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Posted: 1/11/2017 11:54:22 PM EDT
So I don't own any 1911's, but I know I want an original Colt 1911a1 from the WWII era.
Browsing on gunbroker I can see they are all $2000+ but what should I be looking for when picking one out/deciding to bid on one?
Certain serial numbers? Certain dates?

Thanks for any help as usual arfcom.
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 12:55:59 PM EDT
[#1]
Youmay want to look at some collectors info such as here to make sure you are comfortable with what is a WW II GI model and parts.

Then you have a decision to make - a all correct pistol or a representative typical mix of GI parts such as would have occurred over the post war life of the pistol until being retired from service.
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 1:35:49 PM EDT
[#2]
The Model 1911 and Model 1911A1 Military and Commercial Pistols, 2nd edition, by Joe Poyer.

Available from North Cape Publications.  $35.95.  Money well spent.
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 2:18:33 PM EDT
[#3]
There are a ton of details to look at to determine if a 1911A1 is correct. Need to study a lot ( clawson's book on the 1911&A1 is probably the best resource)  in ww2 the most common maker was Remington Rand the  typewriter company followed by Colt and Ithaca with much smaller numbers by union switch and signal company and lastly just a few by singer seeing machine. Some ( not all) colts would have the serial
Number of the gun ( frame) stamped on the slide under the firing pin stop. As mentioned an all
Matching Colt unless you get lucky will be a 2k+ investment while a post ww2 rebuild will be in the 1000 dollar range. A real nice rand will run 12-1700
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 3:00:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There are a ton of details to look at to determine if a 1911A1 is correct. Need to study a lot ( clawson's book on the 1911&A1 is probably the best resource)  in ww2 the most common maker was Remington Rand the  typewriter company followed by Colt and Ithaca with much smaller numbers by union switch and signal company and lastly just a few by singer seeing machine. Some ( not all) colts would have the serial
Number of the gun ( frame) stamped on the slide under the firing pin stop. As mentioned an all
Matching Colt unless you get lucky will be a 2k+ investment while a post ww2 rebuild will be in the 1000 dollar range. A real nice rand will run 12-1700
View Quote


Clawson's book is very good.  It is also over $200.
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 8:26:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There are a ton of details to look at to determine if a 1911A1 is correct. Need to study a lot ( clawson's book on the 1911&A1 is probably the best resource)  in ww2 the most common maker was Remington Rand the  typewriter company followed by Colt and Ithaca with much smaller numbers by union switch and signal company and lastly just a few by singer seeing machine. Some ( not all) colts would have the serial
Number of the gun ( frame) stamped on the slide under the firing pin stop. As mentioned an all
Matching Colt unless you get lucky will be a 2k+ investment while a post ww2 rebuild will be in the 1000 dollar range. A real nice rand will run 12-1700
View Quote


Thanks. And from what I've been reading, people have been selling Colt's and saying whether or not the frame/slide have matching serial numbers. I have also noticed that Rands are a little cheaper.

Money isn't really the issue, getting ripped off is. My research journey begins!
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 8:28:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Youmay want to look at some collectors info such as here to make sure you are comfortable with what is a WW II GI model and parts.

Then you have a decision to make - a all correct pistol or a representative typical mix of GI parts such as would have occurred over the post war life of the pistol until being retired from service.
View Quote


I've been reading through that website, thanks for your help!
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 9:10:14 PM EDT
[#7]
I have seen and fired WWII surplus 1911's and I would never buy one. They are inferior in every way to a modern "NEW" pistol and can not be modified without destroying it's collector value.

I am not a collector in the "I love ancient stuff" way, I'm a collector in the "I love great stuff" line of thinking. Unless one of my relatives brought it back from overseas it would holds no interest to me.

Many of the WWII 1911's are selling for as much as a modern Ed Brown or similar custom. All of them are well worn and loose, many of the barrels are pitted. If I'm going to spend that type of money I want a premium firearm.
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 9:36:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have seen and fired WWII surplus 1911's and I would never buy one. They are inferior in every way to a modern "NEW" pistol and can not be modified without destroying it's collector value.

I am not a collector in the "I love ancient stuff" way, I'm a collector in the "I love great stuff" line of thinking. Unless one of my relatives brought it back from overseas it would holds no interest to me.

Many of the WWII 1911's are selling for as much as a modern Ed Brown or similar custom. All of them are well worn and loose, many of the barrels are pitted. If I'm going to spend that type of money I want a premium firearm.
View Quote


Thanks for another way to look at it. I do want more of a collectors piece and not something to shoot very often. But I still have a few months before I'm ready to buy anything $2000+ but we'll see what happens.

