The 22LR as a SD round.

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The 22LR as a SD round. (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 12/30/2013 10:34:30 PM EDT

Yeah, yeah, I know......................

But if you HAD to use the 22LR as a handgun self defense round, In your opinion, which brand/bullet/etc would you think would be the "best" round for SD purposes?

I'm thinking the good old Mini-Mag solid.

Posted: 12/30/2013 10:58:39 PM EDT

[#1]

I like the reliability of CCI ammo but I'd want something with more energy than a mini-mag so my pick is the CCI Stinger.

Posted: 12/30/2013 11:25:47 PM EDT

[#2]

I've thought seriously about this as arthritis makes shooting full-house pistols harder for me. I would choose the most reliable ammo I had for the gun, which today, is gemtech subsonics. They feed consistently in my buckmark.

Posted: 12/31/2013 11:28:19 AM EDT

[#3]

I have carried a pocket pistol loaded with Stingers before.

You would not want to be on the receiving end.

Posted: 12/31/2013 11:45:31 AM EDT

[#4]

I've thought about the Stinger.
Seems like the HP wouldn't get as much penetration as a solid?

Posted: 12/31/2013 1:51:55 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:

I've thought about the Stinger.

Seems like the HP wouldn't get as much penetration as a solid?

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The hole in the hollow point is very tiny and I doubt you are going to see much expansion.

However, the velocity is substantially higher than standard high velocity ammo.

I'd bet if you did a Google search, you could find someone who did do a penetration test comparing Stingers to Mini-Mags.

Posted: 1/1/2014 2:32:37 AM EDT

[#6]

I load my NAA Mini with Velocitors. It's generally my preferred round for any .22 that I'm carrying unless I'm wanting quiet.

ETA- I figure if I ever have to shoot something larger than a dog it's going to require multiple rounds; I have no illusions about that little 36gr bullet although I've seen folks killed with a single .22 round (shot placement as usual).

Posted: 1/1/2014 10:59:15 AM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

The hole in the hollow point is very tiny and I doubt you are going to see much expansion.

However, the velocity is substantially higher than standard high velocity ammo.

I'd bet if you did a Google search, you could find someone who did do a penetration test comparing Stingers to Mini-Mags.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I've thought about the Stinger.
Seems like the HP wouldn't get as much penetration as a solid?

The hole in the hollow point is very tiny and I doubt you are going to see much expansion.

However, the velocity is substantially higher than standard high velocity ammo.

I'd bet if you did a Google search, you could find someone who did do a penetration test comparing Stingers to Mini-Mags.

The Stingers are great for small game. I literally blew a bird almost in 1/2 with one when they first came out. They expand rapidly and violently on small animals

Against a human I would prefer a High Velocity 40 gr solid tip for the penetration.

Posted: 1/1/2014 11:21:53 AM EDT

[#8]

Under rated caliber for SD . Some very high performing .22 being produced today .
In particular the 3 CCI brands mentioned .

Posted: 1/2/2014 6:54:39 AM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
I like the reliability of CCI ammo but I'd want something with more energy than a mini-mag so my pick is the CCI Stinger.

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w676/8afuzzball/CC0050_zps07e81f9b.jpg

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This would be my vote if I absolutely had no other choice in calibers.

Posted: 1/3/2014 9:46:59 AM EDT

[#10]

CCI Velocitor is basically a 40gr, 1435fps, .22LR Gold Dot. If I was using a .22LR pistol as my HD/SD gun, that's what it would be loaded with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPjqCmsRTes

Posted: 1/3/2014 4:38:16 PM EDT

[#11]

Yep I would probably go with Velocitors as my top choice with Stingers and Aguila Super Maximums being runners up.

I would be interested to see the terminal performance of Federal Spitfire and Remington Vipers as well.

I usually shoot centerfire handguns more accurately so it would have to be a real bad situation.

Posted: 1/3/2014 6:06:05 PM EDT

[#12]

Stingers for me.

