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Posted: 6/9/2016 1:01:32 AM EDT
I have never shot or handled a shotgun before but considering one for home defense/plinking. What sights do you prefer bead or ghost ring?
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 1:14:26 AM EDT
[#1]
Most HD shotguns are perfectly fine with a simple bead sight. Take into account how far you might be shooting in a situation like that- yes, you have to aim, but ghost rings zeroed at 25-50 yards are overkill. That being said, I have tritium rifle sights on mine because I shoot it a lot at the range, at various distances, and I wanted more than the bead. See if you can try out a couple first. Maybe your shooting buddies have a some options for you to test drive before you make any decisions. Good luck, have fun.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 1:24:49 AM EDT
[#2]
Either one is fine. Smooth bore: Unless you are sitting on cases and cases of the same load of slug, the grouping is so wildly different from brand to brand that you are still almost as accurate with a bead as you are with a peep or a red dot.

First shotgun ever, I suggest a bead sight.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 1:56:33 AM EDT
[#3]
tritium bead

This is what i have on mine, youth stock and a light.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 6:21:05 AM EDT
[#4]
Editing voodoo, double tapped, see below....
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 6:21:48 AM EDT
[#5]
Keep it simple.

12 GA pump.  Bead sight.
Add a shotcard with some velcro.  

Get a light. I use strips of inner tube (like fat rubber bands) to hold it to the gun right in front of the pump where the Mag tube ends.

Get 6-10 snap caps (eBay ) and practice loading unloading via YouTube vids.
Bit of a overkill answer but I've been chugging coffee for 2hours.

Check out the Aquila mini shells for practice. Very low recoil.  Not alot of pumps will cycle them reliably but I use them for single loading drills from the shot card.  




Link Posted: 6/9/2016 6:23:00 AM EDT
[#6]
A bead sight will do what you need to do. A tritium bead is good too but you won't find lot that come with that. Brownell's sells the tritium bead mentioned above that goes  over your existing bead with epoxy. Very simple to do as a beginner, you just have to be careful you don't smear epoxy everywhere around the front sight area. I'd shop for the gunci liked and add the bead myself.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 10:56:43 AM EDT
[#7]
I did the bead from Brownells.  I used painter's tape to make a perimeter when the sightvwas mocked up.  Epoxied and waited for it to be semi solid and pulled the tape.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 11:04:54 AM EDT
[#8]
If you're buying new: http://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870/model-870-hardwood-home-defense
 



The wood soaks up recoil a little better than synthetic. You can switch barrels later if you want to shoot skeet or hunt.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 11:05:35 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
I did the bead from Brownells.  I used painter's tape to make a perimeter when the sightvwas mocked up.  Epoxied and waited for it to be semi solid and pulled the tape.
View Quote

Pro tip here!
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 11:54:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Used this on my Mossberg, simply index it with threadlocker and it works perfectly.

Meprolight tritium sight
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 12:24:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you're buying new: http://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870/model-870-hardwood-home-defense  

The wood soaks up recoil a little better than synthetic. You can switch barrels later if you want to shoot skeet or hunt.
View Quote


+1. My 870 Police Mag with walnut furniture feels easier to control, more pleasant to shoot than my buddy's 870P with the synthetic stuff on it.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 12:45:22 PM EDT
[#12]
I have an LPA-BAR rear ghost ring, and an LPA fiber optic on the front of my 870P.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 12:55:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
I have never shot or handled a shotgun before but considering one for home defense/plinking. What sights do you prefer bead or ghost ring?
View Quote


I would say start with the bead.

Here's my reasoning. You're going to find the vast majority of shotguns are fitted with bead sights. If you're just getting into shotgunning, I feel it's imperative you learn the platform first.

Shoot paper with slugs and shot. Use the bead.

Do some clay shooting. Use the bead.

Once you've gotten some experience, (and know you like shooting shotguns) expand out from there.

If you want to dress it up slightly, the epoxy'd sight from Brownells is a good option.

I'd hold off on a ghost ring.

Once you fall in love with your shotgun, and want another one, then come back and we'll help you go further down the rabbit hole.

For now, I'd stick with the basics. Think of it as learning to drive a manual transmission first. If you start with a ghost ring, and you come on a bead sight, you won't be as competent using it.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 12:58:04 PM EDT
[#14]
20 ga Youth 870 w/ full choke, Choate mag extension, & #1 buck.  Works for you and the lady, faster followup.  Choate also has a folder, or you can cut down a Pachmayr Vindicator PG to fit.

