Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Posted: 7/7/2015 10:42:36 AM EDT
I just received a Model 12 that I picked up for cheap off of Gunbroker.  I suspected that I was buying a project, since the price was so cheap and it was obvious that it was neglected from the photos.  

There were three issues immediately apparent in the photos that would make this particular gun not worth much to the average buyer.  The gun had a lot of bluing wear and surface rust/corrosion.  The buttplate was broken and the toe of the stock was chipped.  The barrel was cut down to about 24".  Since I like patina, a short length of pull, and a short barrel, none of these flaws mattered to me.  Plus, it just looked like it needed rescuing, so I bought it and hoped for the best.

Upon arrival yesterday, I wasn't very happy.  The mag tube wasn't secured, and the bolt was stuck in the back of the receiver.  So much for a quick function check.  

After disassembly and a good cleaning, I'm more hopeful that it isn't a total basket case.  The trigger group seems to be in order as does the bolt (breech block).  The screws are all buggered up and will need replacing.  Looks like the biggest issue will be the mag tube.  

The mag tube has a number of dents on it; looks like some idiot took a tool to it to break it loose or something.  The follower will not come out because of these dents, so this is certainly something that will need to be addressed.  Any chance of fixing this (hammering a wood dowel or something to smooth from the inside), or will it need to be replaced?  

Anything else that I should check for while it is disassembled?

Disclaimer:  I'm not a gunsmith, and this is my first Model 12.  
Link Posted: 7/7/2015 10:51:03 AM EDT
[#1]
If you cant repair the mag tube with a mandrel you can buy a replacement from Nu-line guns. They bought up all the Model 12 parts.Check the firing pin. I bought an old Model 12 in a pawnshop many years ago and the firing pin had been broken so long that both sides of the broken pin were peened round and it still worked fine.
Link Posted: 7/7/2015 12:44:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you cant repair the mag tube with a mandrel you can buy a replacement from Nu-line guns. They bought up all the Model 12 parts.Check the firing pin. I bought an old Model 12 in a pawnshop many years ago and the firing pin had been broken so long that both sides of the broken pin were peened round and it still worked fine.
View Quote

Thanks.  I noticed that it says that the tube is "pre-machined".  What fitting is involved to install a new tube?

The firing pin seems solid.  When I held the firing pin retractor down, the firing pin moved freely back and forth; I held the back and tip between my fingers and they moved in unison, so it is still in one piece.
Link Posted: 7/7/2015 2:38:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Midwest Gun Works.  They have Winchester M12 parts.  I got some screws, etc. for my Browning Auto 5 from them a few years ago.  Oh, and a couple firing pins for my BDM.  They have good service/fast shipping.

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/winchester-model-12-magazine-tube-assembly
Link Posted: 7/8/2015 10:03:28 AM EDT
[#4]
A little progress was made last night.  I took the buttstock off and ultrasonic cleaned the receiver.  It is now soaking in ATF; I don't really expect it to dissolve the rust, but is was too late to break out the air compressor to dry the receiver after removing it from the UC so it was easier to soak it in ATF.

After ultrasonic cleaning, the breech block, trigger group, and receiver all look to be in good shape.  The only parts that appear to have some wear on them are the hammer and ejector.  All cam surfaces look good.  I believe that once I get the magazine tube sorted out, it will be a nice shooter.

Next steps:  
Fix or replace mag tube.
Cut down buttstock and install pad.
Cut barrel and install bead.
Link Posted: 7/13/2015 11:14:04 AM EDT
[#5]
Made some more progress this weekend.  I won a complete mag tube assembly off of ebay and already received it.  The mag tube looks great (no dents).  The spring was crap- much thinner than the one that came in my gun and kinked.  No big deal since I only needed the tube and one mag plug screw.  I have yet to reassemble the magazine since I am waiting on a forend wrench that I ordered from Midway in order to remove the forend from the old tube.

After having thoroughly cleaned the bolt, trigger group, and receiver, I reassembled the receiver group.  I temporarily attached the old mag tube assembly to test for function.  The slide is smooth, the bolt locks up good, the action lock works as it should.  I did manage to drop the hammer out of battery once, but I could not repeat it.  I'm not sure if it was related to the hodgepodge (loose mag tube, no stock, etc) way that I was testing.  I will have to test this condition again once firmly reassembled.

