Can I get greedy and ask if you think it'd be possible to integrally supress that platform?

The perfect SBS, in my opinion, is an 8" with a 3" Rem Choked barrel extension for use with a Salvo 12. Short when you want it short and quiet when you want it quiet. 3" Rem Chokes extension would also allow greater control of the shot and more velocity. Integral kind of paints it into a corner. If you don't mind it always being long I suppose it could be adequate.

Still not done.

WTF!

Front fell off.

I have an SBS with slugs as a backup to my Glock 17.  Home invasion with body armor?  I am going to put down some hurt.

I run my 10.5 Ar15 with a surefire x300u and a suppressor for HD. I use to run a 870 police magnum but infeel.more comfortable with my ar15 and I have more rounds along with and extra mag for malfunction clearing.

What do you guys think about the social ramifications of using a shotgun vs. a carbine?

What social ramifications?  Do you actually think anybody cares? A shotgun can become a "sawed-off street sweeper" as easily as an AR can become an "assault weapon".

If the prosecution or the media want to make it evil, they will.

10mm from a G20 made a good shoot become prosecuted because the DA made his case that the victim wanted someone to die because he used 10mm.

This is an apt point.

Harold Fish vs Arizona.

That's a solid argument when you think about where you live.

Wyoming and Alaska probably wouldn't care if you used a Barrett.

Your personal opinion of your local government and political environment might influence your opinion on HD choices.

The worst case scenario for home defense is probably a home invasion.

While the point has been made that home invasions may involve upwards of 5 to 7 criminals (and maybe more), I've never ever heard or read of a case of the criminals pressing the attack if the resident is able to offer armed resistance, particularly if it's early on in the invasion.  The point of several invaders is to overwhelm any possible resistance quickly.  If confronted with actual (armed) resistance, they'll un-ass as best they can because getting hurt or killed isn't in their plan.  I think that for the vast majority of likely scenarios that are realistic (we can "what-if" scenarios to defend any opinion), the shotgun is sufficient.

That said, an AR or pistol is my go-to for home defense because I can shepherd kids around or manipulate things like doors while still being ready to shoot if need be.  I can't do that with a pump shotgun.... although as a new father with limited discretionary funds, I used a shotgun for a number of years.

Shotguns aren't bad.  The AR isn't magical.  For the scenarios that I consider most likely for me (the owner of a single-family house in an urban area with kids in the house), the AR carbine just comes out a little ahead.

I'll take my chances. If I had a disintegrator ray, if use that.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, as the saying goes...

You hit the nail right on the head, one of the best replies yet in here.

Just an old video to show how determined multiple armed thives don't count on getting any resistance and haul ass out of there:

Supressed SBR is my top choice for most effective weapon.  Bonus points for an improved caliber like 6.8 spc.
But despite that, it is not my go-to weapon.  In my personal situation, kids and convenience dictate that a handgun is my only quick option.


I realize this is the Shotgun forum, so my opinion might not be very popular here, but I don't rate shotguns very high compared to other firearms for home defense.



It depends on the scenario:  multiple attackers?  exclusively indoors?

And it depends on your personal competence with a particular weapon system.  I am very familiar and very comfortable witht a carbine.  I don't shoot my shotguns very often.

As for making this a "technical" response, here's an indisputable, scientific chart that I made to prove that I prefer a SBR.

Been thinking about this lately because of California's new laws for 2017.

Basically all mags over 10 rounds will be banned from possession and any center fire semi auto with a pistol grip will be deemed an assault weapon. For HD I'm thinking you probably don't want to shoot somebody with something labeled an assault weapon in CA. I mean a good shoot should be a good shoot, but...

I realized I have two firearms which are not "assault weapons" but are nearly identically configured with similar capacity, and both should fit in my long gun wall lock:

Beretta 1301 tactical with aimpoint, mag extension and Surefire light
Ares SCR with aimpoint and Surefire light on a BCM 16" upper.

So the SCR would have a two round capacity advantage but could be run with a second 10 round mag jungle clipped. Hard to reload a shotgun under duress.

Otherwise both are lightweight, reliable. SCR is shorter so easier to maneuver indoors (which still sucks for a long gun).

I had the 1301 before the SCR so it is the incumbent. The SCR being so similar in handling has me thinking though.

Or I could just bite the "assault weapon" bullet and use my Tavor for my home defense long gun. That thing rocks in close quarters.

I'd say for you to move.

 

Why wouldn't any self defense weapon automatically rate at a 10 for reliability?

Because some weapons are more susceptible to stoppages, of course.

