I posted this here in hope of an honest, technical discussion.

I'd love to hear your opinion, but I'd like it laid out rationally, and without emotion.

I own several ARs, and other semi auto rifles.

That being said, my go to HD weapon has always been a shotgun. 18" 870 before I got into NFA, 13" after. Both with dedicated Surefire forends.

My thoughts:

- ARs have their place. I don't imagine needing a 30 round Pmag for bumps in the night.
- I don't imagine most robberies/home invasions involve the bad guy wearing soft armor. (Rifle not necessary)
- Over penetration is a concern for me.
- One shot fired, if landed properly, is more effective than a 5.56
- (Kind of redundant) Multiple wound channels.
- I believe any good AR15 to be reliable, but I feel pump action guns have a better track record from my own observation. (I'll give people of the opposite opinion that short stroking could be a problem under duress)
- Easier to defend legally, as shotguns are so common and accepted even outside the gun guy world.

I'd love to hear other people's (intelligent and well thought out) opinions. I can respect any man's gun choice, if there's logic behind it.

For a middle of the night grab and walk downstairs, I cannot think of a gun If rather have then one of my 870s.

Has anyone came to a different or similar conclusion?

I know this gets beat to death in GD. I'd like to have a calm, rational, technical discussion of shotguns as primary home defense weapons without hyperbole, name calling, or gifs.

Figured this would be a good place to post.

I posted in Shotguns, over General Firearm Discussion, because ideally, (for those that agree with me) I'd also like to touch on specific shotgun platforms and their advantages. (Semi /pump, 00 vs #1, etc)

We were awaken in a panic late one night by my daughter and her sleep over friend, we had been asleep for about maybe an hour when they came barging in all flustered.
I had a .380 pistol I grabbed and my very first thought was that I needed a bigger caliber gun and more bullets in it.......
Needless to say, as I made my way to the noise, I discovered the ice maker on our fridge got stuck on and it sounded just like someone jiggling a door knob.
Since then I never owned a .380 again. I feel good with one of my G17's, if I'm feeling frosty I'll get out the 870 and load 'er up. But I have no reservations about keeping out a 6.8spc AR or an AK for things that go bump in the night.

Thanks. A buddy of mine had a similar story with an automatic trash can lid. (Motion activated, thing went beserk.)

Do you have a preference?

I'd have no problem selecting an AR, but I chose an 870 if given the option. (And with no kids, my options are very open. Gun locks, etc)

Which is your first choice, and why?

My HD gun is a shotgun.

It works for me


I live in CT,  while I'm good on using my AR for my home, once I step foot off my property it's gets dicey.  

I have neighbors I will and have step Into  harms way to protect.  

Plus I have livestock and predators are a issue.  Shotgun pellets lose speed alot faster than spitzers and houses are rather close.

This is a big factor for me. I'm in northern Virginia, where everything is close. Not on top of you close, but certainly rifle range close.

Do you prefer #1 or 00? Why?

I use 00 because honestly, that's what I've always used. I currently load FliteControl 8 pellet. I've patterned it, and comfortable shooting it. I've patterned it to death.

Lot of talk about #1, might have to buy some to pattern and check out.  That being said, I'm so comfortable with 00, I don't know if I'd switch.

Still open to opinion based on experience, however.

I like both but my 14.7" AR with aimpoint is my #1 go to hd long gun. My 590 with hornady #4 buck in their"flight control" wad is my number 2.

fwiw Im 32 and been hunting heavily with Mossbergs since I was 10. I trained heavily in security forces with the 590. Since I got out of the Marines ive taken a few classes and really pushed myself to improve with all platforms. The video below is the worst malfunction ive ever had with a shotgun. I just happened to catch it on video.

It was a beautiful day out squirrel hunting with my hound. I wasnt getting shot at and had 0 adrenaline going. I think its a pretty good example why carbines rules for sd.

You may not need 30 rds but you may need more than 8.

I'm not familiar with these loads. Never considered them or was aware of them.  I'll do some research. Thanks for a good alternate viewpoint.

We do a decent amount of sim/force-on-force training for work, and that's what really changed my mind about pump guns as a primary, especially if you have other options available. Unscientific, but these are my observations:

-The shooting happens fast. Lots of rounds get fired if the fight isn't over in the first couple seconds upon first crossing paths.
-It's usually a surprise and really close.
-Squared up to your target, you get shot in the hands and forearms a lot.