I cut the barrel down to 18.5".  I used a pipe cutter to score a line, cut it with a hacksaw, then cleaned it up with a file and stones.  I chamfered the inside of the bore with a round grinding ball just to clean up the cut/file work.  I'll install a .175 brass bead once it arrives (also ordered from Midway).  

I cut the buttstock down to my desired length of pull (13").  I cut it with a negative toe (85 degree angle from the top drop), since I will be using this for competition (aiming at ground targets instead of ones in the air).  This also served the purpose of completely removing the damaged part of the stock.  I found a take-off brown Pachymyer Decellerator pad in of my buttpad box that won't take a ton of grinding to fit.  

More to come...
Link Posted: 7/14/2015 12:36:29 AM EDT
[#6]
This is a very cool project but, I can't help but feel like something is missing. Hmmmm........., If only there was a device that would capture an Image and allow others to see what you're working on.
Link Posted: 7/14/2015 9:56:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is a very cool project but, I can't help but feel like something is missing. Hmmmm........., If only there was a device that would capture an Image and allow others to see what you're working on.
View Quote


I know, I know.  I do this every time.  I plan to document the process with photos, then end up tearing into it without taking any.  After I get started, I feel like it is too late since the "before" images are lost.

Here are the "Before" images from the auction:
Model 12
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/490995000/490995898/pix988378212.jpg
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/490995000/490995898/pix601117019.jpg
Link Posted: 7/14/2015 9:05:14 PM EDT
[#8]
That's better. Yeah man, start putting them up from here on out. Is the model 12 a takedown?
Link Posted: 7/15/2015 2:34:20 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I know, I know.  I do this every time.  I plan to document the process with photos, then end up tearing into it without taking any.  After I get started, I feel like it is too late since the "before" images are lost.

Here are the "Before" images from the auction:



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is a very cool project but, I can't help but feel like something is missing. Hmmmm........., If only there was a device that would capture an Image and allow others to see what you're working on.


I know, I know.  I do this every time.  I plan to document the process with photos, then end up tearing into it without taking any.  After I get started, I feel like it is too late since the "before" images are lost.

Here are the "Before" images from the auction:




Link Posted: 7/16/2015 10:49:22 AM EDT
[#10]
A Day of Mistakes

Got some more work done on the Model 12 yesterday, and made some mistakes.  We learn from our mistakes, so I guess I'm still learning...  

Mistake #1:  After cutting the stock, I test fit the recoil pad.  There was just a sliver of light between the stock and pad at the toe when held up to the light.  Would have been fine, but it would have also bothered me.  I decided to make the butt of the stock perfectly flat with my disk sander.  It didn't work, in fact it did the opposite.  I figured that I would then need to sand it back to flat with my belt sander, but the belt broke .  I ended up having to do it the old fashioned way, which was best anyways.  I laid a piece of thick glass (a flat surface) on my bench and placed a sand paper sheet on top, and sanded the butt flat by hand.  3 pieces of sand paper and 30 minutes later, the butt was perfectly flat.  I did the same to the pad (don't assume that the base of the pad is perfectly flat) and now they mate together perfectly.

Mistake #2:  Moving on to installing a new bead on the cut barrel.  I had thought ahead and used a string between the old bead hole (prior to cutting the barrel) and the receiver to scribe a line for the new bead to ensure that it would be perfectly centered.  I used a center punch to dimple the metal at that scribed mark.  I drilled a pilot hole at the dimple.  So far so good.  I then used the drill bit that came with the tap.  Unfortunately, the step up from the pilot hole to the drill bit must have been too big.  The edge of the drill bit caught on the hole and drilled the hole off center.  In hopes to compensate for the now off-center hole, I tapped it at an angle in hopes to skew the bead towards the center.  I don't think that it will work, but we will see when the bead is delivered.  Luckily, I cut the barrel at about 18 3/4", so if I need to, I can cut the barrel to the back of the off-center hole.  It will end up very close to the legal 18".  Too close for comfort, but it will be the only way to properly correct the mistake.

I took some pictures and will try to get the posted later today.

In-N-Out- All Model 12's are take-downs.  A very cool feature and one that I don't know why isn't being used today in a modern shotgun.  An 18" Mossberg 500 or Remy 870 take-down would be a big hit with the bug-out, prepper crowd.