Posted: 1/3/2014 7:10:26 PM EDT

[#13]

Another vote for Velocitors. They are a bit faster a pistol than normal 40 grain hv ammo, but they really shine in a rifle length barrel. In a strictly non-scientific test, Velocitors literally blew up Starlings while normal high velocity hp ammo simply punched a hole through the birds. This was on the same day using the same rifle and at the same distance.

If I had to use rimfire, Id prefer a .22 Magnum... but if limited to .22 LR, I would stick with Velocitors.

Posted: 1/3/2014 11:55:08 PM EDT

[#14]

Here is a good read regarding this topic:

www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/1354/22-lr-for-self-defense/

EDIT: I don't know how to make it take you to the article by clicking on it. Sorry.

Posted: 1/4/2014 12:10:54 PM EDT

[#15]

I would not feel under gunned with a 10/22 with a 25 round mag. +1 on the Stingers.

Posted: 1/4/2014 8:26:59 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
I've thought about the Stinger.
Seems like the HP wouldn't get as much penetration as a solid?

View Quote

You don't want expansion in this case.

Just penetration.

I would personally recommend high/hyper velocity solids.

I have a box of remington truncated cone rounds just for this job, but don't plan on using it. They are more there in case my old man decides to ever have to carry one of the old revolvers he has sitting around collecting dust.

Posted: 1/7/2014 9:54:38 PM EDT

[#17]

I shot a full grow coyote that was running away from me at 50 feet bullet entered LH hind quarter and exited the RH side of neck it travel all the way thru the chest without hitting a bone. Exit wound was the size of my small finger. Dog died within seconds.

Remington golden bullet,

I would not use it for self defense but I have a lot of respect for the 22lr.

Posted: 1/7/2014 10:04:34 PM EDT

[#18]

CCI Stingers for me.

I don't use it for SD any longer but years back I would carry a Beretta 21 or S&W Airlite J-frame as a backup to a 1911 w/ spare mags..

That role falls to J-frame .38 now.

Posted: 1/8/2014 12:28:15 AM EDT

[#19]

Holy smokes, this thread stayed within the OP's question.

I like the Velocitors or Stingers. Just make sure whatever you choose feeds reliably.

Posted: 1/8/2014 7:55:33 AM EDT

[#20]

I would look into some match grade .22 in the 40 grain flavour.

Penetration is required so HP is out. Reliability needs to be high so I want .22 with high quality control so match grade it is. I haven't shot much match grade .22 ammo but I would guess that it is more reliable than the standard .22 out there.

Posted: 1/8/2014 10:01:07 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
I would look into some match grade .22 in the 40 grain flavour.

Penetration is required so HP is out. Reliability needs to be high so I want .22 with high quality control so match grade it is. I haven't shot much match grade .22 ammo but I would guess that it is more reliable than the standard .22 out there.

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Except most of the match grade ammo is either Standard Velocity or Sub Sonic. Too slow for SD use.

Posted: 1/8/2014 11:25:10 AM EDT

[#22]

Here's a great video showing penetration and expansion of four different CCI rimfire loads in ballistic gelatin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvdjdzB_ro

Penetration test in clear gel of FOUR .22 LR options from CCI; SEGMENTED HP, VELOCITOR, MINI-MAG HP, AND MINI-MAG SOLID. Shots are from 20 yards using a Ruger 10/22.

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Posted: 1/17/2014 12:54:47 AM EDT

[#23]

Stingers.

Spoke to a woman who used them in a justifiable shoot that left a perp dead. She shot him in the face as he tried to push into her front door. By the time EMS arrived, he was already burning in hell.

Obviously, shot placement helps.

Posted: 1/17/2014 10:21:13 AM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
Stingers.

Spoke to a woman who used them in a justifiable shoot that left a perp dead. She shot him in the face as he tried to push into her front door. By the time EMS arrived, he was already burning in hell.

Obviously, shot placement helps.

