://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3-4-00-buck-federal-8p-law-enforcement-flitecontrol-wad-5-round Quoted:
I may be mistaken but thought Old Painless did research and concluded that #4 offered the best balance of options. Nothing against OP or his site, but I'd stick to what is recommended by the terminal ballistics experts in LE and the military: 00 or #1. There have been a lot of satisfactory shootings with both. 000 can certainly work well too, you just don't see a lot of quality plated 000 loads out there with a flite control wad in them. Same with 0. Hell, I can't remember even seeing an 0 buck shell in the flesh anywhere. Since 20 gauge was mentioned I'll say that I don't recommend 20 gauge for self defense application. The 20 hasn't had nearly the amount of R&D put into it because 12 is the standard for police and military. Further, to get 20 gauge shells that perform as well as 12 gauge offerings you are often doing so with more powder so that the 20 actually recoils a bit harder than a 12 loaded with one of the good modern buckshot loads. Plus to the best of my knowledge there's no 20 gauge buckshot shells with something like a flight control/versatite wad in them so you get a big spread at anything beyond 10 yards or so with many shotguns. I believe Hornady makes a 20 gauge turkey shell with the versatite wad, but that's using shot that's too small for defense against 2 legged predators. If all you have is 20 then do what you have to do, but if you have a choice 12 is a much better way to go for personal defense. |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 2:23:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Even 10 yards is a pretty long shot for in home defense unless you have a really big house ! At most home defense ranges ( likely 15 feet or less) the shot pattern is so small ( roughly the size of your fist) it probably doesn't matter since at this point the shotgun is essentially a large bore rifle with little difference in hit miss probability based on shot size.
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Posted: 3/2/2017 2:30:27 PM EDT
[#12]
One more for the chorus:
Flite Control Wad. It was a revelation when I tried them. I had used buckshot in the past through my old Winchester Defender (cylinder bore) and the results were dismal. I thought choke would help, so I tried different brands of buckshot through my Benelli with an Improved Cylinder choke. No dice! Then I tried the Flite Control Wad (the LE load mentioned above is excellent) and I thought it was a fluke. They patterned so nicely through my Benelli I immediately ordered them in bulk. I wish the Flite Control wad was available to reloaders! |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 6:40:40 PM EDT
[#13]
Old painless concluded that it is #1 buck.
The other option is lengthening the forcing cone like mr. Vang does. From everything I can find (I don't own one), the methods used by him and competitors, makes generic loads pattern amazingly, giving a useful range of 25-30 yards. In my 12ga, flitecontrol yields about a 12" pattern at 25 yards. I used "pfc154-00", the 9 pellet Magnum load. The low velocity 8 pellet loads likely do pattern much better because of less deformation. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 1:54:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the engagement were to be confined to the home, I'd prefer #4 buckshot in the guise of a Federal Premium loading. That's 34 3% antimony copper-plated pellets. Penetration should average (some may be 9.5-11.5", some may be 14"+)the FBI minimum or greater, as I recall, and that's a LOT of holes... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So when it comes to home defense, 10yds. to 20yds. is it better to have 9 #00 .33" shot or say 20 #3 .25" shot ? does it even matter ? -Thanks If the engagement were to be confined to the home, I'd prefer #4 buckshot in the guise of a Federal Premium loading. That's 34 3% antimony copper-plated pellets. Penetration should average (some may be 9.5-11.5", some may be 14"+)the FBI minimum or greater, as I recall, and that's a LOT of holes... FBI minimum for penetration is #1 buck. I run 00B Federal FliteControl. Here is the pattern at 15 yards from an IC choke. All 9 pellets in a 3"x4" area, smaller than your fist. 
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Posted: 3/6/2017 9:26:17 AM EDT
[#15]
To give some further information on Federal's Flite Control buck loads:
 Is buckshot lethal at 50 yards? Short version: Load Muzzle Velocity - vel @ 50 yds penetration, gel penetration @ 50 yds 000 1320 fps - 920 fps, 16.3” 00 full charge 1239 fps - 920 fps, 16.2” 00 reduced recoil 1150 fps - 862 fps, 14.2” #4 full charge 1318 fps - 840 fps, 9.0” The FBI ammunition protocols and other reliable sources call for penetration in the 12-14 inch range for maximum effectiveness. Either full charge or reduced recoil 00 loads give this performance, even at 50 yards. This tells us a couple of things: 1. Stray rounds of buckshot are of vital concern because they remain lethally effective even at extended distances:  Deer Hunting Performance Test! Federal Flite Control 00 Buckshot 2. Since it's been established that with the right buckshot loads we can get excellent performance even at greater distances, there's probably little need for the average joe to worry about slugs. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 9:46:05 AM EDT
[#16]
Same IC barrel as above. Fed FliteControl 00B at 50 yards. This is full power, 9 pellet, copper plated, 1325 fps, #PFC15400.