Photos added:
Don't need this part:
" />

or this part:


Tapping hole for bead:

Link Posted: 7/16/2015 6:36:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


In-N-Out- All Model 12's are take-downs.  A very cool feature and one that I don't know why isn't being used today in a modern shotgun.  An 18" Mossberg 500 or Remy 870 take-down would be a big hit with the bug-out, prepper crowd.
View Quote

Awesome, I did not know that. Also, I believe you can slam fire those, just like the 1897.
Link Posted: 7/17/2015 9:00:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Awesome, I did not know that. Also, I believe you can slam fire those, just like the 1897.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


In-N-Out- All Model 12's are take-downs.  A very cool feature and one that I don't know why isn't being used today in a modern shotgun.  An 18" Mossberg 500 or Remy 870 take-down would be a big hit with the bug-out, prepper crowd.

Awesome, I did not know that. Also, I believe you can slam fire those, just like the 1897.


Yep.  Most of the old pump guns ('97, Model 12, Stevens 520, Ithaca 37) do not have a disconnector and can be slam fired.  Another cool feature that you won't find in modern guns (the corporate lawyers would never allow it today).
Link Posted: 7/20/2015 9:44:48 AM EDT
[#13]
Just a quick update on this project.  I didn't get much done this weekend, because I was sick- just didn't feel up to sweating in the garage.

I got the recoil pad ground to fit the stock.  Pretty pleased with the job.  Only hit the stock once with the sanding disk.  A little wood stain covered up this oops.  

The forearm wrench and bead sight arrived from Midway.  I assembled the magazine and installed the bead on the barrel.  Tapping the hole at an angle seems to have skewed the bead enough towards the center that it isn't really noticeable that the hole isn't perfectly centered.  I can tell when I look at it closely, but it looks centered when I mount the gun.  I'm just going to roll with it, instead of re-cutting the barrel to 18.0".  Still need to grind the threaded portion of the bead smooth to the inside of the barrel.  Then I can reassemble everything and function test.

I did find one other potential flaw.  While I had the forearm off, I smoothed the action bar with 600 grit sand paper.  When held up against a straight edge, the action bar is not perfectly straight.  It has a very slight bend down towards the end of the bar.  Maybe someone tried to break it down without having the action bar completely out of the receiver??  I was going to try to bend it straight, but didn't want to risk snapping it in half.  One more thing to wait until after the function check to determine if it needs fixing...

Here are all of the cleaned parts waiting for reassembly.  Notice the dents in the old mag tube?
Link Posted: 7/22/2015 11:22:11 AM EDT
[#14]
Bad news!  
After reassembling everything and running through the function checks, I discovered that it is out of time.  The trigger will drop the hammer if pulled out of battery (yes, I know that the Model 12 will slam-fire; That isn't what this is).  If you pull the trigger early and release it, the gun will fire once pumped forward.  The hook on the action slide lock is supposed to hold the hammer until the bolt is in battery.  It then drops the hammer onto the trigger sear.  On mine, the hammer and trigger sears are engaged while the action slide lock is touching the hammer lug (the hammer is too far forward when engaged with the action slide lock).  It looks like some hack re-contoured the hammer lug.  Instead of the hook on the action lock wrapping over the top of the hammer lug, the tip of the hook barely touches the lug at one point.  Not good.

Now the question is where to go from here.  The gun is functional if used in the normal manner (pull the trigger when you want it to go bang).  Slam-firing it would be a potentially dangerous condition though since the action slide lock doesn't have good engagement with the hammer.  I can buy another trigger group in hopes to get one in better shape.  I can buy a new hammer in hopes that it corrects the issue (the action slide lock might also need replacing).  The problem there is that after doing so, am I just going to discover the problem that caused the previous hack to re-contour the lug?

The correct answer is to probably part it out and cut my losses, but I've got over 20 hours of work into this gun.  I'm not giving up on her yet...
Link Posted: 7/23/2015 12:01:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Yeah, you're far too committed to back down now, besides, it's only money.
Link Posted: 7/23/2015 12:29:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Upon some more careful inspection, the hammer may not have been filed.  The surface that looks bad is actually the front of the lug (not a mating surface) so it might just be some rough machining.  The actual mating surface with the slide lock hook has some wear on it (you can see a groove where the hook has been rubbing.  The tip of the hook has also been rounded.  Maybe just honest wear...