A 12 gauge is a lot more politically correct, and I think your risk of being prosecuted is less. Maybe. Especially if you load your pump action with some load like BB which is completely devastating at room distances but doesn't look all that bad in the courtroom, hunting ammo with all these birds pictured on it. Now contrast that an even black rifle and optics and a large cache of magazines proves you were training for this and looking for a fight.

Even a 20 gauge loaded with buckshot is more devastating than any single projectile.

This is especially true in other countries.

AR is considerably louder, I fired both side by side. The velocity difference is huge.

Interesting.

Shotgun Over Penetration on Drywall

Multiple moving targets at close range are shotgun territory, you are far more likely to hit something with at least some of the pellets versus a single projectile.  3-4 suspects, all armed.

A precision shot is possible with buckshot with the new Federal FliteControl wad, patterns or "groups" are half dollar sized at room distances. I wouldn't attempt it with Walmart special buckshot but Fed FCW or the Hornady version - they both shoot almost like rifles - and it's entirely possible to miss even at 20 feet since the pattern is so tight.

And if you are that worried about accuracy, can always switch to slugs.

Think lawyers and courtroom if your case ends up there. Then ask yourself what the stupid jury will think about the PS90 assault personal defense with a bazooka attached to it or some 50 year old 20 gauge loaded with hunting rounds (which are actually a lot more effective than anything else).

Fact is, self-defense is not viable in many places around the country.  Not everyone reading this is in rural TX with a decent political climate. You shoot someone with a bazooka and they will portray you as an evil, trigger-happy survivalist who likes to shoot school children, who accidentally walked into your residence and just accidentally borrowed some electronics.  They will show your targets and explain how you practiced and aimed for the head.

This is the same reasons Massad Ayob recommends against trigger jobs on defense guns.  He has a lot of courtroom experience and shootings ruined many lives, even when cops were involved.

A shotgun appears to be the most politically correct weapon today, and while I want to say screw it to the PC climate..

Yet they still use them, both pump action mossbergs and semiauto M4s..

Some departments cannot outfit all of their officers due to monetary constraints, while some use them for special munitions such as breaching.

I was told by another arf member that the only person in his department who has a shotgun is because she's afraid of the recoil of the AR15 so maybe there are those still out there like that too

Disclaimer: I skimmed the 8 pages as I do not have time to read them all so if I double-tap something please forgive me.



I feel that both have been proven to be great HD/SD weapons. I use my ar15 only because it is similar to what I have extensively trained with for the last 8 years. We have had some MP5s and Rem. 870s during MOUT training but 99% of the time 10.5, 14.5. or 18in 5.56 rifles (yes I have been stuck in a shoot house with an MK12 many times). I have cloned all three for that very reason for my personal collection. Being confident in yourself and your weapon outweigh any minor flaws in the whole shotgun vs pistol vs rifle debate - they are all lethal. Its not the most expensive, biggest nor most powerful firearm that wins the battle, its the most skilled, trained and confident person with the tactical advantage. Over Penetration is not an issue with either if proper ammo is used. Looking at the technical aspects I feel that an 5.56 AR15 still 'one ups' a shotgun due to mag capacity and the option of precise shot placement if needed to reduce collateral damage (hostage situation for example). Also it can - if needed- reach out a lot further than a shotgun, yet I'm sure you would have a hard time writing off a 100yd shot as SD being Stateside.



V/R

To each his own. A bump in the night/or day trouble the Beretta 1301 w/Fed Flight Control ammo for H/D is my choice. The wife likes the 870 w/FFC. If multiple invaders come into your home and you initiate or return fire I think they will evacuate the premises,   I would rather have a .22lr than nothing. YMMV

Great thread.  I have been thinking of swapping out the Benelli M2 Tactical in my closet for something else.  I have a 10.5" 5.56 SBR and a can for it, but honestly, even with the can, it is still pretty loud and would cause hearing damage indoors.  I have been considering putting a suppressed, pistol-caliber SBR into service instead.  It offers high capacity, greater practical accuracy and speed than a pistol, and the main advantage is that it protects the user from the disorientation and hearing loss associated with other options.

I will also offer this.  In my LE experience, I found that long guns rarely came out of the car, even when there was a chance of an armed subject.  The reason is that if it turns out that you are not facing a deadly force threat, the long gun becomes a liability.  It is hard to go hands on with a subject when you have a shotgun in your hands.

So, in the HD scenario, you roll out in the middle of the night because your alarm is going off, go downstairs, and find an unarmed BG in your house.  I know there are people who will argue that you should just shoot the subject anyway, but that is a bad idea from a legal standpoint ( I am a lawyer).  You need to be able to explain that you had a reasonable belief that you or another innocent person was in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury.  While there are certainly circumstances where that might be the case with an unarmed subject (e.g. he is 6'6", 300 lbs, and proclaiming his intent to kill you), it will not always be the case.  You might need to employ a lower level of force.  What are you going to do with your gun?

