per this article:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/foghorn/protip-saiga-12-gauge-shotguns-are-terrible/

and some comments I have heard from three gunners, the consensus is that S12s can never be made 99.99% reliable, at least not when run hard.  

when I think about it, I am not surprised.  Tryign to push feed a completely square nose cartridge up a short ramp at a high rate of speed is really at the margins of design practicality I suppose.  I think suppose the compbnation of it being an automatic and box fed at the same time it just asking too much of a reworked AK.

I have one, a SBS actually, so I am kind of stuck w/ it.  I was thinking about maybe just making it into a pump.  The draw back to tube fed magazine SBS is the loss in ammo capacity.  Maybe I can have a sweet short SBS that is also high capacity being box fed AND is reliable if I convert it to manual operated...

The problem w/ turning an auto into a pump is that the breech doesn't lock, I mean it locks into battery, but not so that the manual operation is locked out like a pump.  So, I suppose the best thing to do would be to just use the bolt knob to cycle it w/ my off hand (I am a lefty) and to replace the action spring w/ a weak 1911 spring so its easy to cycle and doesn't go into battery too fast.   If I trying to put some pump forearm on there, I am afraid I might pull the action out of battery while pulling hte gun into my shoulder or whatever.    

How did they address this in the pump action ar15s?  Does the forearm mechanism somehow lock when the gun is in battery after reload or is  it just up to the operator to not pull on it while aiming?

It would be easy enough to remove the gas systen parts and put a tube on the barrel w/ a rod that pushes on the bolt carrier where the op rod did, or to attach the op rod to the tube forearms thing, but there would be nothign to keep the operator from inadvertantly pullling it out of battery.

Just get a expert saiga Smith like Anthony at evlutionz LLC make it 100% and use a factory mag or csspec. He is currently re birthing my S12 sbs from shotty work I had done by the first person I let work on it.

They can be 100% reliable when driven extremely hard.

100 rounds of Winchester Universal in a Saiga 12.... flawlessly

What he said!  Contact him if you want it made 100%

My SBS has run 100% as well.  Mostly on Federal bulk pack.

+1

Off topic, but congrats on your daughter, Josh. Mine is about to take me out to breakfast. Time flies ;)

Thanks, I'm looking forward to everything but the teen years.  If I could just have her skip from pre-teen to adult that would be fine with me.

what are csspec?

That is not a very large sample size.  I looked at your vids, there is anohter 100 rd test where you had a stoppage.  Not shitting on your vids or your work, better than I could do surely, but can you tell me you will ever feel as confident about it as w/ a super black eagle or one of their recoil operated autos?

I have had very good luck w/ mine, provided the gas port is set correct for the ammo.  its just that if Jerry Micrulek can't keep his running w/o death jams at matches, I'm left in doubt about the ability of a reworked AK to high speed ramp feed ammo designed to be fed off a lifter.

ARs or AK or G3s etc can all have 10,000 MRBS w/ the basest of maintenance.  But a S12?  

Listen, "I want to belive," I just have a hard time beliveing that 12 gauge ammo can be as reliably auto fed out of a box as out of a tube.

http://stores.csspecs.com/saiga-12-gauge-8-round-steel-magazine/

Shotshells were never designed to be fed off a lifter, but thanks to over a hundred years of engineering, we have lifters that work.



As for MRBF, this depends entirely on ammo in many cases, especially shotshells. Even the hallowed and touted as magical Benellis can only reach your MRBS mark with buckshot loads specifically inspected before use, not a box of el cheapo ammo from wallyworld.



If you don't like the saiga/vepr shotguns, don't buy one and stick to the tube fed world.



Personally I've yet to find anything my vepr12 won't eat (someone is always welcome to send me 10,000 shells for a torture test, I will happily record it! ) and currently the longest string I've had was a case of Federal Top Gun without any hiccup, although I had to get a work glove out of my truck to hold the handguard and help with sore thumb from loading mags.



 

well, I suppose shot shells do predate the tube fed gun.   I guess the geometry just seems more forgiving between the shell and the chamber when being fed off a lifter than off a box magazine follower.

A box fed rifle has similar geometry, but the case is pointy and has a taper, so that arrangement seems more forgiving than trying to do it w/ shotgun shells too.

Where are you getting the idea that making it a pump will change the feed geometry?

I didn't.

the point is that the box magazine feed geometry combined w/ the high speed cycic rate both eat at either edge of the margin of reliability, leaving one a tiny margin where everyting has to be perfectly tuned and maintained to be reliable.  Its sort of like comparing a race car to an old truck.

a tube fed auto or a box fed manual only give up the margin from one thing, not two.