I did notice that the action lock went up smoothly most of the way, but was harder at the end of the travel.  The hammer pin looked flush to the surface on that side, but I gave it a couple of taps to recess it slightly.  Also blasted every recess with CLP until it leaked out from all orifices.  The action lock seems to pivot easier throughout its full motion.  I can now get the action lock hook to grab and hold the hammer prior to being seated in the trigger sear (where it is supposed to be).  Whether or not this will happen once reassembled is yet to be seen.  I doubt it, but I have a glimmer of hope.  

I do want to address the bent slide action bar.  Anybody know the best way to straighten it out?  I'm apprehensive about just putting the end in my vice and bending it; a replacement is $125 so I'd obviously prefer not to snap it in half.

I'm going to shoot it this weekend to see if there are any other issues that I don't know about yet.  I don't want to replace any more parts until I confirm that it is salvageable.  Don't want to throw good money after bad.  At this point though, I've got too much time invested to give up on her.
Link Posted: 7/23/2015 3:27:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:I do want to address the bent slide action bar.  Anybody know the best way to straighten it out?  I'm apprehensive about just putting the end in my vice and bending it; a replacement is $125 so I'd obviously prefer not to snap it in half.
View Quote


How bent is it? I'll go back and look at your pictures but I don't remember seeing that one.
Link Posted: 7/23/2015 3:32:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


How bent is it? I'll go back and look at your pictures but I don't remember seeing that one.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:I do want to address the bent slide action bar.  Anybody know the best way to straighten it out?  I'm apprehensive about just putting the end in my vice and bending it; a replacement is $125 so I'd obviously prefer not to snap it in half.


How bent is it? I'll go back and look at your pictures but I don't remember seeing that one.

Not much.  You have to hold it to a straight edge to tell.  Considering that it actuates the slide lock (which interacts with the hammer) and is responsible for the bolt lock-up position, I would imaging that being off by a few thousandths could be impactful.
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 7:59:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Always  nice to see a Mod 12 saved. I just finished mine yesterday, 1938 vintage with great bluing and little wear. The bad news was the barrel was cut from 30in to 25. Even at 25 I could still see the barrel damage. I had my gunsmith cut and re-bead the barrel at 22in. Next problem was the most bubbaed up gunsmithing in Ohio. Looks like they didn't know how to take it apart but did so anyway. Barrel ext was smashed, mag tube damaged and every screw a mess. I was able to repair the barrel ext and magazine tube to serviceable  condition. The end result is a nice shooting Mod 12 at 22inches. I have another, 1949 28in modified choke with a vent rib barrel.  You lucked out with used magazine tube.
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 11:10:54 AM EDT
[#20]
For those of you who have patiently read through this thread without photos, here is one of the assembled shotgun:
" />
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 4:36:16 PM EDT
[#21]
Hey, that looks great man. Have you had a chance to test fire it yet. I'm wondering if that bent rod is causing any issues?
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 4:52:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Hey, that looks great man. Have you had a chance to test fire it yet. I'm wondering if that bent rod is causing any issues?
View Quote


I'm going to fire it tomorrow.  I believe that the bent rod is causing the slight bolt droop.  It could also have an effect on the timing, though I believe that the direction that it is bent is probably helping the action lock/hammer lug engagement.
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 5:50:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Looks good. I might have to look for one as a project. Are all of these take downs?
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 7:34:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Alumihyde or duracoat that shotty and gooooooooooo.

that is a helluva project.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 3:16:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Alumihyde or duracoat that shotty and gooooooooooo.

that is a helluva project.
View Quote


Hell no!!

That's called patina. Kano Kroil the rusty spots and leave it alone.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 11:13:38 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Hell no!!

That's called patina. Kano Kroil the rusty spots and leave it alone.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Alumihyde or duracoat that shotty and gooooooooooo.

that is a helluva project.


Hell no!!

That's called patina. Kano Kroil the rusty spots and leave it alone.


Ok..ok....
I understand some men have a fascination with Patina..and her Donkey show.
Link Posted: 7/26/2015 1:38:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Ok..ok....
I understand some men have a fascination with Patina..and her Donkey show.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Alumihyde or duracoat that shotty and gooooooooooo.

that is a helluva project.


Hell no!!

That's called patina. Kano Kroil the rusty spots and leave it alone.


Ok..ok....
I understand some men have a fascination with Patina..and her Donkey show.


Really? Unnecessary behavior.
Link Posted: 7/27/2015 9:54:00 AM EDT
[#28]
No way am I refinishing it.  It took 60 years of abuse to look like that; she's earned every bit of patina.