I just want an M1 garand and a colt 1911a1
Link Posted: 1/12/2017 11:46:08 PM EDT
[#9]
These guns are bought for historical significance not as daily shooters, just like someone rarely buys a classic corvette and drives it on a daily basis.
From a practical point of view a glock 19 is just as practical a handgun and a hot pink Prius is perfectly adequate to get you to and from work. But who wants to look in the driveway and smile with pride of ownership in that
Link Posted: 1/13/2017 12:03:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
These guns are bought for historical significance not as daily shooters, just like someone rarely buys a classic corvette and drives it on a daily basis.
From a practical point of view a glock 19 is just as practical a handgun and a hot pink Prius is perfectly adequate to get you to and from work. But who wants to look in the driveway and smile with pride of ownership in that
View Quote


That is my whole point! To buy a historical/collector gun that I shoot maybe once.
Link Posted: 1/13/2017 12:04:45 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have seen and fired WWII surplus 1911's and I would never buy one. They are inferior in every way to a modern "NEW" pistol and can not be modified without destroying it's collector value.

I am not a collector in the "I love ancient stuff" way, I'm a collector in the "I love great stuff" line of thinking. Unless one of my relatives brought it back from overseas it would holds no interest to me.

Many of the WWII 1911's are selling for as much as a modern Ed Brown or similar custom. All of them are well worn and loose, many of the barrels are pitted. If I'm going to spend that type of money I want a premium firearm.
View Quote


No, not all of them are ''well worn and loose,'' I find that those who claim this actually know very little about old GI 1911's and A's.

I have a ''few'' GI 45's and almost none of them are ''loose and worn,'' they were built to a far better spec then people think. They were built to a tight enough tolerance that you could interchange parts and they would work fine. Biggest issue is that the slides can crack with higher round counts, nowadays few people buy them as every day shooters, they passed into collectable category quite a while ago.

By the time they were finally phased out, yes, they were pretty damn worn but lets face it, none of those are on the market and the last one made was 40 years ago. I have one's almost 100 years old and they are still FAR tighter then most people imagine.

As far as pitted barrels, blame the corrosive ammo of the time, rifles had the same problems save for the M1 carbine which never had USGI corrosive ammo made for it.

Take away the fact that they ARE a part of Military history and you still have a firearm that has existed in almost the same form for over 100 years, something very few firearms can claim.

OP, take your time, make sure whatever you buy is correct and buy the best example you can afford to. I have never lost one thin dime on  mine, some I own are worth double or triple what I paid now.
Link Posted: 1/13/2017 12:08:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


No, not all of them are ''well worn and loose,'' I find that those who claim this actually know very little about old GI 1911's and A's.

I have a ''few'' GI 45's and almost none of them are ''loose and worn,'' they were built to a far better spec then people think. They were built to a tight enough tolerance that you could interchange parts and they would work fine. Biggest issue is that the slides can crack with higher round counts, nowadays few people buy them as every day shooters, they passed into collectable category quite a while ago.

By the time they were finally phased out, yes, they were pretty damn worn but lets face it, none of those are on the market and the last one made was 40 years ago. I have one's almost 100 years old and they are still FAR tighter then most people imagine.

As far as pitted barrels, blame the corrosive ammo of the time, rifles had the same problems save for the M1 carbine which never had USGI corrosive ammo made for it.

Take away the fact that they ARE a part of Military history and you still have a firearm that has existed in almost the same form for over 100 years, something very few firearms can claim.

OP, take your time, make sure whatever you buy is correct and buy the best example you can afford to. I have never lost one thin dime on  mine, some I own are worth double or triple what I paid now.
View Quote


Thank you
Link Posted: 1/21/2017 6:18:03 PM EDT
[#13]
It won't stop at a garand and a 1911.  Next will be a luger p08, a m1 carbine, and a mosin nagant..at least and probably more.  Trust me...I know!
Link Posted: 1/21/2017 11:47:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Actually last one was made in 1945 so the younger st military issue 1911A1 is now 71 years old
Link Posted: 1/22/2017 6:45:39 PM EDT
[#15]
www.coolgunsite.com

Educate, then buy.
Link Posted: 1/22/2017 9:22:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Actually last one was made in 1945 so the younger st military issue 1911A1 is now 71 years old
View Quote


This actually means almost nothing as many of them that are out there in circulation to the general public are not the same ones that were beating around in military inventory for all those years.

I have a 1945 Colt I picked up a few years ago that is in better shape than the couple year old Berretta 92 I was issued.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:33:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted: 
Money isn't really the issue, getting ripped off is. My research journey begins!
View Quote
You've already learned the most important lesson. 
It takes much knowledge to correctly ID these things, and even more to be sure it wasn't refurbished to appear correct.