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Now that's a story with a happy ending..........................

40Gr solids are your best choice for .22 Defense loads

Posted: 1/17/2014 11:42:31 AM EDT

[#25]

Some of my history with .22 ammo is:
CCI Mini Mags and Aguila copper plated ammo both feed reliably in all my semiautos (most copper plated ammo is good, but those two brands stand out for reliable feeding)
My kids in 4H use the entry level target ammo the CMP sells (Aguila) and it has a high degree of accuracy for the money.
Since Aguila was in stock (and CCI wasn't in stock) and Aguila is known by me to be reliable and accurate I got some of that.

Here's the highest velocity ammo I could find for my new project:

Aguila Super Maximum, Hyper Velocity, Round Nose, 30grain--- Velocity: 1750 fps
Aguila Super Maximum, Hyper Velocity, Hollow Point, 30grain--- Velocity: 1750 fps
Aguila Interceptor, Round Nose, 40grain--- Velocity: 1470 fps

This compares well with CCI Stingers:
CCI Stinger, 32grain--- Velocity: 1640 fps

For me any of those high velocity copper plated rounds will do fine in my semiautos. I'd hate to use a 22 for self defense but I sure don't think any sane person would break into my house if they knew that my wife or one of my kids had 50 rounds of Interceptor ready in a pistol if they got past me or I wasn't there. So here's my newest project which I guess could be a home defense .22 under the hypothetical question about .22 for home defense. But it is still best used as a Zombie Squirrel eradicator.

With all that said, I don't plan on being caught anywhere with only a .22 pistol.

Posted: 1/29/2014 11:13:08 AM EDT

[#26]

Years ago, before my Wife became comfortable with shooting centerfire handgun cartridges, she kept a Ruger Mk.II at the bedside. She became very proficient with it and could easily and quickly dump all ten rounds into an eye socket sized target at 10 yards. While it is certainly not an ideal round for self-defense, no one is going to press an attack while taking 10 rounds of 40gr. Mini-Mags to the face.

For those without the confidence or physical ability to shoot anything else, an HV.22LR round is better than a Taser, pepper-spray or a rape whistle.

Posted: 1/30/2014 8:10:00 AM EDT

[#27]

I also love that this thread hasn't gone to crap.

For me it is firearm dependent. My Ruger 10/22 I would use CCI Minimags. My M&P 22 on the other hand shoots Remington Golden Bullets flawlessly for whatever crazy reason. Because of the large amount of rounds I have put through that gun I know what she eats, and its RGB. It makes cleaning a pain but if I am going to use my M&P 22 for survival or defense that is what it will be loaded with.

If I had a choice I wouldn't use a hollow point for reasons that have already been stated, but because of the nature of rimfire reliability trumps just about anything else for me. So I pick the round that is proven to be most reliable in my particular firearm.

Posted: 1/30/2014 10:40:11 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
I also love that this thread hasn't gone to crap.

For me it is firearm dependent. My Ruger 10/22 I would use CCI Minimags. My M&P 22 on the other hand shoots Remington Golden Bullets flawlessly for whatever crazy reason. Because of the large amount of rounds I have put through that gun I know what she eats, and its RGB. It makes cleaning a pain but if I am going to use my M&P 22 for survival or defense that is what it will be loaded with.

If I had a choice I wouldn't use a hollow point for reasons that have already been stated, but because of the nature of rimfire reliability trumps just about anything else for me. So I pick the round that is proven to be most reliable in my particular firearm.

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I agree whole-heartedly. I can't wait for this .22LR drought to end so I can get a better variety of ammo to try in my pistol.

Posted: 1/30/2014 11:02:51 AM EDT

[#29]

She became very proficient with it and could easily and quickly dump all ten rounds into an eye socket sized target at 10 yards. While it is certainly not an ideal round for self-defense, no one is going to press an attack while taking 10 rounds of 40gr. Mini-Mags to the face.

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Truer words never written.