If you're going to go 12 ga, either reload or pay for low-recoil police buckshot.
Link Posted: 6/9/2016 2:33:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Thanks for all the info!
Link Posted: 6/10/2016 6:15:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


If you're going to go 12 ga, either reload or pay for low-recoil police buckshot.
View Quote

Good advice on the low recoil ammo, but don't overpay just because it's "Police" buckshot, a lot of places price gouge those that don't know any better. It's no more expensive than regular buckshot at most LE distributors. I recommend the Federal #1 buck if you can find it in stock. https://www.gtdist.com/products/guns-firearms/federal-12ga-5-bx-tac-1-buck-15-plts-2-3-4.html

If you can't get that then good ole 00 is tried and true as well.
https://www.gtdist.com/products/guns-firearms/federal-12ga-5-bx-00-buck-9plts-2-3-4.html

Reloading might be a bit too much of a project if you're also new to shotguns. I strongly recommend against reloads for any defensive shooting situation. I love them for training and hunting but shooting someone even if justified in the criminal investigation can still have serious civil implications in which even dullard lawyers are taught to attack you on any issues they can in front of a jury. You won't undercut the cost of $3.49 a box buckshot enough to pay those legal fees and settlement if said lawyer convinces a jury that store bought buckshot wasn't deadly enough for you and you had to make yours specially deadly.
Link Posted: 6/10/2016 6:43:26 AM EDT
[#17]
OP seeing as you're in Missouri, have you heard of Summit Gunbrokers? Good deals on police trade in guns, the website is an older setup, harder to navigate if you don't remember when it was state of the art. Look under riot guns.
http://summitgunbroker.com
Link Posted: 6/10/2016 10:10:07 AM EDT
[#18]
I have the Remington 870 Express Combo, but I never use the long barrel. I prefer having a front & rear sight for accuracy.

The first thing I did was install an extended magazine tube, Nordic Components picatinny barrel clamp and Wolff magazine spring. Had a house fire and Cerakoted to restore the shotgun.

QD LaRue offset light mount soon to be replaced with the VLTOR ADM Scout Mount. When using a light I have no need for tritium/illuminated iron sights as I can see them just fine.

Next was the Magpul SGA stock & Hogue forend.

Next I drilled & threaded the receiver for a Picatinny rail, Vortex StrikeFire and ADM low pro mount.

I needed a Magpul cheek riser kit 'high' for optimum cheek weld for this combination.





Link Posted: 6/10/2016 2:26:20 PM EDT
[#19]
People's needs for homeland security might differ; I live in town so a shotgun more than a few feet isn't practical, have light, bead sight and extra ammo. Friend lives in the country and has more needs like keeping predators away from livestock, he uses a gun with a light and GR sights.

In my mind, the most important piece of gear with any firearm like this is a light, gotta see what you're shooting at.

psegnatelli hits the nail on the head.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Keep it simple.

12 GA pump.  

Bead sight.

Add a shotcard with some velcro.  

Get a light.
View Quote



Link Posted: 6/10/2016 2:46:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Reloading might be a bit too much of a project if you're also new to shotguns. I strongly recommend against reloads for any defensive shooting situation. I love them for training and hunting but shooting someone even if justified in the criminal investigation can still have serious civil implications in which even dullard lawyers are taught to attack you on any issues they can in front of a jury. You won't undercut the cost of $3.49 a box buckshot enough to pay those legal fees and settlement if said lawyer convinces a jury that store bought buckshot wasn't deadly enough for you and you had to make yours specially deadly.
View Quote


Got any links to any prosecution that was swayed over reloads?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/10/2016 11:09:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Got any links to any prosecution that was swayed over reloads?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Reloading might be a bit too much of a project if you're also new to shotguns. I strongly recommend against reloads for any defensive shooting situation. I love them for training and hunting but shooting someone even if justified in the criminal investigation can still have serious civil implications in which even dullard lawyers are taught to attack you on any issues they can in front of a jury. You won't undercut the cost of $3.49 a box buckshot enough to pay those legal fees and settlement if said lawyer convinces a jury that store bought buckshot wasn't deadly enough for you and you had to make yours specially deadly.


Got any links to any prosecution that was swayed over reloads?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

From a post by Massad Ayoob on thehighroad


Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court


As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)


TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 8:15:25 AM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
20 ga Youth 870 w/ full choke, Choate mag extension, & #1 buck.
View Quote

I've been looking for a #1 buck load to try in my 20 gauge. Can you share a link to where I can find it. Seems #3 is all I find on the shelf. Icsee #2 on some websites but no luck with the #1.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 10:53:41 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:


I've been looking for a #1 buck load to try in my 20 gauge. Can you share a link to where I can find it. Seems #3 is all I find on the shelf. Icsee #2 on some websites but no luck with the #1.
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Quoted:
Quoted:  20 ga Youth 870 w/ full choke, Choate mag extension, & #1 buck.