Shot a box of shells through it this weekend.  It shot great!  Only one bobble where the shell got hung up on the edge of the chamber when loading, and I had to retract the slide and push forward again to load it.  Maybe related to the carrier being slightly bent?

I'm going to order a new Action Slide Lock to see if that will fix the out-of-time issue.  I'll shoot it (in competition only) in the meantime though.
Link Posted: 7/31/2015 10:09:29 AM EDT
[#29]
To update those that have been following along:

Someone sent me a good trigger assy to use for troubleshooting which I received it yesterday.  Swapped it in and the out-of-time issue went away.  The action was not as smooth though; I think that my bent action bar has some interference with the slide lock.  This tells me that my action lock is worn down to accommodate.  

As far as a visual comparison, the hammer lug shape is the biggest difference.  The good one has a large chamfer that makes the front surface of the lug a nice sharp triangle.  My chamfer is much smaller.  The strange thing is that I would think that the larger chamfer would make the problem worse.

The action slide locks look the same, but I haven't broken out the calipers yet.  I did notice that it is tighter fitting on the good one.  Mine almost has a wobble to it (which could certainly affect the timing).  Maybe my screw isn't tight?  I'll have to remove the trigger to check it.

I'll start with the loose action slide lock first, since this would be a free fix.  If that doesn't work, I'll buy another complete assembly (cheaper than buying a new slide lock or hammer).  Also need to straighten the action slide bar... and the carrier (I was able to confirm that mine is bent by comparing it to yours)...

Progress is being made.  I'm going to end up having a lot of time and money into this "budget" Model 12.  I guess that the couple hundred extra dollars are going into an education on the inner workings of the Model 12... and a pile of spare parts...  

The satisfaction of bringing the basket case (probably should have ended up being a parts gun) of a Model 12 back into tip-top service will make it all worth it.
Link Posted: 7/31/2015 11:00:21 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
... The satisfaction of bringing the basket case (probably should have ended up being a parts gun) of a Model 12 back into tip-top service will make it all worth it.
View Quote

I bought an Auto-5 from Gunbroker that ended up having serious issues due to "home gunsmithing". It was expensive and time consuming to troubleshoot and repair everything, but I did get a feeling of satisfaction from bringing an old classic back from the dead. And now I'm a pretty good Auto-5 mechanic, if I do say so myself.
Link Posted: 7/31/2015 4:39:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I bought an Auto-5 from Gunbroker that ended up having serious issues due to "home gunsmithing". It was expensive and time consuming to troubleshoot and repair everything, but I did get a feeling of satisfaction from bringing an old classic back from the dead. And now I'm a pretty good Auto-5 mechanic, if I do say so myself.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
... The satisfaction of bringing the basket case (probably should have ended up being a parts gun) of a Model 12 back into tip-top service will make it all worth it.

I bought an Auto-5 from Gunbroker that ended up having serious issues due to "home gunsmithing". It was expensive and time consuming to troubleshoot and repair everything, but I did get a feeling of satisfaction from bringing an old classic back from the dead. And now I'm a pretty good Auto-5 mechanic, if I do say so myself.

What problems did it have and how did you fix them?
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 12:54:19 AM EDT
[#32]
What buttpad is it that you installed?  I'd like to shorten and soften the recoil a little on mine.
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 9:32:43 AM EDT
[#33]
It's fixed!  I took my trigger assembly apart to see why the action slide lock felt loose compared to the good one.  Once I had it off, I noticed that the hook part seemed to be bent out and twisted (away from the hammer lug).  I straightened it out, reassembled everything, slapped the assy back into the gun, and function tested.  Pulled the bolt slightly out of battery, pulled the trigger, and no click!  I could feel the trigger return spring which means that the action lock was successfully holding the hammer off of the trigger sear.  I was fist pumping like Tiger Woods at Augusta.

I shot it in a match yesterday.  It ran great all day.  I can't say the same about myself since I'm a double shooter and wasn't used to the pump.  I had a lot of fun though.


Tangotag- The recoil pad is a Pachymyer Decelerator pad.  This one is a 3/4" thick one which I'm not sure that you can still get.  The standard is 1" thick.  I use them on all of my cowboy shotguns.  They are comfortable, look right on old shotguns, and grind nice.
Link Posted: 8/3/2015 9:44:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Except for the scratches that wood almost looks too nice for the finish. It is one of the things I love about older shotguns. Heck, any older weapon. They were using some beautiful wood on standard grade firearms.
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top