Doesn't matter the caliber, really, when you're letting the air out of him. Ten bullets through the CPU or main peripherals takes the "Spirit of the Bayonet" out of a guy pretty quickly.

Posted: 2/13/2014 6:56:35 AM EDT

[#30]

I've watched a few youtube videos where people have chronographed different loads- including Stingers, Mini-Mags and Velocitors--- out of a SR-22.. Given the results - Velocitors would be my choice as that round had the highest FPE - followed by Stingers and Mini-Mags. Expansion is not to be expected at the lower velocities out of a .22LR pistol.

Having fired Mini-mags, Federal, Remington Thunderbolts and Stingers out of mine- so far- well- the Stingers are notable for their fireball display... My order of choice would be Velocitors (can't ignore it having more energy than the rest ), Stingers and Mini-Mags -- in that order. An intermixed load of Stingers and Velocitors might be a good psychological choice-- the fireball display of Stingers might make the gun look more menacing ....

Velocitors(40gr) & minimags(36gr) were about the same average speed- the stingers(32gr) about 70 FPS faster. FPE calculations showed the mini-mags & stingers at 81/82 FPE but the velocitors at 91.5 FPE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FByqXBMuoM8

Posted: 2/13/2014 7:27:16 PM EDT

[#31]

I shoot in my backyard and have what is essentially a wall that I attach my targets to, which is made of 2x6's. At 15 yards, no matter the ammo, the rounds goes right through and keeps on going. I would not want to be on the receiving end of that....

Posted: 2/17/2014 8:33:25 AM EDT

[#32]

22 LR will cap your ass.

Posted: 2/17/2014 11:28:22 PM EDT

[#33]

I saw a show once where all a woman had in the house was a 22 pistol when the place was getting ransacked. Guy chased her around the house but didn't know the place as well as she did. She ended up behind him at one point and let him have one in the head. That did it. If it's all ya got, it's still better than a knife or baseball bat.

Posted: 2/18/2014 12:30:43 AM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:

I saw a show once where all a woman had in the house was a 22 pistol when the place was getting ransacked. Guy chased her around the house but didn't know the place as well as she did. She ended up behind him at one point and let him have one in the head. That did it. If it's all ya got, it's still better than a knife or baseball bat.

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A .22 in your hand beats a .45 in your safe.

Posted: 2/18/2014 11:30:59 AM EDT

[#35]

What about the Aguila SSS- Sniper Sub Sonic, 60gr LRN in a 22 short case. They feed extremely well in both my MkII and 10/22. Velocity is around 900fps or so, but it is a heavier bullet that is bound to deform/fragment.

Posted: 2/18/2014 7:02:44 PM EDT

[#36]

WHAT!!

A .22 for SD?

ARE YOU CRAZEE??? You need a Browning M2 - are you nuts??

Seriously... My vote for the Aguila 60GrSS - big, fat bullet. Like a micro .45LC.

I shredded frying pans at the range using my Phoenix HP22, GSG 1911/22 - imagining flesh hits - it'd be brutal.

Between Aguila 60SS and good ol CCI MiniMags - you'll do well.

Posted: 2/18/2014 9:12:02 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
Here's a great video showing penetration and expansion of four different CCI rimfire loads in ballistic gelatin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvdjdzB_ro

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Quote History

Quoted:
Here's a great video showing penetration and expansion of four different CCI rimfire loads in ballistic gelatin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvdjdzB_ro

Penetration test in clear gel of FOUR .22 LR options from CCI; SEGMENTED HP, VELOCITOR, MINI-MAG HP, AND MINI-MAG SOLID. Shots are from 20 yards using a Ruger 10/22.

Well that video makes both the mini mags look like the better choice. .36 expanded and decent penetration For the hollow point and incredible penetration for the Solid..

Posted: 2/18/2014 10:01:20 PM EDT

[#38]

Not sure if this helps, but if no one else is going to de-rail this thread, I might as well try.