So, my thoughts:
Even if you are channeling Miculek on PCP, you can't generate enough shots fast enough to compete with average chumps reflex shooting pistols under stress, and at five to nine round capacity, you can't sustain any kind of fire to push people around in a fight or cover your own move.

Also, If you catch a round to either arm, there's highly likely chance it will be a disabling hit that you can't power through on adrenaline. So if you use a weapon that requires both hands to regularly cycle on a good day, and you are down an arm, you are done. The same is to be said for any malfunctions.

Semi shotguns are a better option. They are absolutely devastating up close, generate good volumes of fire fast, but lack the sustaining fire. Reloads on the stock or side saddle help, but aren't a replacement for pistol/carbine mag capacity.

Carbine with a light still takes the cake. A pistol and a bright flashlight is the next best option.

At home defense ranges, I think the shotty is very hard to beat. We live in a neighborhood where the houses are packed together pretty tight and if I were to engage a ne'er-do-well breaking into my house, the shotty would probably be the best choice and then the pistol. I have 2 3/4" 00 buckshot, but am wanting to get a stack of some #1 buck, I've heard good things about it.
But as I have at least two police officers living within a three-house radius from me, the chances are.......well, you never know.
Now if I lived on a couple of acres of land where there were no other houses for a hundred yards or so and I had to worry about predators or two-legged ne'er-do-wells taking advantage of the isolation of my premises, then I'd probably prefer one of the AR's as they are outfitted with red dots and lights.
I think I'd relegate the AK's to SHTF and it's the EOTWAWKI scenarios where I wouldn't have access to batteries or cleaning supplies.

I use OO because I can almost always find it.  
But honestly I don't fret over buckshot loads.

I like flitecontrol because it's awesome but was content before it was available.


As far as over penetration. I don't feel that using a projectile designed to under penetrate is a good thing.  If I need to take a shot and the danger of hitting my family is great I'm not taking the shot.  

If I have to club the invaders  like a seal I will.

As technical as i care to get. If i can only get 1 shot off i can have 1 55gr projectile flying at them. Or...... 9 projectiles flying at them. ...

The 40gr TAP Urban load doesn't show up on Hornady's website.  I think the 55gr load would do well, and they claim it will work in 1:7 to 1:12 twist barrels.
 

For the guy who can't make up his mind:

A shotgun and an AR are loud.  I cannot imagine the damage to your hearing if you were to fire one in a hallway without hearing protection.  I have gone back to a 9mm pistol with a suppressor and a suppressed 300 Blackout AR as the immediate goto pieces.  

Both are legal; SOT holder/manufacturer.

You've made me think.

Thanks.

This is pretty much where I am, although I'm open minded on the subject. (Although 8 projectiles for me.)

Ha! Actually was looking into a Masterkey to finish my SR15, but to be honest it was just "because".

My Salvo 12 lives on my Wingmaster right now, but my SBS is threaded. I honestly haven't gotten around to swapping rod kits, and testing the shorter configurations.

Having the 12" kit in negates the shorter length. That being said, if the 8" helps, I'd consider it. I've just heard 10" is about as short as you can go while still being effective.

I've always valued suppression over length for silencers. I just didn't see the Salvo fitting the task. If it's supressing, it's adding too much to the gun. If it's in small configuration, it's not doing its job so no reason for it to be there.

It's not that bad with one or two rounds.

Sure you hear some ringing for a bit but  nothing that makes your ears bleed.
Nothing  that I would dwell on.

The room was about 10X10.  

I also got locked in a bathroom with a string of salutes.

I would say that it is situational. I live on acreage so if a round went through my window, the chances of it hitting a neighbor's house are slim. The kids are all gone so there isn't much risk inside either.

My bumps in the night are more likely to be outside the house from critters or the occasional poacher or drunk on a 4 wheeler. So for me, I go for my suppressed SBR. I'm comfortable with it, train with it, and it can handle trouble inside and outside my house. Loaded with the proper ammunition, the wounds are devastating. I keep a shotgun nearby too for the simple reason that my wife is more comfortable with it and has no desire to train with an AR.

Stepping outside my own bias, why do SWAT ( or whatever they're called these days ) primarily use rifles instead of shotguns? Surely they have the same concerns about overpenetration and stopping power, yet they seem to stick with rifles.

Before I retired I was responsible for analysis of major crimes for the department I worked for.  As such, I have read over 10,000 robbery reports.  I can tell you that the majority of home invasions (at least in my city) involved 3 or 4 suspects entering late at night and often yelling that they are police.  There was one report during that time that listed 10-11 suspects.