I make that point to suggest that in some circumstances a handgun that you can holster might be preferable to a long gun.  That in turn raises the problem of not wearing pants, let along a belt and holster.  Certainly, if the answer is a long gun, it absolutely must have a sling.

I would be interested to hear any thoughts on the issue.

Good buddy of mine feels the way you do.

He's awaiting his Form 1 for a 9mm AR SBR.

He's mating it with an Octane, 147gr subsonic HPs, an undecided optic, and a dedicated Surefire weapon light. I have to say that sounds pretty awesome in my book. Controlable, hearing safe, and dedicated illumination.

Even better? He got one that takes Glock mags. So his primary sidearm (G19) and his primary HD weapon share magazines.

Pistols are nice too, it's great to have the flexibility.

This thread has made me think any of my three choices would be just fine, although maybe not perfect in a scenario. (G17, 870 SBS, SR-15 - all with weapon lights)

I just found out KAC makes a panel to control the wires and the activation plate a few days ago...that's on the way now.

"I think people get hung up too much on what they're going to use to shoot the badguy in their home. Shotguns and carbines both have their place and both will kill a badguy. It's up to you to decide which platform is best for you and your situation, then train to fight with whatever you choose. Having a plan in place on how you're going to respond is way more important in my opinion."

This is by far one of the most intelligent comments that I have seen on this thread.

Yet that does not negate what I said in any way, shape, or form. I still see security guards armed with revolvers, even though it's been known for decades semi's are better for stopping fights. Just because a thing is still in use here and there doesn't negate the knowledge of it's performance being surpassed.

 

If I did not live in Virginia I might be more concerned with, shall we call it "the Massad Ayob" recommendation, but Virginia is a very self defense friendly state.  If I shoot someone who is a threat in my house it almost certainly going to be ruled a good shoot and is never going to court.



I get the arguments for shotguns, and applaud those that can make it work.  It is just not for me.  I have never used a shotgun that I felt fit me well.  Mt PS-90, and my other bullpups for that matter, all feel like they are a perfect fit when I shoulder them.  Even my AR's with adjustable stocks don't feel as natural, no matter how I adjust the stock.



 

I have kept shotguns for home defense in the past and sometimes still do throw one next to my bed. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with them. I tell you what, if there is another assault weapons ban I'll dang sure take a shotgun over an AR with a 10 round mag (that may even be non detachable), if we can even keep our ARs. I grew up in California and if I still lived there I'd have a pump action shotgun next to my bed.
Another scenario I can think of is if you don't have much money, for $200 you can buy a maverick 88 with a 20" barrel and 8rnd mag, versus $500 minimum for an AR.

Shotgun Pros:

• Intimidating as fuck.


• Huge knockdown power (if you hit)


• Less prone to legal scrutiny if you had to use it for legitimate home defense.


• Affordable and cheap for a pump shotgun

Shotgun Cons:

• Not conducive to 1 handed shooting. If one of your hands is injured, you're not going to effectively be able to operate a pump shotgun.


• Heavy when fully loaded. Can be an issue for smaller stature people and women.


• Heavy recoil.


• Over penetration. People counter-intuitively choose shotguns over AR's due to fears of over-penetration. Except what they don't realize is that 00 Buckshot over penetrates far worse than .223 and hollowpoint pistol rounds.


• Not very maneuverable in tight spaces due to 18" minimum length required.


• Limited capacity.  


• Manual of arms is complicated (pump shotgun). If you ever see anyone try and run a pump shotgun under stress, you'll see just how pump shotguns are about the worse for home defense. Even those who have a lot of experience running pump shotguns will end up short stroking and running into feed issues when under stress.

AR Pros:

• Holds more ammo and faster reloads


• Lighter in weight (if mall ninja enhancements are kept to a minimum)  


• More ergonomic and adjustable for people of all statures and sizes. (Women and even children are able to put more rounds on target faster and easier than shotgun)  


• More easily maneuverable in tight spaces due to slightly shorter length  


• Self defense ammo is both very effective and less prone for over penetration


• Manual of arms is much easier

AR Cons:

• Post self-defense legal scrutiny of using an "evil assault rifle"


• Can be more expensive


• Using without ear protection indoors pretty much guarantees hearing damage. Not that a shotgun blast is a walk in a park and wouldn't cause damage, but .223/5.56 is especially brutal.