I like to have a NAA revolver with me, loaded with a couple rounds of shotshells...the idea being that I have some kind of decent defense against a snake or some other kind of small critter. If it's a two-legged animal or just a bigger type of creature, I figure maybe I have a chance at blinded them/it and either buying some time to get away or maybe making them change their mind about attacking me.

If those don't work, there are a couple of slugs behind them. Maybe it's not the best SD round, but it's a decent last resort (as far as firearms are concerned).

Posted: 2/18/2014 10:36:00 PM EDT

[#39]

In some situations, a .22LR pistol is / would be my go-to choice for defense.

For the weight, size, suppressability and precision from 0 to 100 yards, I find it difficult to beat a 22 pistol.

My current ammo of choice is the CCI Velocitor. It hits steel plates harder and with better consistency at 100 yards than the Stingers. The Velocitors are also subsonic out of a 5.5" barrel, so they suppress very well. I don't recall whether the Stingers were still subsonic, or not.

Posted: 2/19/2014 12:07:59 AM EDT

[#40]

22LR CCI 40gr Velocitor PLHP impacting ballistic gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDo_PbAvJc
Thank you Brass Fetcher

Posted: 2/20/2014 4:57:48 PM EDT

[#41]

As someone pointed out above, .22LR performance at rifle velocities can be misleading when you're shooting a pistol, particularly a short barreled .22LR pistol or revolver that might work for self defense.

As a general rule, regardless of caliber, if you can't shoot reliably expending hollow points and get a minimum degree of useful penetration, you're better off with solids or FMJs - and with those types of rounds you're generally better off with the round that has the most energy.

In a short barreled .22 pistol it's probably a toss up between the 36 gr Stinger and the 40 grain Velocitor With lower pistol velocities, the Stinger would expand less and penetrate more than it did out of a rifle and may give the Velocitor a run for it's money.

Posted: 2/24/2014 5:20:39 AM EDT

[#42]

This thread needs a reality check. 22 lr.. any and all of them.. are a lousy SD round. The only reason it gets chosen in the US is ignorance or abject poverty. Otherwise there is no such thing as 'had to choose it'. If you can't stand recoil, get a 20 gauge shotgun and use buckshot. Oh.. and thinking you'll get all these hits in a gunfight to make up for that pathetic terminal performance of the round, is just silly.

Posted: 2/24/2014 10:11:14 AM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
This thread needs a reality check. 22 lr.. any and all of them.. are a lousy SD round. The only reason it gets chosen in the US is ignorance or abject poverty. Otherwise there is no such thing as 'had to choose it'. If you can't stand recoil, get a 20 gauge shotgun and use buckshot. Oh.. and thinking you'll get all these hits in a gunfight to make up for that pathetic terminal performance of the round, is just silly.

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Quote History

Quoted:
This thread needs a reality check. 22 lr.. any and all of them.. are a lousy SD round. The only reason it gets chosen in the US is ignorance or abject poverty. Otherwise there is no such thing as 'had to choose it'. If you can't stand recoil, get a 20 gauge shotgun and use buckshot. Oh.. and thinking you'll get all these hits in a gunfight to make up for that pathetic terminal performance of the round, is just silly.

Look...you're not telling anyone in this thread anything they didn't already know and you're impressing no one at all with your brilliance given the already obvious nature of your comments.

Let me refer you back the what the OP said to start with...

Quoted:
Yeah, yeah, I know......................

But if you HAD to use the 22LR as a handgun self defense round, In your opinion, which brand/bullet/etc would you think would be the "best" round for SD purposes?

I'm thinking the good old Mini-Mag solid.

------

Quoted:
I also love that this thread hasn't gone to crap.

For me it is firearm dependent. My Ruger 10/22 I would use CCI Minimags. My M&P 22 on the other hand shoots Remington Golden Bullets flawlessly for whatever crazy reason. Because of the large amount of rounds I have put through that gun I know what she eats, and its RGB. It makes cleaning a pain but if I am going to use my M&P 22 for survival or defense that is what it will be loaded with.