In addition to the other information people have posted, think about if you had to take a precision shot if a loved one was held hostage.  Could you do it with buckshot?  Many years ago before the department switched to patrol rifles we had some training in that area, and it is very hard thing to do.

For me my PS-90 is the perfect home defense gun.  50 rounds in a compact weapon that I can maneuver easily around the house, almost zero recoil, and very accurate.

This.

I can't come up with many scenarios where I can only get one shot off. This issue would be further mitigated by having a weapon that is easily controlled, maneuvered and can be operated by one hand.

I appreciate the conflicting views, and everyone's reasoning behind them.

Can someone explain why I'm reading more about #1 vs 00 these days?

I have my safe in my room, so I could theoretically choose either. (And have been given some things to think about)

So, since I posted in shotguns, what advantages does #1 have over 00? Why isn't 000 mentioned more?

(I'm thinking aloud)

my 8inch saiga 12 sbs with Russian folder is easily shot and controlled with one hand.

Just curious, what scenario are you picturing being able to only fire off one shot then?

I dont have fantasy scenarios. Ive worked more then a few robery amd home invasions were just one shot was fired. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

The Federal Flitecontrol wad is the only reason I still have a HD shotgun.  I just can't believe how tight the patterns are with it.  

I had tried changing chokes to try to get more out of cheaper loads and it is no contest.  The Federal Flitecontrol loads kick the rest to the curb.  

Years ago I spent time (due to work) in some different states where a shotgun was pretty much the only option for defense.  

If I had to live again in one of those places I would be comfortable with my Benelli M2.  I think there is something to be said for the handling of a shotgun that fits you.  Despite their advantages ARs are not in my hands instinctive "pointers".  

Meh, tell me how many of these home invasions(because street robbery has nothing to do with the subject of home defense weapon choice) occurred where the homeowner was only able to fire one shot. Where they otherwise prepared? I think you are drawing conclusions from my posts that aren't there. I have no problem with shotgun as a HD choice. I also believe in planning for the worst, and I firmly believe that ones choice of firearm doesn't matter nearly as much as reinforcing entrances and having an early warning system in place.

Absolutely.  As fired from my Rem. 1100 tactical, IC choke.  This is a game changer.



All 9 also are within a 12" circle at 50 yards.

You get my intangibles. Like I said, I have both. Very good options for both.

The more I try to learn, the more I feel personal preference triumphs.

That being said, I like to challenge my notions and remain open minded.

I had my model 12 out today. 6 rounds into a dessert sized paper plate at about the same distance.

The last 30 years with specific focus on the last 15 have show that AR's dominate shotguns in every facet when if comes to home defense.

Meh,  I still carry a snub too.

I'm just not that cool.

I've seen your posts, throughout this site, and respect your opinion.

You need to give more specifics in this case, however.

Honestly, I don't even know where to begin. the whole thing has been done to death on here, and picked apart to the most minute detail.

 

Ar's are easier to operate, faster to operate both in going to a firing condition, and getting on target and transitioning targets. They are of faster to reload and have a higher capacity. 5.56 from a terminal ballistics standpoint is more than capable of stopping threats, and due to it's high velocity can still maintain effective terminal ballistics while reducing missed shots going through too much construction material (walls and such).  Any shotgun load that is going to have capable terminal ballistics is going to do so through denser projectiles like 00 buck.  That density is what raises penetration but anything that can penetrate a person to stop them at that low of a velocity will carry through pretty much everything else in a house. 5.56 has a very lo mass but very high velocity which means when it passes from one density to another it likes to tumble and break apart into smaller even less dense pieces (I.E. air to bad guy, or air to 2x4).  Buckshot being round of course doesn't do that.


The GWOT and the trickle down of technology for the civilian market between ammo, accessories, an all that have made the AR style rifle probably the most efficient weapons for shooting people in a room ever developed.  Shotguns at this point establish nothing more than a minimum baseline by which I mean they still work, AR's just work a lot better. That's part of what GD can't wrap thier brain around is that it's not zero sum, the effectiveness of AR's in the HD role doesn't make shotguns worse. Shotguns are just the same as they've always been while the AR continued to improve. Of course, the effectiveness of shotguns for HD can be increased by retrofitting them to take accessories that were developed for AR's.  