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Posted: 3/6/2017 10:00:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The FBI ammunition protocols and other reliable sources call for penetration in the 12-14 inch range for maximum effectiveness. Either full charge or reduced recoil 00 loads give this performance, even at 50 yards. Excellent post with the minor caveat that the FBI considers 12 to 18 inches of penetration in calibrated ballistic gelatin to be acceptable. 12 inches is the minimum acceptable penetration depth, which is not the same as saying that it is ideal for "maximum effectiveness". It just means that you don't want a load that penetrates less than that. In practical terms, the ideal is probably somewhere in the 14 to 16 inch range in ballistic gel. As an aside, here's an interesting article from the June 1990 issue of American Rifleman regarding early testing and methodology: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/16/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/ ETA: If somebody is looking for a load that meets the FBI's depth penetration requirement while patterning very tightly, an excellent place to start is the Federal LE13300 load (8 pellets of plated, buffered 00 Buck at reduced-recoil velocity of 1145 FPS). I've shot it through various makes and models of pump guns and it is consistently tight. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 9:54:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Is Federal making #1 buck in the flite control wad?
If not, I'd stick with their 00 flite control. If you're not going to use flite control, go with #1 buck. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:17:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is Federal making #1 buck in the flite control wad? If not, I'd stick with their 00 flite control. If you're not going to use flite control, go with #1 buck. I've got Flite Control #1 in my HD gun. Haven't seen it for sale in a while but it's out there. |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 11:19:01 AM EDT
[#20]
My agency issued Remington 870's or S&W 3000 with 0 buck shot 12 pellet 30 caliber pellets. We were also issued 1 ounce slugs of various brands over the years. My Agency was always very concerned about fratricide and transitioned to 8 pellet 00 buck 33 caliber pellet low recoil. At the same time we went to LE reduced recoil slugs, IIRC 7/8 ounce.
The Agency eventually retired all the S&W shotguns but with either model with cylinder bore I would loose pellets at 25 yards with 0 buck shot. The LE 8 pellet 00 reduced recoil load was the most consistent patterning load I'd ever used. My Agency withdrew buck shot from the Officers and only issued reduced recoil slugs. The concern over fratricide and active shooters drove the department to only issue low recoil slugs. The upper command hated shotgun qualification and with the issue of patrol rifles the shotgun was rarely the first choice for a long gun. If given a choice I'd select Federal LE low recoil 8 pellet 00 buck with flight control wad. This is the best personal protection buck shot load IMHO. |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 6:37:59 PM EDT
[#21]
I use 00 buck exclusively. Other people have already posted some really good information but here's my logic:
- 00buck is readily available in a variety of loads from a lot of different people. I'm very comfortable with how my shotgun patterns with 00buck - Federal and Hornady's flight control 00 buck is flat out amazing. All 9 pellets inside a standard silhouette at 50yds?! Yes please - I like shotguns (despite all of the Pros for using an AR15) because of the total energy of each round and how it's distributed among the shot - I'm ultimately responsible for everything that comes out of the barrel. More shot, more responsibility. Less shot, less responsibility. - the heavier projectiles in 00buck are going to retain their velocity/energy over longer distances. See John_Wayne777's post |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 8:04:26 PM EDT
[#22]
After playing with #4 for some time, and hunting with it, I've developed a fondness for it.
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:12:07 AM EDT
[#23]
What are you hunting with 4 Buck? I think it's reasonably popular for coyotes around here.
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Posted: 4/10/2017 7:47:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Long ago when I was in high school and doing a lot of deer hunting. A local hunter was accidentally killed with one 00 buck pellet at over 200 yards. One pellet made it through the woods and pierced his heart. As a young hunter it left an impression on me as far as knowing what was behind your target.
00 has range if you can put the pellets on target. |
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Posted: 4/11/2017 7:26:43 PM EDT
[#25]
I use #1 buckshot when I can find it. I don't feel under armed if all I have is 00.