The Saiga 12 is perfectly capable of working just as well as any other semi-auto shotgun.  It doesn't need to be perfectly tuned and maintained to run 100%.  The problem is that it's made by Russians of questionable sobriety.  Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you don't.  The bad ones can be made good by someone that knows what they're doing, like evl.  And just like any other semi-auto shotgun, they may not like all loads, but if you've got one that's in proper working order, it'll run most loads just fine.

Like I said, I want to believe.

then what of the experiences of the 3 gun community, among whom the S12 has garnered a bad name for shitting the bed during matches, often negating the benefits of faster reloads w/ difficult stoppages.

Any gun can and eventually will do this during a match, and even the greats will do so themselves with breaking the 180 or other issues.



Matches are suppose to be fun, if you're not having fun and you want to see something done the same way every time, go get a job watching assembly line robots (and hell even those break down and screw up time to time!).



I don't think you want to "believe" as much as you just want to sit back and complain about a firearm you've never even handled, but yet feel an expert about because you've read a couple reviews on the internet.

If you're just looking for a reason to buy one; they are now banned from import, so go buy one as an investment!



 

I have one already, for years.  I had two actually.  Both had been reliable.  Only stoppages is whith the SBS when shooting weaker ammo w/o adjusting the gas system.  

I just have pause.  Admittedly, the TTAG guy got a vodka special which left a bad taste in his mouth.

Show me one uncut video from anywhere with an average shooter firing 100 rounds of Winchester Universal 100% reliably in a 12 gauge shotgun of any length in 50 seconds or less. If you can do that, then show me one at 8" or less. Tube fed is 1800s tech and I'll take mag fed any day. I can have a 6.5" mag fed 12 ga that will run a fairly wide variety of ammo with 20 round capacity and not have a tube sticking out 3 feet past the barrel. For my intended use, choosing a mag fed semi-auto is a no-brainer. No harm intended, this is all in good fun and we all have our own perspective. Get what you want and have fun with it.

If you don't mind sharing, who built your SBS?

An aside, I implore anyone reading this to go find uncut 100 round or more videos of any shotgun firing weak loads 100% reliably. I can't find any other than my own and would be thrilled to see it. I'm getting bored and feel the urge to raise the bar again, but it is even  more boring raising my own bar over and over.

Feel free to show them the abortion S12 sbs hack job I sent you and how you brought it back to life. I don't mind

I have actually seen a pump Saiga 12. One of my customers up in Alaska built a sleeve on his forend so he could manually cycle the gun with less lethal stuff. It was a trip and you could tell the guy was a very talented machinist inventor person. The gun also fully functioned as a semi so I suppose it was basically like the M3.

For all of you saying these guns run 100% is that a new development? I know even some of the high end 3-gun guys never could seem to get them 100% I have always said that if I had to choose between my Saiga and my 1100 and had to bet which one would work it would be the 1100 every single time. Feel the same way about the Benelli m1/m2 guns.

The less then 100% people only say its on bird bulk. I don't own a S12 sbs to shoot birdshit. So ill be very happy with the 100% on the defensive buck that I need it for.

They can run 100%. That doesn't mean everyone who should be able to make them run like that can or will make them run like that. Most "builders" have a production mindset, not an all out performance mindset, even when they are charging for it. They achieve "good enough" and things stagnate with the desire to raise the bar being the furthest thing from their mind.

I'm saving that for a special time and place ;)

I guess Jerry M Runs a tube fed now but he was running a S12 for a while.  Form the link in the OP:


Everyone, I appreciate your comments and thougts, especially you evil for all your accomplishment w/ that little gun.

I havent shot much in the last couple years but I remember several of the best shooters trying to get these to run and failing. The guys at that level spare no expense and deal with top notch smiths.

My question is are any of the top shooters running them in competition??? If not why??

I think your gonna see a resurgence in competition soon. The tac47 mag well for the S12 was by far the best designed well with true ar15 style loading.  The problem was the mags sucked, sanding down sgm mags was just not ideal than if a purpose built mag would have been.  Cspecs is developing a metal drop free mag for the tac47 well. That with proper ammo (not bulk bird) with a tuned s12 will be a badass shotgun.

well shall see.  if anyone will have  a  motive to try it is is the three gunners.  

of course, i don't see how use of the tac47 mag well and cspecs mags would be any more reliable than the w/o the mag well but w/ the scpecs mags now?  Sure it would be slower reload but why more reliable?