Terminal ballistics wise the shotgun gives a false sense of effectiveness.  Up close you might as well shoot slugs because the pattern doesn't spread much which effectively makes the shotgun a slow low capacity rifle.  By the time the pattern opens up enough to have the spread help make CNS hits to make up for off shots, it's almost outside of typical HD range for indoors.  At further distances the spread is so great you get more misses than hits with shot so once again slugs make up for it but return the shotgun to a slow low capacity rifle.


then ther's 30 years of police and military transitioning away from shotguns and sub guns because AR's/ m-16's just work better for smoking people in rooms.


I like shotguns, I love running my M12 like a beast just to show off that it can be done.  Love my A5's and everything. I could effectively use any one of them for HD and be fine.


I'll still take my rifle over any shotgun when the question of "if I had to shoot a person in the house what would I want to use" is asked.  

I'm invested in #1BB.  Why?
11 x .30" projectiles vs. 8 x .33" projectiles.  To me, the 37.5% increase in pellet count outweighs the 10% increase in pellet size.  Sure the 00 pellets weigh more (about 4% more) and thus should penetrate slightly more.  But how much more?  And is it enough to claim that 00 Buck is a superior HD load to #1BB?  Not in my opinion (for what that's worth to anyone but me.)
I had a long discussion with a veteran police investigator here who presented some compelling personal anecdotes regarding the superior lethality of 00 Buck vs. #1 Buck.  But I got the impression that, statistically, his experience was highly weighted towards 00.
I've got enough #1BB now to last me a lifetime of 6-month long SHTF scenarios, and enough defense experts choose #1 that I don't see a need to change.
 

This is a question that I have often thought about myself, so I enjoyed reading all the comments. Some definitely made me think.

My go-to HD weapon has for years been a mossberg 500. I figure that if something were to happen in the middle of the night I'll be super fuzzy and confused till the adrenaline gets pumping. Till then I want a little spread so I don't have to be super accurate. Extended mag tube, I think its 7+1, I always figured would be enough. Never wanted to rely on a semi-auto, I've never owned one that I would bet my life on working 100% every time.

PIstols are generally out for me, I don't really shoot them all that well in daylight with no adrenaline.

After reading some comments, I can see a carbine being a wise choice for more ammo capacity. And honestly I never thought about being injured and trying to work a shotgun, that could be a problem. I might have to switch something up. But for the life of me I can't figure out why everyone wants a light? I have pretty good night vision and feel that a light is either going to a) ruin that for me or b) give away where I'm at. I'd prefer to stay in the shadows and fight it out with them not being 100% sure where I am.

Have you ever shot inside a room?  Have you ever had to positively ID something as a threat in darkness?

 

Your plan sounds like it's predicated on good luck and banking on bad guys not having lights of thier own.

so you're admittedly fuzzy and you want to rely upon your "pretty good" night vision?

Thats a little scary

I know for me I need to positively, that means without a doubt, ID a threat before I shoot'

Yes, I've shot inside a room, not sure what that is getting at, other than a suppressor would be nice! . If its in my house and not in my bedroom its a threat. I would think a verbal warning would be enough to make sure. Appreciate the feedback. Like I said I'm willing to switch it up if someone comes up with good enough reason.

If 20+ years of evidence that a weapons light greatly aids in stopping threats in the dark isn't a "good enough" reason then I don't know what to tell you.  

 

Looks like I'm light shopping. I'll give it a try!

Overpenetration ?

Check out the box o' truth...

Overpenetration ? A factor for both. Push (arguments exist on both sides unless you use birdshot, which is a lousy choice for defense)
Ease of operation under stress? Rifle wins
Accuracy/precision ? Rifle wins
Recoil management ? Rifle wins
Ammo capacity? Rifle wins
Lethality? Push (buck or bullet will kill somebody equally dead... Birdshot is for birds, not people)

Only reason to choose shotgun is if that's what you have closest. All other arguments based on feels and mythology, not facts.

I just use a cheap surefire G2 with an aftermarket 400 lumen bulb.  On my rifle it was easy to set up to use the pushbutton on the tail cap, for shotguns there's other ways to adapt them, and other lights. video of the stock crappy 60 lumen on the left, replacement on the right.

You must have a big room.



The longest shot I can foresee myself taking in a home invasion scenario is about 30 feet.  At that distance the buckshot I'm firing will pattern at about six inches.



It's a common myth that you don't have to aim a shotgun.  You probably know that.  Your choice of words just seemed 'odd' to me.



 

This is a great thread.  

I love debates that are civil.