If I had a choice I wouldn't use a hollow point for reasons that have already been stated, but because of the nature of rimfire reliability trumps just about anything else for me. So I pick the round that is proven to be most reliable in my particular firearm.

Well unfortunately it just did.

Posted: 2/24/2014 7:34:16 PM EDT

[#44]

What about the quik-shok, the round that is supposed to break into 3 pieces upon impact? I'm not even sure if they still make them, though

Posted: 2/25/2014 1:13:00 AM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
Look...you're not telling anyone in this thread anything they didn't already know and you're impressing no one at all with your brilliance given the already obvious nature of your comments.

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Whatever. Take your personal issues to GD where that sort of drivel belongs.
---------------------------------------------

One can only hope that the folks in this thread are aware that 22lr is an unacceptable choice for SD. One would not know it from the platitudes about it being better than a sharp stick or the assertions that they can hit someone 10 times.. in the eye. Also, while many may in fact know that they for SD, all 22lr is woefully inadequate, what about those reading this thread that don't know? They would think from the comments that if armed with a 22lr rifle and large magazine they are good to go. When in fact, that's far from true.

If this reminder that 22lr is not and never will be any kind of choice for SD.. then let it be ruined before someone thinks 22lr is OK.

For those of you that aren't familiar with the subject, there is an outstanding section on SD ammo here: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Posted: 2/25/2014 11:23:44 AM EDT

[#46]

I wonder if slower velocities may be better than the hyper velocity stuff. 22lr bullets are pretty fragile/soft so I'd want less deformation and more penetration. If you look at the military test about penetration at various distances they found most rounds penetrated various media better at further distances. The closer distances had the bullets fragmenting resulting in much lower penetration. Granted it wasn't a tissue simulation, but scaled down it might apply to 22lr.

Just a thought.

Posted: 2/25/2014 11:26:04 AM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
What about the quik-shok, the round that is supposed to break into 3 pieces upon impact? I'm not even sure if they still make them, though

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Those don't perform well in gel tests. They are only "good" for small game (I'd still prefer a regular round for less meat damage).

Posted: 2/25/2014 2:26:08 PM EDT

[#48]

Whatever. Take your personal issues to GD where that sort of drivel belongs.

Tell us about your personal experience with the inadequacy of the .22 cal .
I'm always interested in first hand accounts of those involved in shootouts .

Posted: 2/25/2014 6:42:58 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Look...you're not telling anyone in this thread anything they didn't already know and you're impressing no one at all with your brilliance given the already obvious nature of your comments.

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Whatever. Take your personal issues to GD where that sort of drivel belongs.

<cut>

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The OP asked a question about SD ammo for a .22LR pistol. Your response was a 20ga shotgun. That's not even a pistol.

The OP also predicated his question with an upfront acknowledgement that .22LR is not a proper SD round, but if one had to chose ...

Sometimes there are size, weight and possibly noise issues where a 22 pistol might be the best thing in someone's collection for the job. Sometimes, age is a serious factor, and a .22LR or .22MAG is the only thing the person can handle effectively. The OP didn't state what the circumstances were; he was only asking what would perform best.

Posted: 2/26/2014 1:23:40 AM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:
Whatever. Take your personal issues to GD where that sort of drivel belongs.

Tell us about your personal experience with the inadequacy of the .22 cal .
I'm always interested in first hand accounts of those involved in shootouts .

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Oddly enough.. the one shooting I was involved in I was armed with a S&W Model 63. To my knowledge, no hits were scored. In the same situation today I would be armed with my AR or 870. However, this personal experience, nor any anecdotal story has any bearing on what someone should consider for SD other than you had better be prepared ahead of time because it can happen to you. And this, of course, means having a weapon appropriate to the purpose at your disposal.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The 22LR as a SD round. (Page 1 of 2)

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