Before the 3 gunners desparied of the s12:
Did they run magwells or not on their s12s?

did they have the sspecs mags availbe to them or not?

I traded into a Saiga that already had some work done to it. It was kind of an impulse trade and started to get nervous about it after reading of the trouble guns. I am impressed with this one.

The original owner bought the Saiga new and had State Line Gunshop (now renamed, I don't remember the new name) in Mason, NH do the work. He had it converted to a pistol grip (the right way, moving the FCG forward) and chopping the barrel back to 14". The gunsmith also shortened the gas system. He claimed it was 100% reliable with every shell he's ever tried, including Wal Mart bulk packs from Winchester, Federal and Remington.

I ran into a problem since it was a registered SBS. The backwards state I live in allows only factory made SBSs. Any others are considered "Sawed Off Shotguns" and illegal. So he had State Line permanently attach a long muzzle brake to bring the barrel length just over 18", he notified the ATF it was no longer in SBS configuration, and the trade was completed. As stupid as that brake looks it is very effective. I can dump a 20-round drum of full power slugs without it rising off target. Even shooting 3" magnums is comfortable.

I've tried everything from 3" buckshot to #9 light loads and everything in between. Even some "Rio" brand that makes my friend's stock Saiga choke. I've shot it with factory loads and handloads and have been unable to make mine malfunction, except once. A town resident came into the PD and asked to turn in some ammo they found when cleaning out their deceased parents' home. It's my job to "dispose" of the ammo turned in. The best way I've found to "dispose" of the ammo is to shoot it, as long as it's factory ammo. I disassemble any reloads or questionable rounds turned in. When I opened up this .30 ammo can I found some old Canadian "Canuck" brand paper 12ga shells that were obviously stored properly since they looked like they were bought yesterday. That has been the only shell that doesn't function in my converted Saiga. I really don't count it since it's not made anymore.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable about the functioning of the Saiga can give their opinion on this, but I think part of my Saiga's amazing reliability is the shortened gas system. Yes? No? Maybe? What do you guys think?

There are only a few things I want to change on it now. First is the forend. The Galil-style forend that the previous owner had installed on it looks and feels cheap. I bought a UTG rail system to use but it didn't fit because of the short gas system. I'm going to use either an AR FF forend or rail system, machined up top to clear the gas tube and I'll TIG the mounting points to work with the Saiga. Then I'll ditch the pistol grip for something that looks and feels better than the Galil-style POS on there, and swap the mount for the buttstock back to a folding mechanism. That's what the original owner had on it, but I had to have a fixed stock to get it into MA. Now I can have a folder so I have to try to figure out what buttstock it is and get a folder for it.

One way to make a restored Saiga 12 reliable is to ditch the Crapco G2 group, it's  geometry is meant for Ak rifles and the higher profile of their smaller bolt carrier. The 12 gauge bolt carrier is larger and sits lower in the receiver. This causes the bolt Carrier to drag heavily on the G2 hammer  slowing the action down significantly. Most hack builders try to compensate  by grinding down and polishing the bolt carrier which is expensive, time consuming and no guarantee of not creating more problems than it fixes. For about $10-15 more than a G2 fcg you can buy an Arsenal made group that is engineered FOR the Saiga 12. It's a US made group and is drop in ready. I simply put em in lube the rails and hammer with ball hitch grease and run the crap out of it till the trigger smooths out. One I haven't  cleaned in around 3000 rounds, with only 3 malfs one of which was caused by an ejected round spinning out so fast the front end of the casing re-entered the ejection port stopping the bolt. The other two I chalk up to a recoil shy operator who was limp wristing the gun causing the bolt to short stroke. After clearing the breech the second time we addressed stance, grip and recoil management and it stopped happening after that

Why can't you grind down the hammer instead?

You can, but its a very fine line between a hammer that correctly resets and one that either wont reset or follows which BATFE seems to frown on. As you grind down the camming surface of the hammer the geometry has to change slightly and maintaining the correct angle and removing just enough material to keep the hammer resetting is very tricky. If you hold a G2 hammer next to one of the Arsenal units you can visibly see how different a hammer engineered for the S12 really is from one meant for the AK47.

There was a smith on the net once upon a time who had worked out the milling process for correctly modifying a G2 and even posted up pics. The douches at S12 forums banned him because there were a bunch of hacks charging folks to grind and polish bolt carriers and they were scared it would cut into their business. The guy was a smart smith and could tell you how different AK variants needed slight tweaks to the G2 group to function correctly and that it was not really a one size fits all product.