I've been looking for a #1 buck load to try in my 20 gauge. Can you share a link to where I can find it. Seems #3 is all I find on the shelf. Icsee #2 on some websites but no luck with the #1.


I'll have to look @ the box of the last I got when I got home - it was an off brand.  Bought two boxes when Academy discontinued it.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 11:20:07 AM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


I'll have to look @ the box of the last I got when I got home - it was an off brand.  Bought two boxes when Academy discontinued it.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  20 ga Youth 870 w/ full choke, Choate mag extension, & #1 buck.


I've been looking for a #1 buck load to try in my 20 gauge. Can you share a link to where I can find it. Seems #3 is all I find on the shelf. Icsee #2 on some websites but no luck with the #1.


I'll have to look @ the box of the last I got when I got home - it was an off brand.  Bought two boxes when Academy discontinued it.

Thanks man! I switched over to the #1 in 12 gauge because I really like the group density. I'd really like to find the 20 gauge.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 11:44:26 AM EDT
[#25]
Rio has a 9 pellet 1 buck load.  

I've emailed hornady and got a response on them making one .  I think it would sell.

ETA.   It doesn't pattern as well as fed no. 2. In my 870.
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 4:54:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Spartan is the brand I was thinking of.  Academy in AL still has the 00 buck in 12 GA.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/11/2016 5:02:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Spartan is the brand I was thinking of.  Academy in AL still has the 00 buck in 12 GA.

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Off to Google..thanks!

J&G Sales has it for $99 a case/250 rounds
http://www.jgsales.com/20ga-spartan-2.75,-1-buckshot,-9-pellet,-250rd-case.-p-70938.html
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 11:42:13 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

From a post by Massad Ayoob on thehighroad


Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court


As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)


TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob
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Quoted:
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Reloading might be a bit too much of a project if you're also new to shotguns. I strongly recommend against reloads for any defensive shooting situation. I love them for training and hunting but shooting someone even if justified in the criminal investigation can still have serious civil implications in which even dullard lawyers are taught to attack you on any issues they can in front of a jury. You won't undercut the cost of $3.49 a box buckshot enough to pay those legal fees and settlement if said lawyer convinces a jury that store bought buckshot wasn't deadly enough for you and you had to make yours specially deadly.


Got any links to any prosecution that was swayed over reloads?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

From a post by Massad Ayoob on thehighroad


Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court


As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)


TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob



Seems like the authorities would prefer you just kneel down and die rather than defend yourself.
Link Posted: 7/19/2016 6:56:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Anything but a Remington 887.    
Link Posted: 7/20/2016 2:34:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
20 ga Youth 870 w/ full choke, Choate mag extension, & #1 buck.  Works for you and the lady, faster followup.  Choate also has a folder, or you can cut down a Pachmayr Vindicator PG to fit.

If you're going to go 12 ga, either reload or pay for low-recoil police buckshot.
View Quote


What this guy said.
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 10:00:50 AM EDT
[#31]
The best home defense load is the Federal FliteControl buckshot, either in 00B or #1B, if you can find the latter.  Both pass FBI barrier blind penetration criteria and have pattern densityvthat is simply unrivaled.  Hornady uses the wad design under license from Federal and calls their loading Versatite.  Avsilable in full power and reduced recoil loads.

Preferred choke is improved cylinder.  Pstterns at home defense distances are under 4".  That's right, all pellets within 4" in my 21" IC Remington barrel.  Heck, all the way out to 50 yards all pellets are within a 10"x11" square.

I've not yet seen a 20 gauge loading.  If not released yet, it would make a good option.

This is devastating terminal ballistic performance.
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 7:29:57 PM EDT
[#32]
I thought Flite Control liked cylinder bore. You run an improved with no problems?
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 9:51:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I thought Flite Control liked cylinder bore. You run an improved with no problems?
View Quote

I've had great patterns out of a modified choke.

Buckshot and waterfowl loads.  

Ic and cyl are tighter but nothing is lose any sleep over.  


Basically half the spread or more of a standard buckshot load.

My two all purpose shotguns usually have a MOD choke in them unless it's early in the season or deer season. Then they get a ic.

Link Posted: 7/23/2016 11:08:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I thought Flite Control liked cylinder bore. You run an improved with no problems?
View Quote


You tell me.  Here is a 45 foot, 15 yard pattern from my 21" IC barrel.  Extreme spread is 4".  8 of 9 pellets are within 3".


Link Posted: 7/23/2016 11:11:29 AM EDT
[#35]
Sorry.  Double tap.
Link Posted: 7/23/2016 11:30:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Good to know! Thanks!

I could have sworn I read something about it messing up the cup, but I'm clearly mistaken.

That pattern will certainly work!
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