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Posted: 4/11/2017 8:09:40 PM EDT
[#26]
I have a box of 3.5-inch #4 buckshot, 54 Pellets per shell. That is roughly 2.5 oz of lead with each pull of the trigger, assuming your man enough to pull that trigger.
Personally I am happy enough running Remington Manage Recoil buckshot in my 1100. Eight pellets of #00 buck with 10 more shells in the tube. |
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Posted: 5/27/2017 9:31:14 PM EDT
[#27]
Call me contrarian, or ignorant perhaps, but my idea of how a shotgun *should" work is negated by using shells with FliteControl. I want my shots to start patterning out at 10 yards instead of 40-50.
I don't know....it just seems counterintuitive to me that you'd close down your shotgun's pattern to where you're essentially shooting a rifle at what's traditionally considered shotgun fighting distances. If a bad guy is running across my line of sight 15-30 yards away, I'd rather get 3 or 4 pellets in than zero. If people are *that* concerned about fliers and need a precision shot, one should be using a tactical carbine. It used to be that you'd at least get a wall of lead down range in exchange for the slower followup shots due to recoil/capacity compared to rifles....I just *don't* get FliteControl at all. I have a modified choke sitting in my Benelli M4, seems perfect paired with standard 00 or #1 buck for defensive purposes. |
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Posted: 5/27/2017 11:06:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What are you hunting with 4 Buck? I think it's reasonably popular for coyotes around here. |
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Posted: 5/27/2017 11:28:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Call me contrarian, or ignorant perhaps, but my idea of how a shotgun *should" work is negated by using shells with FliteControl. I want my shots to start patterning out at 10 yards instead of 40-50. I don't know....it just seems counterintuitive to me that you'd close down your shotgun's pattern to where you're essentially shooting a rifle at what's traditionally considered shotgun fighting distances. If a bad guy is running across my line of sight 15-30 yards away, I'd rather get 3 or 4 pellets in than zero. If people are *that* concerned about fliers and need a precision shot, one should be using a tactical carbine. It used to be that you'd at least get a wall of lead down range in exchange for the slower followup shots due to recoil/capacity compared to rifles....I just *don't* get FliteControl at all. I have a modified choke sitting in my Benelli M4, seems perfect paired with standard 00 or #1 buck for defensive purposes. |
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Posted: 5/28/2017 1:14:50 AM EDT
[#30]
For what it's worth, I've never read a single account of a guy getting hit in the chest with a good, old-fashioned load of 12-gauge 00-buck and then complaining about the size or velocity of the pellets.
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Posted: 5/28/2017 10:09:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You must be responsible for every pellet down range. Every pellet that misses the target is a negligent discharge in my book. I want a mass effect that produces a single huge wound you can stick your fist into, and that both penetrates at least 12" and completely disrupts and incapacitates. Threat over. Flite Control does that. You're giving up every advantage inherent in a shotgun by using FliteControl ammunition. If you need precise shots, use a rifle. Less recoil, better sights, faster follow-up shots. |
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Posted: 5/28/2017 2:04:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It still doesn't make a lick of sense to me. People should be using a tactical carbine or handgun if in an urban area and stray shotshell pellets are a concern. You're giving up every advantage inherent in a shotgun by using FliteControl ammunition. If you need precise shots, use a rifle. Less recoil, better sights, faster follow-up shots. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You must be responsible for every pellet down range. Every pellet that misses the target is a negligent discharge in my book. I want a mass effect that produces a single huge wound you can stick your fist into, and that both penetrates at least 12" and completely disrupts and incapacitates. Threat over. Flite Control does that. You're giving up every advantage inherent in a shotgun by using FliteControl ammunition. If you need precise shots, use a rifle. Less recoil, better sights, faster follow-up shots. |
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Posted: 5/28/2017 8:33:47 PM EDT
[#33]
In hot weather, where there is less risk of home invaders wearing heavy clothing, and with close neighbors, #4 buck can be a good alternative. It hits hard up close, but not a greater distance. Here's a good vid of the difference when considering wall penetration.