I got mine for the same reasons you want one. Nothing else feels or looks exactly like a GI Colt M1911A1. Mine was made in 1944, after they stopped serializing the slides. It is all original/correct except the magazine. I shoot it.


I agree that all the best condition ones were probably out of (active) military hands by 1945.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 11:42:43 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This actually means almost nothing as many of them that are out there in circulation to the general public are not the same ones that were beating around in military inventory for all those years.

I have a 1945 Colt I picked up a few years ago that is in better shape than the couple year old Berretta 92 I was issued.
View Quote

It was meant to clarify a comment made by another poster suggesting some military pistols were much younger.
It actually does matter as metal fatigue and quality of metallurgy is still from a 1945 perspective ( I would not argue with those that say maybe it was actually better then than now, and that tolerances at the time were more uniform and workers paid better attention in those days)
Keep in mind there are several categories of military 1911 on the market right now (my definitions and opinions):
1) what I will call foot locker guns- the pistol found in the box in the attic grandfather brought back from WW2  or Korea that has been untouched for decades. These are the type that will generally be in great shape tight all matching etc.
2) shooter/carrier guns- guns bought by shooting enthusiasts after the wars and actually used and carried a lot - these will often be very worn and loose and frequently mismatched as parts broke or wore out and not worth much beyond shooters
3) 60's era DCM guns- these will be a mixed bag of sometimes great condition guns but often Arsenal refinished or with Arsenal rebuilt parts but generally present nicely and usually most collectors are happy with these especially if they have full provenance ( shipped documents from gov to a person)
4) bubba specials guns that over time were built into competition or carry guns-almost always backed up to a point of beyond rescue. If cheap enough can be decent shooters or do or guns for parts on others.
Link Posted: 1/29/2017 12:08:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Thanks for the latest posts guys. Not having many shooting friends, I count on ar15 to help me out, and you guys havnt let me down yet.
Link Posted: 1/29/2017 2:05:58 AM EDT
[#20]
I like my Army Property marked 1945 Rem Rand. RR frame...Colt slide...1950's S&W Contract barrel...and an interesting history after that. Polished along the way. Not worth squat, mismatched, and a rattle trap...yet it still shoots as well as my HK45C with 100% reliability with the all ammo it was designed to shoot. The only thing modern 1911's do better is sights and feeding +P JHP's.



Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/29/2017 12:03:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Every bit of reading/research you can do now may very well save you a lot of heartache down the road. Any books and articles on the net are a worthwhile investment before diving into buying one. That same advice goes for almost anything collectable. You may very well save yourself from getting ripped off. There are plenty of unscrupulous people out there waiting for a sucker.
Link Posted: 1/29/2017 12:09:54 PM EDT
[#22]
The Service pistol 1911 and A1 books by Charles Clawson are invaluable and well worth the coin. The big book is incredibly expensive and a collectors dream but you can still find the smaller one which is all you really need to check them out before buying. I drag mine with me all over ''just in case'' I run across one at a decent price.

As much as I'd like to loan out my 1911 and other gun books and such, I quit a few years back when I never got some of them back after loaning them out to someone who once posted here, books seem to be one of those things that once loaned, disappear forever.
Link Posted: 2/9/2017 3:33:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Go on "forum.M1911.org" and "forums.1911forum.com" There is a lot of good information that you can print out. Take the information to gun shows and compare what is in the reference material to the pistols you are looking at. Bring a screwdriver and bore light and pen and paper to take notes. You don't have to buy anything, just use their pistols and knowledge.

A great book that is a lot cheaper than Clawson's is "US Automatic Pistols 1920-1945, VOL II, #0-9771286-7-9. You can get it for $70.50 shipped online (cheapest I've found yet) at wetdogstore.com.

I'm new to it as well and this is what I have gathered from experienced people since I started.
Link Posted: 2/11/2017 7:27:56 PM EDT
[#24]
If you want someone else to do the legwork, you can farm it out.
You'll pay a little more but won't have to second guess authenticity.

http://m1911info.com

Viewing his library alone is a wealth of information. You just need to buy the subscription.
Link Posted: 3/26/2017 10:13:07 AM EDT
[#25]
Good thread.

I have been looking on and off for awhile too and see one pop up local from time to time. Not knowing enough though I have passed on them all.

Hope to get one fairly soon
Link Posted: 3/27/2017 12:23:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Well timed thread! I just picked up a WW1 colt for cheap, now I am really wanting a WW2 model.  A lot of info to absorb.
Link Posted: 3/28/2017 10:31:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Good thread...interested in the book recommendations as being 'had' seems pretty easy in shopping for historic m1911als.

Or, one could hold out hope for the CMP sales possibility.
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