wall penetration test. I love flite control buckshot for outdoor use, but for indoor (15 to 20 feet) I prefer non-flite control. Preferably in #1 or #4. For outdoor use, nothing beats 00 buck. If I had to choose only one load, it would be 00 buck, but fortunately, I don't have to settle for just one load. Granted I don't expect to load up a specific round when the door is getting kicked in. I load the bedroom and couch gun with #4 and the garage gun (and second bedroom gun) with 00. Using my expected engagement range as a guide. The trade off, of course, is that flite control may miss entirely. I WANT some pattern spread at close range. I'm no more concerned with a flyer or two than I am with the idea of missing entirely with a pistol or rifle - or flite control round. IIRC, the hit ratio in LE shootings is around 25%. So downrange threats are definitely an issue, but not THE final issue. Especially if some of that #4 buck doesn't penetrate exterior walls very well. #4 buck DOES meet the minimum penetration test of 12", but granted it only does it at close range. Pretty good vid here to demonstrate that. The earlier vid of 50-yard penetration shows it underperforms at distance. #4 buckshot gel test At the end of the day, everything is a compromise. This has been a great thread so far. No one in here singing the praises of birdshot for HD. 
ETA: I understand the rationale behind wanting all projectiles to impact the intended recipient. However any experience with force-on-force training (or real two-way range experience) will show that it's much easier said than done against a live opponent. |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 1:05:47 PM EDT
[#34]
Personally, I am more attracted to energy. I really like the Hornady Critical Defense 12ga load. Eight (8) 00 Buck (33cal/54gr.) hard lead pellets leaving the muzzle @ ~1600fps. That load will penetrate.
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Posted: 5/31/2017 10:18:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In hot weather, where there is less risk of home invaders wearing heavy clothing, and with close neighbors, #4 buck can be a good alternative. It hits hard up close, but not a greater distance. Here's a good vid of the difference when considering wall penetration. wall penetration test. I love flite control buckshot for outdoor use, but for indoor (15 to 20 feet) I prefer non-flite control. Preferably in #1 or #4. For outdoor use, nothing beats 00 buck. If I had to choose only one load, it would be 00 buck, but fortunately, I don't have to settle for just one load. Granted I don't expect to load up a specific round when the door is getting kicked in. I load the bedroom and couch gun with #4 and the garage gun (and second bedroom gun) with 00. Using my expected engagement range as a guide. The trade off, of course, is that flite control may miss entirely. I WANT some pattern spread at close range. I'm no more concerned with a flyer or two than I am with the idea of missing entirely with a pistol or rifle - or flite control round. IIRC, the hit ratio in LE shootings is around 25%. So downrange threats are definitely an issue, but not THE final issue. Especially if some of that #4 buck doesn't penetrate exterior walls very well. #4 buck DOES meet the minimum penetration test of 12", but granted it only does it at close range. Pretty good vid here to demonstrate that. The earlier vid of 50-yard penetration shows it underperforms at distance. #4 buckshot gel test At the end of the day, everything is a compromise. This has been a great thread so far. No one in here singing the praises of birdshot for HD.
ETA: I understand the rationale behind wanting all projectiles to impact the intended recipient. However any experience with force-on-force training (or real two-way range experience) will show that it's much easier said than done against a live opponent. |
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Posted: 6/1/2017 8:37:37 AM EDT
[#36]
IME I found that unless the entire load of buckshot hits the threat the results are poor. I'd rather use slugs at all distances over standard buckshot. When I found flight control buck I wish I was issued the stuff. It's a game changer for a shotgun imo.
Either the #4 Hornady or the 00 federal have impressed me with their patterns and terminal performance on deer out to around 50 yards. I shot a 170lbs doe at 60 yards with a 9 pellet 00 full power load. 6 pellets hit the chest cavity. 3 were unaccounted for but at 60 yards I was impressed. I just haven't tried the #1 flight control load but I'm sure it's excellent. |
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Posted: 6/4/2017 10:12:29 AM EDT
[#37]
There is some good info in this thread and some blarney.
Brass Fetcher maximum range effectiveness testing that Greg Ellifritz has cited. It may contraindicate from some anecdotal evidence but certainly endorses the flight control wad for distance. |
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Posted: 6/4/2017 11:27:51 AM EDT
[#38]
I keep my HD shotgun loaded with #1 buck when I have it. I don't stay up late at night afraid to sleep if I have to load it with 00.
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Posted: 6/11/2017 1:29:19 PM EDT
[#39]
I'm a big proponent of 00 Buck in shotguns, although I'm not a big fan of shotguns. I prefer SMGs or rifle-caliber carbines.
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